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Cuba Sanctions

Arkady

President
Here are a few things to think about, when it comes to the sanctions Trump is rumored to be preparing to impose on Cuba.

First, such sanctions amount to restriction of American liberties. We Americans are going to be deprived of our right to travel to and trade with Cuba. That's a loss of freedom that other advanced nations are not imposing on their people. A Canadian, for example, will still be free to take a holiday in Havana, but you won't.

Second, such sanctions are almost certainly counter-productive if the purpose is urging Cuba towards reform. One reason Cuba has changed so little over the last several decades is that we've deprived them of much of a glimpse of our "city on a hill." Every time a smiling, wealthy American strolls down a Cuban beach or strolls into a Cuban store, is a time that the Cuban communist rhetoric about the US rings a little more hollow. The more we interact with them, the more they'll want what we have.

Third, such sanctions can't be justified for Cuba and not elsewhere on human rights grounds. Sure, Cuba is a country where people are made poor and miserable by an oppressive regime. But there are over 100 countries where people are poorer and more miserable, on average, and a great many of them have regimes so oppressive that the people would find the Castro regime to be a wonderful relief. Yet almost no other nations have the restrictions we put on Cuba.

Fourth, if we're going to try to justify sanctions against Cuba not by the way the Cuban government treats its people, but by the way it interacts with the rest of the world, there's even less justification there. Cuba isn't a state sponsor of terrorism -- neither in the official designation, nor in the de facto way that some "friendly" nations like Saudi Arabia are. We'd do better to put sanctions on Saudi Arabia, if we're going to try to make sanctions work, until Saudi Arabia stops promulgating hateful forms of Islamic education. Or how about travel restrictions for people coming to and from Russia? Russia is arguably the most destructive nation in the world today -- systematically subverting democracies abroad, propping up brutal dictatorships, and engaging in military expansionism. It just doesn't make sense to be friendly with nations like that even as we crack down on Cuba.
 
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Sickofleft

Guest
All lifting sanctions has done for Cuba is ensure that Raul's son will be in place to take over when the time comes. There will be no reform.

Raul has used the lifting of sanctions to expand the military role in the economy to the point where, if you travel to Cuba you may as well make out your check directly to the Cuban army.

It's not our job to interfere in the internal on goings of brutal dictatorships but we don't have to make it easier for them to suppress their own people. That is all the lifting of sanctions has done.

I don't see the point in reestablishing those sanctions mind you because I feel the damage has been done.

PS. The Left's obsession and fear of all things Russian, something Republicans have been talking about for years, is utter bullshit. The Russians did not cost you the last election, a failed 8yrs of President Obama and a horrendous Clinton as your standard bearer did that all on it's own.
 

Craig

Senator
Supporting Member
All lifting sanctions has done for Cuba is ensure that Raul's son will be in place to take over when the time comes. There will be no reform.

Raul has used the lifting of sanctions to expand the military role in the economy to the point where, if you travel to Cuba you may as well make out your check directly to the Cuban army.

It's not our job to interfere in the internal on goings of brutal dictatorships but we don't have to make it easier for them to suppress their own people. That is all the lifting of sanctions has done.

I don't see the point in reestablishing those sanctions mind you because I feel the damage has been done.

PS. The Left's obsession and fear of all things Russian, something Republicans have been talking about for years, is utter bullshit. The Russians did not cost you the last election, a failed 8yrs of President Obama and a horrendous Clinton as your standard bearer did that all on it's own.
...Donald Trump says he supports President Barack Obama's decision to reengage diplomatically with Cuba.

"50 years is enough," Trump said in an interview with the Daily Caller published Tuesday, referring to Obama's decision to re-establish U.S. ties with Cuba.

"I think it's fine. I think it's fine, but we should have made a better deal," Trump added. "The concept of opening with Cuba is fine.
"...

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/08/politics/donald-trump-cuba-diplomatic-opening/index.html


In the meantime, we sell weapons to Saudi Arabia...AND Qatar...

Seems a tad ridiculous to me. Well, more than a tad. It's entirely ludicrous.
 
where in the constitution does it say we have an absolute right to travel to nations which are working to undermine the US government?
 

UPNYA2

Mayor
Here are a few things to think about, when it comes to the sanctions Trump is rumored to be preparing to impose on Cuba.

First, such sanctions amount to restriction of American liberties. We Americans are going to be deprived of our right to travel to and trade with Cuba. That's a loss of freedom that other advanced nations are not imposing on their people. A Canadian, for example, will still be free to take a holiday in Havana, but you won't.

Second, such sanctions are almost certainly counter-productive if the purpose is urging Cuba towards reform. One reason Cuba has changed so little over the last several decades is that we've deprived them of much of a glimpse of our "city on a hill." Every time a smiling, wealthy American strolls down a Cuban beach or strolls into a Cuban store, is a time that the Cuban communist rhetoric about the US rings a little more hollow. The more we interact with them, the more they'll want what we have.

Third, such sanctions can't be justified for Cuba and not elsewhere on human rights grounds. Sure, Cuba is a country where people are made poor and miserable by an oppressive regime. But there are over 100 countries where people are poorer and more miserable, on average, and a great many of them have regimes so oppressive that the people would find the Castro regime to be a wonderful relief. Yet almost no other nations have the restrictions we put on Cuba.

Fourth, if we're going to try to justify sanctions against Cuba not by the way the Cuban government treats its people, but by the way it interacts with the rest of the world, there's even less justification there. Cuba isn't a state sponsor of terrorism -- neither in the official designation, nor in the de facto way that some "friendly" nations like Saudi Arabia are. We'd do better to put sanctions on Saudi Arabia, if we're going to try to make sanctions work, until Saudi Arabia stops promulgating hateful forms of Islamic education. Or how about travel restrictions for people coming to and from Russia? Russia is arguably the most destructive nation in the world today -- systematically subverting democracies abroad, propping up brutal dictatorships, and engaging in military expansionism. It just doesn't make sense to be friendly with nations like that even as we crack down on Cuba.
Fifth, it's Donald Trump's decision for God's sake so it just can't be acceptable, period.
 

Arkady

President
All lifting sanctions has done for Cuba is ensure that Raul's son will be in place to take over when the time comes. There will be no reform.
Quite the opposite, Decades of sanctions helped to keep the Cuban regime propped up, by isolating Cubans from US influences, and giving the dictatorship an external target on which to focus their blame for how little economic progress the island is making. A foreign enemy to draw the people's ire is a dictator's best friend.

The Russians did not cost you the last election
I have no idea whether the damage the Russians did with their interference was enough to swing the election. I'd need to look back at the timing of the smear stories fed by Russian hacking, and how polls reacted, to take an informed view on that. But the point isn't that they cost us the election. The point is that they TRIED to steal the election for Trump, whether they succeeded or not, just as they tried (and failed) to steal the French election for Le Pen, and as they've interfered with so many other recent elections around the world on behalf of the right-wing/isolationist candidates. If we're going to use the tool of sanctions to try to force a nation to mind its manners, Russia's a much more sensible place than Cuba.

a failed 8yrs of President Obama
As a quick reminder, nearly every measure of social and economic well-being in America took a decided turn for the better during Obama's eight years. I know right-wingers tend to forget that (imprisoned, as you are, in a hermetically sealed universe of dishonest political propaganda masquerading as news), so it's worth reminding you from time to time.
 

Arkady

President
Fifth, it's Donald Trump's decision for God's sake so it just can't be acceptable, period.
That's a non-factor. I agreed with Trump when he supported lifting the sanctions. I disagree with him now that he wants to reimpose them. If he reverses himself yet again and wants to go even farther in liberalizing relations with Cuba than Obama did, I'll support him on that. For people like me, it's the principle of the policy that matters, not the personality putting it in place. For most on the right, by comparison, it's all about the personalities. They were fine with Trump supporting lifting the sanctions and they're fine with him reimposing them, and they'd be fine if he lifted them still further, because the policy isn't important them. They support the Dear Leader whatever he does.
 

UPNYA2

Mayor
That's a non-factor. I agreed with Trump when he supported lifting the sanctions. I disagree with him now that he wants to reimpose them. If he reverses himself yet again and wants to go even farther in liberalizing relations with Cuba than Obama did, I'll support him on that. For people like me, it's the principle of the policy that matters, not the personality putting it in place. For most on the right, by comparison, it's all about the personalities. They were fine with Trump supporting lifting the sanctions and they're fine with him reimposing them, and they'd be fine if he lifted them still further, because the policy isn't important them. They support the Dear Leader whatever he does.
Yeah, I got that...........

You agree with nothing a republican does unless it goes, "even farther in liberalizing" policies as if a di m was running the show. THEN you support their views.

What will you enlighten us all with next? Water is wet perhaps?

Some things don't even need to be said.
 

Days

Commentator
Trump is slowly buckling to the establishment, and it is a shame, cuz the establishment was always wrong on Cuba.
 

Arkady

President
Trump is slowly buckling to the establishment, and it is a shame, cuz the establishment was always wrong on Cuba.
Agreed -- other than I'd say it isn't "slowly." If you look at those of his views that were "anti-establishment" during the campaign (lower military spending, raise taxes on the rich, label China a currency manipulator, eradicate the export-import bank, re-engage with Cuba, reject the one-china policy, and so on), it's hard to think of any such position that is likely to survive his first five months in office. That's a pretty damned quick surrender to the Republican establishment. At this point, what does he still support that the Republican establishment doesn't like? Anything?
 

Days

Commentator
Agreed -- other than I'd say it isn't "slowly." If you look at those of his views that were "anti-establishment" during the campaign (lower military spending, raise taxes on the rich, label China a currency manipulator, eradicate the export-import bank, re-engage with Cuba, reject the one-china policy, and so on), it's hard to think of any such position that is likely to survive his first five months in office. That's a pretty damned quick surrender to the Republican establishment. At this point, what does he still support that the Republican establishment doesn't like? Anything?
When you come into power, you have to fill out a cabinet, you enter into this group think and you depend on rule by committee to execute your ideas... I'm not sure he has changed his views as much as his views have been processed by the machine. Either way, you are right, not many of those campaign ideas survived getting elected.
 
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Sickofleft

Guest
...Donald Trump says he supports President Barack Obama's decision to reengage diplomatically with Cuba.

"50 years is enough," Trump said in an interview with the Daily Caller published Tuesday, referring to Obama's decision to re-establish U.S. ties with Cuba.

"I think it's fine. I think it's fine, but we should have made a better deal," Trump added. "The concept of opening with Cuba is fine.
"...

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/08/politics/donald-trump-cuba-diplomatic-opening/index.html


In the meantime, we sell weapons to Saudi Arabia...AND Qatar...

Seems a tad ridiculous to me. Well, more than a tad. It's entirely ludicrous.
I am with you on the selling arms to Saudi's or Qatar but the only thing we have done in Cuba is help the Castro's carry on.
 
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Sickofleft

Guest
Quite the opposite, Decades of sanctions helped to keep the Cuban regime propped up, by isolating Cubans from US influences, and giving the dictatorship an external target on which to focus their blame for how little economic progress the island is making. A foreign enemy to draw the people's ire is a dictator's best friend.
Yawn. Since we lifted the sanctions I expect free and fair elections there any day now? What date will those take place? o_O

What you fail to understand is that with the lifting of sanctions it has allowed the Castro's (Raul) to buy more loyalty and influence in the Cuban Army making it all the easier for his son to carry on the family tradition. All it has done is shored up the support for the Castro's going forward. All we have done, all Obama did was make it easier for that particular Communist Government to survive now with more money then ever.....Bravo another great foreign policy achievement....

But hey, I am sure when Raul's son does take over the left will declare him a reformer right up until he in fine Castro family tradition starts lining up and shooting people who do not care for him.
 

Arkady

President
When you come into power, you have to fill out a cabinet, you enter into this group think and you depend on rule by committee to execute your ideas... I'm not sure he has changed his views as much as his views have been processed by the machine. Either way, you are right, not many of those campaign ideas survived getting elected.
I think this is in large part because he had no actual political beliefs. He simply said whatever he thought the audience in front of him wanted to hear at the moment. When the audience changes from the yahoo masses, to the Republican establishment, his beliefs change with it.

I don't think that's inevitable. For example, consider Bill Clinton. He took many positions that were contrary to mainstream Democratic thinking at the time, for good and ill. His DLC-style triangulation was a real break with most recent Democratic presidential candidates and a real affront to the Democratic establishment at the time (which is why he got bashed pretty hard from the left as well as the right). Yet that posiitoning definitely survived once he came to office. He didn't suddenly turn into southern-fried Dukakis once he was in office, the way Trump has basically turned into a dumber, more racist, and more corrupt Romney.
 
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Arkady

President
Yawn. Since we lifted the sanctions I expect free and fair elections there any day now? What date will those take place? o_O
We didn't lift the sanctions. We eased the briefly, and now they're being tightened. I wouldn't hold your breath expecting fair elections any time soon, with that track record.

All it has done is shored up the support for the Castro's going forward.
Yes, I understand that's the standard talking point of the GOP. But there's no reason to believe it's true. The Castros have held onto power just fine for 60 years, and they already survived the first big challenge of transition from Fidel to Raul. Our sanctions helped make their regime that durable. Now it seems Trump wants to do his part to make sure it lasts another 60 years. And, honestly, I can't blame him from a cynical political perspective. The longer the communist regime endures in Cuba, the longer the exile community hands the Republicans the all-important state of Florida. Of course he would want those sanctions back in place to reduce the risk of there being reform.
 
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Sickofleft

Guest
We didn't lift the sanctions. We eased the briefly, and now they're being tightened. I wouldn't hold your breath expecting fair elections any time soon, with that track record.



Yes, I understand that's the standard talking point of the GOP. But there's no reason to believe it's true. The Castros have held onto power just fine for 60 years, and they already survived the first big challenge of transition from Fidel to Raul. Our sanctions helped make their regime that durable. Now it seems Trump wants to do his part to make sure it lasts another 60 years. And, honestly, I can't blame him from a cynical political perspective. The longer the communist regime endures in Cuba, the longer the exile community hands the Republicans the all-important state of Florida. Of course he would want those sanctions back in place to reduce the risk of there being reform.
Right, I am sure Trump the life long Democrat from Queens has an understanding of the voting dynamics of Miami........o_O.......one of us is giving Trump a lot of credit and it's not me.

No reason to believe its true? You either have no idea what is going on in Cuba or you are ignoring the fact the since the sanctions have been lifted the Cuban Army is more entwined in the economy then ever. Again ensuring that the next big transition from Raul to his son goes smoothly as possible. The smart move would have been to wait out Raul and see who took over, not flood the Cuban economy with US dollars.....
 

Arkady

President
Right, I am sure Trump the life long Democrat from Queens has an understanding of the voting dynamics of Miami
Yes, I'm sure of that, too. Trump maybe shockingly ignorant, but even he couldn't have somehow failed to learn about the Cuban exile community's strong Republican voting record, or its concentration in Florida, or how close Florida tends to be in presidential elections. Hell, you could ask a tenth-grader in Peoria and he'd be aware of those things. A septuagenarian who'd recently won a Republican nomination against a pair of Cuban Americans would, of course, be well aware of it.

The smart move would have been to wait out Raul and see who took over, not flood the Cuban economy with US dollars.....
The smart move was to try to diminish the force of the sanctions before they could ensure our third straight Castro in the leadership spot. Sadly, Trump seems to want to keep that regime in place and, as I mentioned, one can't blame him from a partisan political perspective: the communist regime in Cuba is the gift that keeps on giving from a Republican political perspective.
 
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Sickofleft

Guest
The smart move was to try to diminish the force of the sanctions before they could ensure our third straight Castro in the leadership spot. Sadly, Trump seems to want to keep that regime in place and, as I mentioned, one can't blame him from a partisan political perspective: the communist regime in Cuba is the gift that keeps on giving from a Republican political perspective.
Is this the new talking point to cover yet another ill advised Obama policy decision? Again, you are either lying or don't understand what is happening. Neither would surprise me.
 

Arkady

President
Is this the new talking point to cover yet another ill advised Obama policy decision? Again, you are either lying or don't understand what is happening. Neither would surprise me.
I've advocated ending our catastrophically counter-productive sanctions on Cuba for well over twenty years now -- since before the brain-dead Helms-Burton Act. I supported Obama because he made a good policy decision, rather than thinking it was a good policy decision because Obama made it. I suspect you're projecting here -- that you dutifully got on board with sanctions as soon as Trump reversed himself on the question, because Dear Leader is always right. Then you scrambled to find some way to justify that view, using the usual mass markets for right-wing talking points.

As proof that my position was consistent and consistently well-informed, here's one of my earliest posts on this forum, long before Obama got on board with reducing the sanctions:

https://www.politicaljack.com/threads/the-embargo-on-cuba.18604/#post-260881

That's four and a half years before Obama acted. At the time, Obama and I were on opposite sides of the issue. I stayed consistent: I had the view when Obama was against it and Trump was for it, and I have the view now when Obama is for it and Trump is against it.
 
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