Joe Biden: Man Who Stopped Texas Church Murder Spree Shouldn't Have Had That Gun

[Sickofleft]

I've told you before that I'd had the chance, with a group of vets, to meet with Biden. He is certainly long winded...if you asked him for the time he'd tell you how to build a watch...
but he is also very knowledgeable. His information on Iraq was detailed and well thought out.

Biden did not say that we should not order the raid...

Biden’s statement that he advised the president at the 2011 meeting to “make one more pass” with an unmanned drone to make sure that Bin Laden was there squares with the historical account that Biden and Obama have given in the past.

According to Politico he said "Don't Go", I don't know was not in the room but there seems to be people involved who feels he was against it.

Iraq? Really? He was for the war, he was against the Troop surge and went along with the pull out.

I would say on those three things, wrong, wrong and wrong.

Lot of balls for a guy who opposed the surge and went along with a pull out for a campaign slogan later on............

 

[middleview]

True. No argument.

But please explain why you would bring that up? Does that make Biden trustworthy........no....no it does not.

I bring it up because the instances of Joe making shit up is pretty debatable...while Trump just can't help himself.

 

[Sickofleft]

1. The speech he gave was the same one he had given a dozen times before...one time he failed to attribute it to the original author...but he had on other occasions...it was hardly an attempt to steal a quote.
2. So you have people like Ari Fleischer...the PR guy, saying either that he doesn't remember the meeting or that it didn't happen. Gee...Ari was such an honest guy I'm sure he wouldn't lie....

You can say a lot of things about George W. Bush but he was smart enough not to ever meet alone with Biden, they never did.

So this whole :

Biden also told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer and Gloria Borger that former President Bush had described himself as a leader during a private Oval Office meeting, and Biden had replied: “Mr. President, turn and around look behind you. No one is following.”

They never met alone, nobody on earth remembers this but Joe..............

Good luck with that.

As for Joe's problem with other peoples speeches, ummmmm.... had a serious incident when he was a law student for plagiarizing from a 1965 law review, lied about his academic record at campaign events during his first run for the Presidency and he has been found to ummm shall we say "borrow" segments from other speeches with out giving credit..................

Joe spins a good yarn and he is entertaining but...........

 

[middleview]

According to Politico he said "Don't Go", I don't know was not in the room but there seems to be people involved who feels he was against it.

Iraq? Really? He was for the war, he was against the Troop surge and went along with the pull out.

I would say on those three things, wrong, wrong and wrong.

Lot of balls for a guy who opposed the surge and went along with a pull out for a campaign slogan later on............

1. The Surge was hardly the success Bush & Rumsfeld claimed.
2. Biden supported the Sunni Awakening movement and the payments to Iraqi leaders in the Sunni triangle that created the anti-Al Qaeda militias.

Those were two different events. You keep claiming that Obama could have ignored the Bush status of forces agreement and kept troops in the country. That would have done two things....It would have stated that signing an agreement with the president of the United States doesn't mean shit as soon as he is not president any more....and it would have rallied more Iraqis to the fight against the US troops and the government...as they would see it more of an unwanted occupation.

Add to that the invasion by ISIS into Iraq in 2014 would have happened anyway unless you were willing to have US troops defend Iraqi ground when Iraqi troops would not.

 

[georgephillip]

Former Vice President Joe Biden appeared on NBC’s "Today" on Monday where he stated that the hero who shot the Texas church gunman should not have had the weapon he used to stop the murder spree.

Some accounts of this incident are claiming Kelley took his own life?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/07/texas-church-gunman-devin-kelley-escaped-mental-health-facility/

"Devin Kelley, 26, committed suicide after opening fire in Sutherland Springs, attacking a church where his in-laws regularly worshiped. His grandmother-in-law was among the victims."

 

[Bugsy McGurk]

Some accounts of this incident are claiming Kelley took his own life?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/07/texas-church-gunman-devin-kelley-escaped-mental-health-facility/

"Devin Kelley, 26, committed suicide after opening fire in Sutherland Springs, attacking a church where his in-laws regularly worshiped. His grandmother-in-law was among the victims."

He did shoot himself, but apparently the neighbor shot him first.

 

[Sickofleft]

Those were two different events. You keep claiming that Obama could have ignored the Bush status of forces agreement and kept troops in the country. That would have done two things....It would have stated that signing an agreement with the president of the United States doesn't mean shit as soon as he is not president any more....and it would have rallied more Iraqis to the fight against the US troops and the government...as they would see it more of an unwanted occupation.

He could not have ignored SOFA but he could have gotten a new one in place, he did not. He "ended" the Iraq war as irresponsibly as it was started all for a campaign slogan.

Add to that the invasion by ISIS into Iraq in 2014 would have happened anyway unless you were willing to have US troops defend Iraqi ground when Iraqi troops would not.

We will never know because Obama made the strategic blunder of pulling everyone out in 2012 but I think with a contingent of US forces still in Iraq (10-20K), as we are in Germany, Japan and South Korea etc., ISIS never leaves Syria. Even if that did this would have been long over by now.

Don't believe me, just think how well the Iraqi troops have done with just 6k of our guys in support have done..........

 

[middleview]

You can say a lot of things about George W. Bush but he was smart enough not to ever meet alone with Biden, they never did.

So this whole :

Biden also told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer and Gloria Borger that former President Bush had described himself as a leader during a private Oval Office meeting, and Biden had replied: “Mr. President, turn and around look behind you. No one is following.”

They never met alone, nobody on earth remembers this but Joe..............

Good luck with that.

As for Joe's problem with other peoples speeches, ummmmm.... had a serious incident when he was a law student for plagiarizing from a 1965 law review, lied about his academic record at campaign events during his first run for the Presidency and he has been found to ummm shall we say "borrow" segments from other speeches with out giving credit..................

Joe spins a good yarn and he is entertaining but...........

The deal with the law school issue was that while he had a number of references to the Law Review he only had one foot note attributing anything to the review. His explanation was that he didn't understand that each and every reference had to attributed...he was allowed to retake the course. BFD.

 

[georgephillip]

He did shoot himself, but apparently the neighbor shot him first.

Right.
Apparently, Kelley was shot once in the leg and once in the torso before taking his own life.

 

[Bugsy McGurk]

He could not have ignored SOFA but he could have gotten a new one in place, he did not. He "ended" the Iraq war as irresponsibly as it was started all for a campaign slogan.



We will never know because Obama made the strategic blunder of pulling everyone out in 2012 but I think with a contingent of US forces still in Iraq (10-20K), as we are in Germany, Japan and South Korea etc., ISIS never leaves Syria. Even if that did this would have been long over by now.

Don't believe me, just think how well the Iraqi troops have done with just 6k of our guys in support have done..........

The "strategic blunder" of following GWB's troop withdrawal agreement.

;-)

 

[Sickofleft]

The deal with the law school issue was that while he had a number of references to the Law Review he only had one foot note attributing anything to the review. His explanation was that he didn't understand that each and every reference had to attributed...he was allowed to retake the course. BFD.

You don't see a pattern here?

 

[Bugsy McGurk]

He could not have ignored SOFA but he could have gotten a new one in place, he did not. He "ended" the Iraq war as irresponsibly as it was started all for a campaign slogan.



We will never know because Obama made the strategic blunder of pulling everyone out in 2012 but I think with a contingent of US forces still in Iraq (10-20K), as we are in Germany, Japan and South Korea etc., ISIS never leaves Syria. Even if that did this would have been long over by now.

Don't believe me, just think how well the Iraqi troops have done with just 6k of our guys in support have done..........

Obama had the Iraq army remade and had them do the ground fighting, with ISIS being trounced with minimal US casualties. A brilliant plan, well executed.

You should watch and learn and send your thanks to Obama.

 

[freyasman]

Right.
Apparently, Kelley was shot once in the leg and once in the torso before taking his own life.

And he didn't kill any one else after he was confronted, did he?
Best thing you can do with these guys is get after them as fast as you can, with as much as you can..... put them down like dogs.
http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/new-rapid-mass-murder-research-from-ron-borsch
From the link;
"WHO HAS BEEN STOPPING THE ACTIVE KILLER, AND HOW?

Before investing in any theory or propaganda, enlightened administrators and trainers should exclusively examine only successful aborts. “Stopping the killing” only occurs in slightly over half of “Rapid Mass Murder”© incidents. Significant, documented, verifiable, and repeatable research has identified what strategies and tactics work in stopping the killing. In summary, they are:



1. Citizens, mostly unarmed, perform two thirds of all “Rapid Mass Murder”© aborts.

2. In citizen aborts, initiation by a single citizen stops the killing eight out of ten times.

3. Law enforcement performs one third of all “Rapid Mass Murder”© aborts.

4. In law enforcement aborts, initiation by a single officer stops the killing seven out of 10 times."

 

[freyasman]

And he didn't kill any one else after he was confronted, did he?
Best thing you can do with these guys is get after them as fast as you can, with as much as you can..... put them down like dogs.
http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/new-rapid-mass-murder-research-from-ron-borsch
From the link;
"WHO HAS BEEN STOPPING THE ACTIVE KILLER, AND HOW?

Before investing in any theory or propaganda, enlightened administrators and trainers should exclusively examine only successful aborts. “Stopping the killing” only occurs in slightly over half of “Rapid Mass Murder”© incidents. Significant, documented, verifiable, and repeatable research has identified what strategies and tactics work in stopping the killing. In summary, they are:



1. Citizens, mostly unarmed, perform two thirds of all “Rapid Mass Murder”© aborts.

2. In citizen aborts, initiation by a single citizen stops the killing eight out of ten times.

3. Law enforcement performs one third of all “Rapid Mass Murder”© aborts.

4. In law enforcement aborts, initiation by a single officer stops the killing seven out of 10 times."

Also;
"In looking at Ron’s research, it is clear that time is of the essence in stopping an active shooter. As cops, we need to be training in single officer response tactics. If a single unarmed citizen stops more than half of all rapid mass murders, why are we cops (who have pistols, rifles, and armor) waiting outside until we can get a “team” to confront the shooter? We really need to change our thinking about this type of response.



We also need to be providing armed citizens with “advanced CCW” classes that prepare them to deal with an active killer. There is far more likely to be an armed citizen already on the scene of a rapid mass murder than a uniformed cop. We need to empower those folks with the knowledge they need to neutralize the shooter."

 

[middleview]

He could not have ignored SOFA but he could have gotten a new one in place, he did not. He "ended" the Iraq war as irresponsibly as it was started all for a campaign slogan.



We will never know because Obama made the strategic blunder of pulling everyone out in 2012 but I think with a contingent of US forces still in Iraq (10-20K), as we are in Germany, Japan and South Korea etc., ISIS never leaves Syria. Even if that did this would have been long over by now.

Don't believe me, just think how well the Iraqi troops have done with just 6k of our guys in support have done..........

He offered a new SOFA. Maliki turned it down. How many times do I have to remind you of that? Was it a strategic blunder by Bush to sign the Sofa requiring all US troops withdrawn at the end of 2011?

Do you actually think the same contingent of US troops that would have been there as part of a training mission would be the exact same configuration that are supporting Iraqi troops in the field today? The mission would have been entirely different. There are far more special forces guys there now than there would have been in 2012...more artillery, more intel....

ISIS would have invaded anyway...most of ISIS leadership is former Iraqi army officers and they wanted their country back.

Why you think it was the US responsibility to defend Iraq is beyond me. Obama's strategy defeated ISIS and kept US casualties to a minimum and you still bitch about it.

 

[middleview]

You don't see a pattern here?

How could we possibly elect a guy who didn't know the rules for attribution!!!

The pattern I see is the repeated focus on irrelevant and trivial accusations against a guy who spent his life in service to the country. He'd be far wealthier if he'd stayed in private practice.

 

[Sickofleft]

How could we possibly elect a guy who didn't know the rules for attribution!!!

The pattern I see is the repeated focus on irrelevant and trivial accusations against a guy who spent his life in service to the country. He'd be far wealthier if he'd stayed in private practice.

I see a pathological liar.

 

[Sickofleft]

He offered a new SOFA. Maliki turned it down. How many times do I have to remind you of that? Was it a strategic blunder by Bush to sign the Sofa requiring all US troops withdrawn at the end of 2011?

We have been over this a million times. He made no serious offer, in fact they made offers they knew would not be taken because the political wing of the White House wanted out and they got out.

Do you actually think the same contingent of US troops that would have been there as part of a training mission would be the exact same configuration that are supporting Iraqi troops in the field today? The mission would have been entirely different. There are far more special forces guys there now than there would have been in 2012...more artillery, more intel....

That makes sense. Why would the Iraqi's agree to continue accepting our troops if the ones we left would have been unable to support the Iraqi Military if the shit hit the fan... No wonder Malki said no.

Just furthers my case that they (Obama Administration) did not make one serious offer.

ISIS would have invaded anyway...most of ISIS leadership is former Iraqi army officers and they wanted their country back.

I did not know you were so intimate with the operational details of ISIS. Former Iraqi military who if the US would still have been in place probably would not have signed up to get their asses handed to them again.....but since our forces were not there..............

Why you think it was the US responsibility to defend Iraq is beyond me. Obama's strategy defeated ISIS and kept US casualties to a minimum and you still bitch about it.

Because it was unnecessary, if he had done the responsible thing with any thought to the long term strategic interest of the US, instead of his [Unwelcome language removed] re-election campaign none of this would have been necessary..."Ended the War in Iraq" ...only to send 6K guys back.........

 

[middleview]

We have been over this a million times. He made no serious offer, in fact they made offers they knew would not be taken because the political wing of the White House wanted out and they got out.

That makes sense. Why would the Iraqi's agree to continue accepting our troops if the ones we left would have been unable to support the Iraqi Military if the shit hit the fan... No wonder Malki said no.

Just furthers my case that they (Obama Administration) did not make one serious offer.

I did not know you were so intimate with the operational details of ISIS. Former Iraqi military who if the US would still have been in place probably would not have signed up to get their asses handed to them again.....but since our forces were not there..............

Because it was unnecessary, if he had done the responsible thing with any thought to the long term strategic interest of the US, instead of his [Unwelcome language removed] re-election campaign none of this would have been necessary..."Ended the War in Iraq" ...only to send 6K guys back.........

1. The sticking point on the new SOFA didn't have shit to do with the makeup of the units that would remain. It was entirely about the jurisdiction of Iraqi courts over our personnel accused of crimes in Iraq. Obama was unwilling to compromise on that. It would seem that neither was Maliki. He saw that as political suicide.

2. You keep saying it wasn't a serious offer. What was "un-serious" about it?

It was Maliki's decision...after a full year of negotiations, to turn it down.

We spent billions arming and training the Iraqi army...which would have been unnecessary if Bush/Rummie had not decided to disband the Iraqi army...creating the insurgency. Why did the Iraqi army run when ISIS entered the country? Could it have been because by 2014 the leadership of the military had been gutted and replaced by inexperience cronies of Maliki's who paid as much as a million bucks for the rank?
Why would someone pay that kind of money to be a general? Because then you could get rid of the soldiers but continue to draw their pay....there were supposed to be 50,000 troops in Anbar when ISIS rolled in. The generals were the first to run...followed by the other political appointees to rank.

None of that would have changed with US troops there. Our guys would have been the only combat units to fight ISIS....and we'd have taken a lot of casualties fighting for land the Iraqis didn't want to fight for.

 

[middleview]

I did not know you were so intimate with the operational details of ISIS. Former Iraqi military who if the US would still have been in place probably would not have signed up to get their asses handed to them again.....but since our forces were not there..............

What the hell are you talking about....the information on the genesis of Al Qaeda in Iraq into ISIS is well documented. Announcing that all US troops are leaving by 2011 was all the encouragement AQI and later ISIS needed...lay low and wait until they are gone.

As long as the Iraqi army that we'd trained and armed and the Sunni Militias were in place ISIS stayed in Syria. As soon as Maliki dismantled the officer corps and quit paying the Sunni militias...ISIS invaded.

Where do you think the officers and men of Saddam's army were going to go? AQI and later ISIS paid them pretty well....and unless they could return to the Iraqi army they had no jobs...