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Trump loses to Obama...in monthly job gains

D

Deleted member 21794

Guest
His problem is the same as Krugman's:

http://www.realclearmarkets.com/video/2017/10/10/krugman_says_stocks_not_in_obvious_bubble_but_risks_exis.html

He has an "open relationship" with the facts...
Hmmm.... it turns out Krugman was an advisor for Enron in 1999. Yeah, that really worked out well (emphasis added)

"In 1999 Paul Krugman was paid $50,000 by Enron as a consultant on its “advisory board,” and that same year he wrote a glowing article about Enron for Fortune magazine. But he would change his tune. After Enron collapsed in 2001, Krugman wrote several columns excoriating the company. (One featured what may be the most absurd howler in the history of op-ed journalism: “I predict that in the years ahead Enron, not Sept. 11, will come to be seen as the greater turning point in U.S. society.”) In most of these columns Krugman worked hard to link Enron to the Bush administration, and in one he actually blamed Enron’s consultants for the company’s collapse — while neglecting to mention that he, too, had been an Enron consultant."

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/225981

Holy crap, you were more right about the similarities between Krugman and *middleview* than I initially thought and agreed.
 
D

Deleted member 21794

Guest
I lived in Santa Monica when Reagan was president. There were lots of homeless then...are you saying the number of homeless as of 2008 (bush recession) were the same as 1932?

Has anyone called out the Army to attack a homeless camp yet? Hoover did.
Wow, there were a lot of homeless people in Santa Monica when Reagan was president. Very compelling.... uh... I guess.... meaningless anecdote?
 

redtide

Mayor
Wow, there were a lot of homeless people in Santa Monica when Reagan was president. Very compelling.... uh... I guess.... meaningless anecdote?
rent control caused much of the homeless problem in Santa Monica that along with many other libber programs
 

Raoul_Luke

I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
Hmmm.... it turns out Krugman was an advisor for Enron in 1999. Yeah, that really worked out well (emphasis added)

"In 1999 Paul Krugman was paid $50,000 by Enron as a consultant on its “advisory board,” and that same year he wrote a glowing article about Enron for Fortune magazine. But he would change his tune. After Enron collapsed in 2001, Krugman wrote several columns excoriating the company. (One featured what may be the most absurd howler in the history of op-ed journalism: “I predict that in the years ahead Enron, not Sept. 11, will come to be seen as the greater turning point in U.S. society.”) In most of these columns Krugman worked hard to link Enron to the Bush administration, and in one he actually blamed Enron’s consultants for the company’s collapse — while neglecting to mention that he, too, had been an Enron consultant."

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/225981

Holy crap, you were more right about the similarities between Krugman and *middleview* than I initially thought and agreed.
It's all Booshes fault! That's why I love debating these guys. When they say that I agree with them and point out how Obama failed because he didn't change the most basic Bush policy failure - bigger government, more spending and more regulation. As Clinton showed us "it's the big government, stupid!"
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Wow, there were a lot of homeless people in Santa Monica when Reagan was president. Very compelling.... uh... I guess.... meaningless anecdote?
as was your link to homeless in Los Angeles in a conversation about the Great Depression or the Bush recession.

Did you have a point?
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Hmmm.... it turns out Krugman was an advisor for Enron in 1999. Yeah, that really worked out well (emphasis added)

"In 1999 Paul Krugman was paid $50,000 by Enron as a consultant on its “advisory board,” and that same year he wrote a glowing article about Enron for Fortune magazine. But he would change his tune. After Enron collapsed in 2001, Krugman wrote several columns excoriating the company. (One featured what may be the most absurd howler in the history of op-ed journalism: “I predict that in the years ahead Enron, not Sept. 11, will come to be seen as the greater turning point in U.S. society.”) In most of these columns Krugman worked hard to link Enron to the Bush administration, and in one he actually blamed Enron’s consultants for the company’s collapse — while neglecting to mention that he, too, had been an Enron consultant."

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/225981

Holy crap, you were more right about the similarities between Krugman and *middleview* than I initially thought and agreed.
Krugman advised Enron. Was his consulting in anyway linked to the fraudulent companies Enron was setting up? I'd bet you don't know the answer...making you and Raoul a lot more alike than I had guessed....one fact free post after another. In any case he was one of several advisors on a board meant to advise Enron on economic issues. He wrote an article where Enron was mentioned after he'd left the Enron board. The article implies some kind of link between Krugman and the fraudulent activities that brought them down....but he doesn't provide any evidence.

It seems the National Review is as accurate as you are. Krugman was not paid $50,000.
http://www.pkarchive.org/personal/EnronFAQ.html

As far as Bush being linked to Enron...are you kidding? If you missed the relationship it is because you weren't paying attention. Did you forget about "Kenny Boy"? That was Bush's nickname for Ken Lay....

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=121269&page=1
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
rent control caused much of the homeless problem in Santa Monica that along with many other libber programs
Bullshit. The people living under the bridges and along the cliff in Santa Monica are homeless because they don't have jobs. Back in 1978 they couldn't afford a place in Santa Monica unless it was free. Many have moved there from colder places, because sleeping outdoors won't be fatal.
 

redtide

Mayor
Bullshit. The people living under the bridges and along the cliff in Santa Monica are homeless because they don't have jobs. Back in 1978 they couldn't afford a place in Santa Monica unless it was free. Many have moved there from colder places, because sleeping outdoors won't be fatal.
all due to liberalism and the entitlement mentality and programs
 

justoffal

Senator
Right! In effect the commercial paper repo market locked up. These loans had to be reborrowed (or repaid) every day (or night, actually), and once the question of who were the weakest links in the chain got asked, nobody liked the answer they got (no one knew for sure). But the whole thing would have gotten unwound if the government (Hank Paulson, actually, because Bush was/is clueless on these financial matters) hadn't bailed out Bear Sterns (because they were big on Goldman Sach's book of business for commercial paper) and then refused to do the same for Lehman Brothers (because Paulson hated Dick Fuld). That created the mother of all uncertainty which is what locked the market up good and hard. If they had just let the prices fall until the people with deep pockets (and less leverage) stepped forward and put in bids, the market would have cleared and a couple of investment banks would have went bankrupt (which they did anyway) and the whole thing would have been over in a few months. The bad policies (market interventions) of the Bush administration caused the credit crisis, and the idea that Obama had no other path, such as backing away and letting the market clear, is disingenuous. But, you know, you never let a "crisis" go to waste, and Obama had a lot of socialist policy he wanted to get implemented. So we had to give up a decade of economic growth so he could shove America hard to the left. It is what it is...
This is where the government did make things worse ..... And yes it was probably Bush's decision.

By playing favorites and insulating the offenders from the results of their bad decisions ... the Bush administration in effect cast a dark shadow over all daily business transactions because nobody knew whether or not they were receiving junk or real money for the business needs

It must've sucked to be the owner of a large supermarket chain during those weeks and months ... not knowing whether or not the paychecks were going to bounce or the purchasing checks were going to pass through.

Jo
 
D

Deleted member 21794

Guest
Krugman advised Enron. Was his consulting in anyway linked to the fraudulent companies Enron was setting up? I'd bet you don't know the answer...making you and Raoul a lot more alike than I had guessed....one fact free post after another. In any case he was one of several advisors on a board meant to advise Enron on economic issues. He wrote an article where Enron was mentioned after he'd left the Enron board. The article implies some kind of link between Krugman and the fraudulent activities that brought them down....but he doesn't provide any evidence.

It seems the National Review is as accurate as you are. Krugman was not paid $50,000.
http://www.pkarchive.org/personal/EnronFAQ.html

As far as Bush being linked to Enron...are you kidding? If you missed the relationship it is because you weren't paying attention. Did you forget about "Kenny Boy"? That was Bush's nickname for Ken Lay....

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=121269&page=1
Wow. Krugman denies. Impressive.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Wow. Krugman denies. Impressive.
You didn't address the points I made. Your source did not cite any link between Krugman and the fraudulent corporations set up to hide debt. You also didn't say anything about the link between Bush and Enron or the date of the article he mentioned Enron vs the date he left the board.

Krugman didn't deny anything. He set the record straight.
 

EatTheRich

President
Actually, you are 100% correct! However, it wasn't the "free market" that created the commodity glut, but rather…you got it…permanent Keynesianism:

http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/a-clean-kill-of-the-keynesian-demand-shortfall-error/
The Communist Manifesto on the issue, 35 years before the birth of Keynes:

Modern bourgeois society, with its relations of production, of exchange and of property, a society that has conjured up such gigantic means of production and of exchange, is like the sorcerer who is no longer able to control the powers of the nether world whom he has called up by his spells. For many a decade past the history of industry and commerce is but the history of the revolt of modern productive forces against modern conditions of production, against the property relations that are the conditions for the existence of the bourgeois and of its rule. It is enough to mention the commercial crises that by their periodical return put the existence of the entire bourgeois society on its trial, each time more threateningly. In these crises, a great part not only of the existing products, but also of the previously created productive forces, are periodically destroyed. In these crises, there breaks out an epidemic that, in all earlier epochs, would have seemed an absurdity — the epidemic of over-production. Society suddenly finds itself put back into a state of momentary barbarism; it appears as if a famine, a universal war of devastation, had cut off the supply of every means of subsistence; industry and commerce seem to be destroyed; and why? Because there is too much civilisation, too much means of subsistence, too much industry, too much commerce. The productive forces at the disposal of society no longer tend to further the development of the conditions of bourgeois property; on the contrary, they have become too powerful for these conditions, by which they are fettered, and so soon as they overcome these fetters, they bring disorder into the whole of bourgeois society, endanger the existence of bourgeois property. The conditions of bourgeois society are too narrow to comprise the wealth created by them. And how does the bourgeoisie get over these crises? On the one hand by enforced destruction of a mass of productive forces; on the other, by the conquest of new markets, and by the more thorough exploitation of the old ones. That is to say, by paving the way for more extensive and more destructive crises, and by diminishing the means whereby crises are prevented.

My boldface highlights. Capitalist government's don't pursue Keynesian "solutions" because they don't understand that these will produce future crises, and they don't do so because of the clamor of an ignorant public for something to be done. They do it because if something is not done, the economic system would collapse immediately ... instead of being shored up for the next crisis.

Capitalism lurches from crisis to crisis not because of bad policy but because instability is a necessary condition of its existence.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
That was investment banks, not maw and paw's savings accounts. And there's one other problem with your contention here - it isn't true:

Although our understanding of what instigated the 2008 global financial crisis remains at best incomplete, there are a few widely agreed upon contributing factors. One of them is a 2004 rule change by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission that allowed investment banks to load up on leverage.

This disastrous decision has been cited by a host of prominent economists, including Princeton professor and former Federal Reserve Vice- Chairman Alan Blinder and Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz. It has even been immortalized in Hollywood, figuring into the dark financial narrative that propelled the Academy Award-winning film Inside Job.

As Blinder explained in a Jan. 24, 2009 New York Times op-ed piece, one of what he listed as six fundamental errors that led to the crisis came “when the SEC let securities firms increase their leverage sharply.” He continued: “Before then, leverage of 12 to 1 was typical; afterward, it shot up to more like 33 to 1. What were the SEC and the heads of the firms thinking?”

More recently, Simon Johnson, a former chief economist at the IMF, said last November that the decision “by the Bush administration, by the SEC to allow investment banks to massively increase their leverage … in terms of the big mistakes in financial history, that’s got to be in the top 10.”

It is certainly true that leverage at the investment banks zoomed between 2004 and 2007, before the near collapse. And this narrative of the rule change has plenty of appeal — it serves up villains. Stupid SEC people! Greedy bankers! It also suggests regulators were in the pockets of the big banks, and it offers support for the narrative of financial deregulation that many put at the center of the crisis.

There’s just one problem with this story line: It’s not true. Nor is it hard to prove that. Look at the historical leverage of the big five investment banks — Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley. The Government Accountability Office did just this in a July 2009 report and noted that three of the five firms had leverage ratios of 28 to 1 or greater at fiscal year-end 1998, which not only is a lot higher than 12 to 1 but also was higher than their leverage ratios at the end of 2006. So if leverage was higher before the rule change than it ever was afterward, how could the 2004 rule change have resulted in previously impermissible leverage?


http://blogs.reuters.com/bethany-mclean/2012/03/19/the-meltdown-explanation-that-melts-away/

It's a good read and I suggest anyone interested in the facts read the whole thing...
so you found one individual who seems to agree with you and think you have proven something important. what about the people she disagrees with? she mentions quite a few. are they all dishonest and she the sole teller of truth?
there are a lot of discrepacies in her narrative...and no footnotes to her sources...
 

Arkady

President
FoxNews forced to admit it. LOL

Fox News Research

✔ @FoxNewsResearch

Average Monthly #Job Gains
-by year

•2017: 171,000
•2016: 187,000

•2015: 226,000
•2014: 250,000
•2013: 192,000
•2012: 179,000
•2011: 174,000
•2010: 88,000#JobsReport

8:54 AM - Jan 5, 2018
It's actually even more dramatic than that would suggest, since the population grows over time, such that a given average job count will be smaller, percentage wise, later in time. Here it is in percentage terms:

2017: 1.41%
2016: 1.57%
2015: 1.93%
2014: 2.18%
2013: 1.70%
2012: 1.61%
2011: 1.60%
2010: 0.82%.

As you can see, although job creation in 2017 was almost as good as 2011, in raw numbers (just 1.7% less), in percentage terms, it was an expansion rate almost 12% lower than in 2011.

Also, keep in mind, that gives Trump credit for January 2016, a strong month that was already 2/3 over before he was sworn in. His actual monthly average, through eleven months, was 167,000 jobs, or 1.37% in annualized growth.

That said, I don't hold the weaker growth against Trump. I don't think he's done much to impact the economy one way or the other since taking office, so if we'd had another year of Obama (or Clinton, instead), we'd almost certainly have seen a slow-down in job creation as well. Mostly it's just an expected slow-down associated with being closer to full employment. We'd already picked the low-hanging fruit by 2014, and things have been slowing since then.

The real test will be in 2017 and 2018. Can the long growth-cycle be sustained? Time will tell.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
This is where the government did make things worse ..... And yes it was probably Bush's decision.

By playing favorites and insulating the offenders from the results of their bad decisions ... the Bush administration in effect cast a dark shadow over all daily business transactions because nobody knew whether or not they were receiving junk or real money for the business needs

It must've sucked to be the owner of a large supermarket chain during those weeks and months ... not knowing whether or not the paychecks were going to bounce or the purchasing checks were going to pass through.

Jo
I don't see that any of the circumstances you write about would have been impacted by Tarp. I knew businesses that were operating on short term borrowing to cover expenses.
One construction company couldn't obtain financing to continue a project building 20 homes. They were forced to sell tracts of land they'd bought for future residential building and at a huge loss. They still couldn't raise the money for the project and went under.
It wasn't about knowing if their paychecks would bounce...reputable businesses do not write bad checks.

What would have been different if there had been no Tarp? A lot more bankruptcies and a lot harder to recover. Even now we are faced with fewer banks controlling the majority of the financial industry. Without Tarp it would have been worse.
 
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