Montecresto
Mayor
And now the fat ass TIC is threatening war with Russia and Syria via Twitter as the dumb ass conducts most of his failed foreign policy!
Trump inherits mess- how Obama's failure in Syria continues to haunt us
- Thread starter Dino
- Start date
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Sickofleft
Guest
The civil war started off as peaceful demonstration against Assad in March 2011 and had little or nothing to do with us being in Iraq anymore then the demonstrations in Egypt or Libya did.
But hey you cling to that, anything is better then having to admit Obama sucked.
The fact is that he has the Congressional Authorization to use Force in Iraq and the CAUMF in the war on terror...they are poorly worded and vague enough to get away with practically anything.
Trump is now doing the exact same thing, except that the link between Assad's military and their use of gas against the rebel held areas and the AUMF in either legislation is non-existent.
Arkady
President
The demonstrations turned into a civil war in large part because of the influence of radical elements that had been empowered by Bush's destabilization of the region.
I've criticized Obama's Syria policy repeatedly here. This isn't about having an issue with critiques of Obama. It's about having an issue with the kind of mindless right-wing dummy who can't see how Bush's destablization of the region led to these problems. Those of us who were smart enough to oppose the Iraq War predicted exactly this kind of thing. Now that it's happening, those who supported the war act like connected the dots from known cause to widely-predicted effect is illegitimate.
When Bush disbanded the Iraqi army...he didn't even disarm them. Where did he think 250,000 ex-soldiers were going to get jobs since he'd also de-Baathed the Iraqi government and every member of the military was also a member of the Baath party....
Those guys went to work for the newly formed and funded Al Qaeda in Iraq. The current military leadership of ISIS is former Iraqi army generals.
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Sickofleft
Guest
Ummmmmm Iraq was stable in 2011....was stable right up until Obama decided to pull out for a campaign slogan so try again.
All you ever do is apologize for Democrats and lambast Republicans so please spare me this horseshit:
If you were at least honest it would be different, if you were honest you and your cohorts would have to admit that Obama "ended" the war in Iraq as irresponsibly as it was started.
But that will never happen because you guys have become like kamikaze when it comes to defending the legacy of a failed Presidency.
Montecresto
Mayor
That remains debatable as many in congress disagree. Myself as well. You cannot give an open authorization to the office of the presidency that each recurring president can carry around from country to country committing troops and using force. And Obama knew this, which is why he sent Clinton to the UN three times seeking the legitimacy of a UNSCR authorizing force.
Arkady
President
It was certainly more stable in 2011 than it had been in the Bush years, but 54 Americans were shipped home from Iraq, that year, in body bags. It continued to be in bad shape.
I was very vocally against the invasion. I correctly predicted it would be a hyper-expensive bloodbath that would destabilize the region and trash America's reputation. I also expressed serious skepticism about the supposed WMD threat. I tried to get anyone who would listen to consider the case against the invasion. I argued that, at the very least, we should be waiting to give inspectors more time, since they'd either demolish the case for war and spare us that nightmare, or they'd bolster it, and bring some of our key allies in line behind us. But, among conservatives, bloodlust had taken hold, and they wanted to hurry up and get the killing started before people realized what a stupid idea it was.
Yet, despite all that, for a while after the invasion, I supported the occupation. I took a "you broke it, you bought it" attitude. We'd horribly screwed up Iraq and now we owed it to their people to fix the problems we'd created. I figured that hastily pulling out, and creating a power vacuum, would essentially turn Iraq into the next Afghanistan -- a failed state run by regional warlords and insane theocrats, and a playground for terrorists. So, in 2004 and 2005, I supported doing what it took to try to fix our fuk up.
Around 2006, though, I realized I was wrong: that we weren't going to fix it. Our continued occupation was merely inflaming tensions and giving terrorist recruiters the ability to posture as anti-colonialist freedom fighters. I predicted that if we stayed, the death toll would remain high, and only when it became clear we were leaving would it start to fall. So, I supported getting our asses out ASAP. Unfortunately, it took most of the country a while to realize that was right, so things got worse before they got better, including a death toll of over 900 of our soldiers in 2007 alone.
I wish I'd been right. I wish that sticking around to fix what we'd broken had been the right move. But it turns out it was a terrible idea. And I accept the guilt for my part in supporting that bad policy idea. I also accept Obama's guilt in keeping the occupation going for his first three years as president. We should have cut our losses as soon as possible and left Iraq to fix itself. Live and learn.
So, this isn't about defending Obama. It's about being honest about what happened. That honesty comes hard to anyone who was dumb enough to have supported the invasion. But even if comes hard to some of us who were smart enough to oppose it, but then dumb enough to support continuing the occupation long after it was clear we were doing more harm than good.
The Sage of Main Street
Governor
Your Dogma Ate Your Homework
Tarsus (St. Paul's birthplace) is in Turkey. You were too lazy to check the spelling of Tartus, which is Syria's second largest port city. True Believers don't believe they have to be accurate, as long as they mean well. "Due diligence is such a FASCIST concept!"
Montecresto
Mayor
Ever heard of auto correct, hmm? Funny that the best you’ve got is a criticism of spelling.
If you were honest you'd admit that Bush committed the US to complete withdrawal when he signed the SOFA in December of 2008...Why in hell didn't he leave the negotiation to Obama who was taking over in a month? So once he committed the US to being completely out of Iraq in 2011...and with Maliki refusing to accept a new SOFA...
You can continue to blame Obama for Bush's f*ck up, but it just confirms your partisan view of the world....speaking of defending the legacy of a failed presidency.
You think that is a leftist trait? That is pretty funny since I just had a go 'round with one of the right wingers here saying that Colorado doesn't have Universal Background Checks...because he found some 2010 article about background checks...
resident_evil
Senator
No, Obama had more to do with it when he discouraged the Iranian Green revolution and encouraged the Egyption, Libyan, and Syrian revolts.
Lie about it somewhere else.
This Obama discouraged.
This Obama encouraged.
Arkady
President
What makes you think he discouraged the Green revolution? Didn't he, in fact, say that it was up to Iranians to make decisions about who Iran's leaders will be? Didn't he clearly express outrage about the violence Iran used against the protesters?No, Obama had more to do with it when he discouraged the Iranian Green revolution and encouraged the Egyption, Libyan, and Syrian revolts.
Lie about it somewhere else.
This Obama discouraged.
This Obama encouraged.
I remember the wingnuts getting awfully upset that Obama didn't use those protests as an excuse to bomb Iran and start another war that Israel was lusting after. But pointing out that Obama didn't use our military against a sovereign nation to support protesters is, of course, very different from saying he discouraged the protesters.
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Sickofleft
Guest
Can always find you hiding behind the SOFA MV in more ways then one.
Iraq is a sovereign country we needed an agreement with the Iraqi government in order to stay, that was what the SOFA was for. Obviously nobody was going to have an agreement that stated that USA is allowed to stay forever, it was meant to be renewed, Obama Administration wanted out for the 2012 election and screwed the pooch to get out.
Really..."IT WAS MEANT TO BE RENEWED"? I think you mean "IT WAS MEANT TO BE RENEGOTIATED"....since the treaty itself was about removing all US troops from Iraq..and once they were gone, renewing it would be pretty senseless...in any case, unless you read minds or have been in touch with George W. Bush or Maliki lately...you don't know that to be true. Why did Bush sign that agreement as he was walking out the door, instead of leaving it to Obama, the guy who'd have to live with the SOFA?
And if the other party to the agreement says "Nah, we don't want to renegotiate...we like things as they are?"....then what? Because that is exactly what happened. Malaki refused to give up on the idea that US soldiers accused of crimes would be tried in Iraqi courts and Obama refused to allow that. Malaki didn't even take the new SOFA to parliament for a vote....
So you keep hiding behind the idea that you know what people were thinking....oh yeah, they negotiated a treaty for all US troops to leave by the end of 2011...but they didn't think it would actually happen....BULLSHIT!
You still have managed to avoid acknowledging that Bush disbanded the Iraqi army and that is where the majority of the military resources came from to form ISIS.
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Sickofleft
Guest
YAWN
Lets talk about something that matters, ya think you have a shot at third Stanley Cup?
Looking pretty good....Next game is tomorrow night.
sear
Mayor
#56
"Renewed" in the sense that the previous one had an expiration date.
"Renegotiated", as I've never known a SOFA to not be negotiated.
But iirc, and I've not done any double-check on this; purely from memory:
the terms of the U.S. withdrawal, the failure to extend U.S. military occupation of Iraq in compliance w/ international law (meaning w/ SOFA), that failure occurred during the Bush administration, under terms of the Bush administration.
THEREFORE:
when Obama took office,
EVEN THOUGH OBAMA WAS COMMANDER IN CHIEF !!
the U.S. military withdrawal from its occupation force in Iraq was completed under terms set in international law before Obama was inaugurated, thus under terms of the Bush administration: you know, the ones that lied to get us there in the first place.
UBL was #1 on the FBI 10 most wanted list, because he killed thousands of innocent Americans during Bush's 8 year tenure.
BUT !!!
During those same 8 years, Bush killed more innocent Americans than UBL in those same 8 years.
"Renewed" in the sense that the previous one had an expiration date.
"Renegotiated", as I've never known a SOFA to not be negotiated.
But iirc, and I've not done any double-check on this; purely from memory:
the terms of the U.S. withdrawal, the failure to extend U.S. military occupation of Iraq in compliance w/ international law (meaning w/ SOFA), that failure occurred during the Bush administration, under terms of the Bush administration.
THEREFORE:
when Obama took office,
EVEN THOUGH OBAMA WAS COMMANDER IN CHIEF !!
the U.S. military withdrawal from its occupation force in Iraq was completed under terms set in international law before Obama was inaugurated, thus under terms of the Bush administration: you know, the ones that lied to get us there in the first place.
Bush lied. And thousands of innocent U.S. citizens died as a result!
UBL was #1 on the FBI 10 most wanted list, because he killed thousands of innocent Americans during Bush's 8 year tenure.
BUT !!!
During those same 8 years, Bush killed more innocent Americans than UBL in those same 8 years.
Montecresto
Mayor
Ha, that’s not how Bush was treating it when he was kicking the IAEA out who protested solemnly that Iraq was cooperating and had no WMD.
