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Atheists are Irrational!

fairsheet

Senator
The non-believers I take most issue with, are the ones who shout loudest about how they ARE believers!

Take the Revrunt Pat Robertson. Everyone knows him to be a Christian to some extent or another. As I see it though...anyone who says and does the things he does, CAN'T believe in a hereafter!
 
If any of you really want to dig deep into the question of religion, God, Jesus and philosophy through the ages, I strongly suggest you read a book that I am just finishing. It is called "Why I became an Athiest" by John Loftus. John is a former believer and is now one of the most important voices in this debate. He regularly takes on his former mentor, William Lane Craig. Craig is the worlds most famous Christian debater. He takes on all comers. Loftus and Craig is a sight to behold. All the questions and issues raised in these threads is dealt with in the book I mentioned. If you really want to understand faith, the Bible, the history of the era and people and the various arguments pro and con, pick it up. Here is a link to the review on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Became-Atheist-Preacher-Christianity/dp/1616145773/ref=dp_ob_title_bk

If you read this book and remain faithful then nothing any of us can provide here can sway you.
 

JV-12

Mayor
If any of you really want to dig deep into the question of religion, God, Jesus and philosophy through the ages, I strongly suggest you read a book that I am just finishing. It is called "Why I became an Athiest" by John Loftus. John is a former believer and is now one of the most important voices in this debate. He regularly takes on his former mentor, William Lane Craig. Craig is the worlds most famous Christian debater. He takes on all comers. Loftus and Craig is a sight to behold. All the questions and issues raised in these threads is dealt with in the book I mentioned. If you really want to understand faith, the Bible, the history of the era and people and the various arguments pro and con, pick it up. Here is a link to the review on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Became-Atheist-Preacher-Christianity/dp/1616145773/ref=dp_ob_title_bk

If you read this book and remain faithful then nothing any of us can provide here can sway you.
You noted that William Craig is “the world’s most famous debater” for Christianity and takes on all comers. But all I see on google is articles why William Craig refuses to debate John Loftus. Well if that is the case, then I scoff at your claim that he is such a world famous defendant for the faith. IOW, don’t rely on that or those two for thinking you have won the war.

I skimmed John Loftus’s “encyclical” Why I am not a Christian. http://infidels.org/library/modern/john_loftus/christianity.html

Everything I could pick up from skimming the 10th chapter are questions he poses that either Christianity cannot answer in a satisfying way to a skeptic, or questions about the human condition that make no logical sense to the skeptic how an “all good” God could act in such a way and still be good.

What I see no evidence of is Loftus providing explanations for the claims of empirical evidence that have been revealed, such as signs and wonders. Again, he can rail against and mock the insanity of those mysteries or answers that have not been revealed or sound the least bit fair and kind, but he ignores that which has. Big deal. He’s no different than the others, unless you can provide me text where he does take on miracles?
 
You noted that William Craig is “the world’s most famous debater” for Christianity and takes on all comers. But all I see on google is articles why William Craig refuses to debate John Loftus. Well if that is the case, then I scoff at your claim that he is such a world famous defendant for the faith. IOW, don’t rely on that or those two for thinking you have won the war.

I skimmed John Loftus’s “encyclical” Why I am not a Christian. http://infidels.org/library/modern/john_loftus/christianity.html

Everything I could pick up from skimming the 10th chapter are questions he poses that either Christianity cannot answer in a satisfying way to a skeptic, or questions about the human condition that make no logical sense to the skeptic how an “all good” God could act in such a way and still be good.

What I see no evidence of is Loftus providing explanations for the claims of empirical evidence that have been revealed, such as signs and wonders. Again, he can rail against and mock the insanity of those mysteries or answers that have not been revealed or sound the least bit fair and kind, but he ignores that which has. Big deal. He’s no different than the others, unless you can provide me text where he does take on miracles?

You might want to watch some of the many youtube clips where Craig is indeed debating some of the most famous atheists, scholars and religious leaders in the world. Loftus was Craigs student at one time and likes to taunt him into debating him which is why you saw so many links about them. They debate in other ways via blogs and counter statements. As for the review of the book, if you really want to know the intellectual basis for atheism as it confronts faith, read the book. I have many books by atheists explaining their views in rebuttal to faith based reasoning. This one is by far the most thorough, well researched and fair to both sides of the debate. As for miracles, it is fair to say that the single most important miracle is the resurrection story. It is covered in depth in the book. It is also covered in depth by Carrier and Erhman in similar books. Both of the latter car read Aramaic and Greek and are well known biblical scholars.

I challenged the faithful to read the book if you wanted to understand the basis for atheism. I did not really expect many of you to make the effort.
 

JV-12

Mayor
As for miracles, it is fair to say that the single most important miracle is the resurrection story. It is covered in depth in the book.
No, it is not “fair to say” in my opinion. Because that took place 2,000 years ago and every single thing that took place before the age of cameras is scoffed at by the doubters. And every single thing that takes place now that is only witnessed by a few is scoffed at by the doubters.

So the atheist demands empirical evidence for which he or she cannot deny. I am dealing with hard core atheists on these boards, not someone who seeks spiritual help for all their problems. There is no way you folks are going to buy into the resurrection or Jesus walking on the water --- it invariably comes back to the stories were made up by some zealots, or something to that effect.

So when John Loftus has some explanation for the wooden statue of Mary that was video taped exuding human blood from her eyes and witnessed on 101 occasion weeping blood or oil or tears, I will take part. When he can explain a Lisbon communist newspaper reluctantly telling of the miracle of the sun their cynical journalists reported on, even though they were there to mock it, I will partake. And so many others.

I don’t need a Bible to tell me Jesus Christ is God. I have many other manifestations and accounts that tell me the same thing.
 

gigi

Mayor
Yes. They're generally easy enough to see and sample. No great mystery, as a rule...



I said that people will usually give others fairly understandable indications of what they believe and why. I also said people often believe what they believe for a variety of reasons and some are motivated more by one factor than another. Why do those statements seem contradictory to you? They don't strike me as being contradictory at all.

Cheers.
Well maybe I misunderstood you. You don't believe that most people have faith and association to particular religions because they were raised on it?
 

gigi

Mayor
You might want to watch some of the many youtube clips where Craig is indeed debating some of the most famous atheists, scholars and religious leaders in the world. Loftus was Craigs student at one time and likes to taunt him into debating him which is why you saw so many links about them. They debate in other ways via blogs and counter statements. As for the review of the book, if you really want to know the intellectual basis for atheism as it confronts faith, read the book. I have many books by atheists explaining their views in rebuttal to faith based reasoning. This one is by far the most thorough, well researched and fair to both sides of the debate. As for miracles, it is fair to say that the single most important miracle is the resurrection story. It is covered in depth in the book. It is also covered in depth by Carrier and Erhman in similar books. Both of the latter car read Aramaic and Greek and are well known biblical scholars.

I challenged the faithful to read the book if you wanted to understand the basis for atheism. I did not really expect many of you to make the effort.
Woolley, what books have you read by Biblical scholars, expert in the Greek and Aramaic texts, that are believers? Do you read the other side or not? Do you "make the effort" as well?

I'll read Loftus book if it's at the library. But if you have not read equally educated and versed writers from the other side, I don't know how you can feel that Loftus is the definitive voice for why atheism is true.
 
No, it is not “fair to say” in my opinion. Because that took place 2,000 years ago and every single thing that took place before the age of cameras is scoffed at by the doubters. And every single thing that takes place now that is only witnessed by a few is scoffed at by the doubters.

So the atheist demands empirical evidence for which he or she cannot deny. I am dealing with hard core atheists on these boards, not someone who seeks spiritual help for all their problems. There is no way you folks are going to buy into the resurrection or Jesus walking on the water --- it invariably comes back to the stories were made up by some zealots, or something to that effect.

So when John Loftus has some explanation for the wooden statue of Mary that was video taped exuding human blood from her eyes and witnessed on 101 occasion weeping blood or oil or tears, I will take part. When he can explain a Lisbon communist newspaper reluctantly telling of the miracle of the sun their cynical journalists reported on, even though they were there to mock it, I will partake. And so many others.

I don’t need a Bible to tell me Jesus Christ is God. I have many other manifestations and accounts that tell me the same thing.
Perfect reasoning of a faithful acolyte. I do suggest you look up Craig though. He will give you better arguments in support of your position than witness accounts of Jesus appearing on a piece of toast or blood coming from statues or Fatima seeing Mary. Call me when a person whose arm was amputated prays and it miraculously grows back. Then we can talk. All the rest of your miracle stories can be explained through natural phenomena.
 

JV-12

Mayor
Perfect reasoning of a faithful acolyte. I do suggest you look up Craig though. He will give you better arguments in support of your position than witness accounts of Jesus appearing on a piece of toast or blood coming from statues or Fatima seeing Mary. Call me when a person whose arm was amputated prays and it miraculously grows back. Then we can talk. All the rest of your miracle stories can be explained through natural phenomena.
Right, wooley, nothing more credible here than a piece of toast. Is that what your Loftus book told you? I believe it.

In addition: I have no interest in a protestant (craig) representing my views on Christianity or evidence for God.
 

GordonGecko

President
No, it is not “fair to say” in my opinion. Because that took place 2,000 years ago and every single thing that took place before the age of cameras is scoffed at by the doubters.
Movie cameras were quite prevalent in 1917.

Why no movies of Fatima?


BTW, images of Jesus DO appear on things like slices of bread....I can prove that-

 

nfp guy

Council Member
No, it is not “fair to say” in my opinion. Because that took place 2,000 years ago and every single thing that took place before the age of cameras is scoffed at by the doubters. And every single thing that takes place now that is only witnessed by a few is scoffed at by the doubters.

So the atheist demands empirical evidence for which he or she cannot deny. I am dealing with hard core atheists on these boards, not someone who seeks spiritual help for all their problems. There is no way you folks are going to buy into the resurrection or Jesus walking on the water --- it invariably comes back to the stories were made up by some zealots, or something to that effect.

So when John Loftus has some explanation for the wooden statue of Mary that was video taped exuding human blood from her eyes and witnessed on 101 occasion weeping blood or oil or tears, I will take part. When he can explain a Lisbon communist newspaper reluctantly telling of the miracle of the sun their cynical journalists reported on, even though they were there to mock it, I will partake. And so many others.

I don’t need a Bible to tell me Jesus Christ is God. I have many other manifestations and accounts that tell me the same thing.
JV, I am not sure that miracle accounts will persuade anyone who is not involved in them personally. I think the Chuch itself generally only goes so far as to say certain very few occurrences are "worthy of belief", but even if a hypothetical Catholic did not think Fatima was legit, one would still be fully Catholic. I am not 100% sure on the requirements when a canonization cause is being investigated, in the sense that while the Church may accept them as miracles, I am not sure they are binding on the faithful; only the conclusion that the saint is in heaven is, I think, as the Church understands it, binding, although I might be wrong about that.

Moreover, all the miracles talk reminds me of the rich man and Lazarus, no? The rich man's brothers had Moses and the prophets, but still did not believe.

To everyone, have you ever read Caleb Carr's "Killing Time"? Basically as the technology for forgery improves, it is hard to believe anything from the past, or moreso, it is easier to plant more convincing fakes.
 

JV-12

Mayor
JV, I am not sure that miracle accounts will persuade anyone who is not involved in them personally. I think the Chuch itself generally only goes so far as to say certain very few occurrences are "worthy of belief", but even if a hypothetical Catholic did not think Fatima was legit, one would still be fully Catholic. I am not 100% sure on the requirements when a canonization cause is being investigated, in the sense that while the Church may accept them as miracles, I am not sure they are binding on the faithful; only the conclusion that the saint is in heaven is, I think, as the Church understands it, binding, although I might be wrong about that.

Moreover, all the miracles talk reminds me of the rich man and Lazarus, no? The rich man's brothers had Moses and the prophets, but still did not believe.

To everyone, have you ever read Caleb Carr's "Killing Time"? Basically as the technology for forgery improves, it is hard to believe anything from the past, or moreso, it is easier to plant more convincing fakes.
I think I agree with you on this. As Mary said to Pachi --- “most only come to know God on bended knees.”

But the reason I responded as I did was because I am addressing the atheist author who tries to debunk truth for the resurrection and other ancient Biblical claims. Heck, anyone can do that on this board because we have no empirical evidence of it and that is what they always demand. So I said I am not interested in what they claim we cannot prove or what they claim makes no sense how an omnipotent, all loving God would act --- because those are unwinnable debates.

So I took my own tack and said “let’s see your author try to offer an explanation for Fatima. If he cannot, then he has a problem because every fact points to the supernatural.”

So to shorten this whole post --- for the sake of my argument, I really do not care that Rome will never make an infallible decision on Fatima or the Shroud or Akita or Lourdes. That would hardly make it any more thought provoking for the atheist anyway. I am challenging the atheist on their demands --- and they invariably demand empirical evidence Well that is what I want them to look at and see what explanations they might have for not believing the facts or their own eyes. Hitherto, it makes them look week or silly as far as I am concerned.

As far as fakes go, I am not at all worried about it. It is a fool who looks at one fake and uses that as a reason to say others are fake. Who must I keep reminding what is going on here? I am not needing miracles for me to believe in God or feel grateful. It is the skeptic who demands it, so I oblige. Fatima is beyond doubt and inside they know it. Same for the 200,000 Arabs who say Mary on the cathedral in Zeitoun, Egypt. They know it, just do not want to admit it.
 

fairsheet

Senator
The first thing The Church needs to do is make a decision about those FIVE Jesus foreskins in jars, spread about the world's various holy places.

C'mon.....the MOST Jesus foreskins there can be, is one.
 

Havelock

Mayor
Well maybe I misunderstood you. You don't believe that most people have faith and association to particular religions because they were raised on it?
Well, I would argue that most people follow one religion over another, broadly speaking, because the religion they follow happens to be an influential and widely-accepted faith in the culture in which they were raised. That seems pretty straightforward and obvious, no?

Here in the West most folks identify as Christians, whereas in India most folks identify as Hindu, and that distinction is to a large degree self perpetuating within each culture. No mystery there, although various factors may influence this person or that to gravitate toward a particular flavor of Christianity or Hinduism, as the case may be. And of course cultures evolve, sometimes to incorporate other religious faiths, sometimes to move either toward or away from specific dogmas, or toward or away from secular pluralism, and so on.

I'd also argue that, generally speaking, a person who is inclined to be devout will be devout regardless of the religion he or she professes. And the same basic psychological motivations that drive intensity of faith, let's call it, will apply across time and culture, and hence across religious traditions. Or in some cases even across religious versus non-religious articles of faith, so to speak...

Is that more clear?

Cheers.
 

gigi

Mayor
Perfect reasoning of a faithful acolyte. I do suggest you look up Craig though. He will give you better arguments in support of your position than witness accounts of Jesus appearing on a piece of toast or blood coming from statues or Fatima seeing Mary. Call me when a person whose arm was amputated prays and it miraculously grows back. Then we can talk. All the rest of your miracle stories can be explained through natural phenomena.
Your "natural phenomena" entails stories of conspiracies that reach the world around and involve thousands of people intent on duping you. It also involves diagnosing the mental and physical health of people that A)you aren't qualified to diagnose and B)you've never met and therefore would not be able to diagnose even if you were qualified. In short, your natural phenomena involves excuses and variables that you insert as needed.
 

gigi

Mayor
Well, I would argue that most people follow one religion over another, broadly speaking, because the religion they follow happens to be an influential and widely-accepted faith in the culture in which they were raised. That seems pretty straightforward and obvious, no?

Here in the West most folks identify as Christians, whereas in India most folks identify as Hindu, and that distinction is to a large degree self perpetuating within each culture. No mystery there, although various factors may influence this person or that to gravitate toward a particular flavor of Christianity or Hinduism, as the case may be. And of course cultures evolve, sometimes to incorporate other religious faiths, sometimes to move either toward or away from specific dogmas, or toward or away from secular pluralism, and so on.

I'd also argue that, generally speaking, a person who is inclined to be devout will be devout regardless of the religion he or she professes. And the same basic psychological motivations that drive intensity of faith, let's call it, will apply across time and culture, and hence across religious traditions. Or in some cases even across religious versus non-religious articles of faith, so to speak...

Is that more clear?

Cheers.
I don't know if it's more clear. You seem to be saying that most people gravitate toward a faith that is common in the culture. That may be true in childhood. But we can't assume that most people are of a particular faith because that's what they know, that's what is prevalent in their culture, excluding, of course, places where those who leave a faith are killed. People journey, Havelock. And we got off on this limb of the discussion because some feel that religious people are simply brainwashed.

Faith evolves. In childhood, we tend to believe what we're taught about God because we trust the people that are teaching it to us. But as we grow up, we go looking for the truth ourselves. We lose that blind trust in the adults raising us. It's a natural thing. We do it not just with religion but with everything.

I don't think we can take a statistic and claim that the statistic itself is the thing that proves the theory in this case. As in "most people in the U.S. identify as Christian, so therefore the fact that Christianity is the widely known faith in the U.S. indicates that people adhere to particular faiths for cultural reasons. Maybe it's the other way around. Maybe Christianity is the widely known faith in the U.S. because the majority of people in our culture truly have come to believe.
 

gigi

Mayor
Movie cameras were quite prevalent in 1917.

Why no movies of Fatima?


BTW, images of Jesus DO appear on things like slices of bread....I can prove that-

As if tape would sway you.
The people who came to report on Fatima came to mock it. The government officials came to put to rest "lies" that three children were engaging in and spreading. The result was quite different than what they expected. The newspapers reported on it. You don't offer video for everything you support with written reports. Are you a liar, too?

Surely you don't think the poor people who lived in that village had movie cameras, do you?
But what difference does it make anyway? Movie cameras were in existence and put to use quite often in the decades when Padre Pio was bleeding from his hands, feet, and side. Doctors of many faiths and of no faiths were also present often to examine him. You dismiss the filmed documentation and you dismiss doctors' reports.

So your position that Fatima couldn't have happened because there's no video documentation is pretty weak. You would only dismiss it as a fraud.
 
Your "natural phenomena" entails stories of conspiracies that reach the world around and involve thousands of people intent on duping you. It also involves diagnosing the mental and physical health of people that A)you aren't qualified to diagnose and B)you've never met and therefore would not be able to diagnose even if you were qualified. In short, your natural phenomena involves excuses and variables that you insert as needed.
Gibberish.
 
As if tape would sway you.
The people who came to report on Fatima came to mock it. The government officials came to put to rest "lies" that three children were engaging in and spreading. The result was quite different than what they expected. The newspapers reported on it. You don't offer video for everything you support with written reports. Are you a liar, too?

Surely you don't think the poor people who lived in that village had movie cameras, do you?
But what difference does it make anyway? Movie cameras were in existence and put to use quite often in the decades when Padre Pio was bleeding from his hands, feet, and side. Doctors of many faiths and of no faiths were also present often to examine him. You dismiss the filmed documentation and you dismiss doctors' reports.

So your position that Fatima couldn't have happened because there's no video documentation is pretty weak. You would only dismiss it as a fraud.
No, I dispute it because it is outside the laws of nature, runs against every known scientific fact and is no different than any mass hallucination including seeing UFOs, Loch Ness, ghosts, vampires, yeti, bigfoot, sasquatch, cupacabras and Elvis sitings in Canberra.
 
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