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This guy's attitude is the problem...

freyasman

Senator
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/19/sunil-dutta-police-washington-post_n_5692266.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
This attitude towards others, this mindset, is a HUGE part of the problem. This type of rationalizing the bad behavior of those in positions of authority, is why so many folk's are starting to hate LEOs. That whole "Well, the officer might have gone too far, but it wouldn't have happened if the citizen had just sat down and shut up (even though he was not legally obliged to)...." The cop in this story is an authoritarian ass hole, plain and simple. Take note folks...
 

freyasman

Senator
Yup, he's an [Unwelcome language removed] alright. Part of the problem, not part of the solution.
These guys need to start ruthlessly policing their own ranks, and getting rid of these types. They demand the public's respect; well, respect is reciprocal. You don't have any for the public, don't bitch when the public doesn't have any for ya'll.
 
I know a lot of cops, and sadly, not many of them realize how big of a problem this is. A lot of cops have the perception that anything and everything is okay to guarantee they go home safe at the end of their shift. That's not working anymore, and there are too many LEOs who use that excuse to justify their abuse of authority. I hope they do start policing their own ranks, but I don't think it's likely...
 

Fast Eddy

Mayor
Brown was a militant thug loser and the cop fit the profile of most cops today. Most cops are in your face threatening violence unless you IMMEDIATELY comply.
Two Problems ==> Black Crime & Cop Militarization
 

connieb

Senator
These guys need to start ruthlessly policing their own ranks, and getting rid of these types. They demand the public's respect; well, respect is reciprocal. You don't have any for the public, don't bitch when the public doesn't have any for ya'll.
You are right of course. Although - Dutta is right in his advice to at least try to get through the incident without inciting further violence. You will be the loser- ultimately if you don't just shut up and take the abuse in the moment. But, that is the case when dealing with anyone unstable. You try to end the confrontation as quickly as possible.
The problem of course as you pointed out that this is systemic. I dated a cop for two years in when I was in my late teens/early 20's. He was also much older than me. I had the good sense to recognize, even as young as I was, that part of the attraction to me, was that I was young, and he had hoped I would submit to his "authority". Well, um... he obviously didn't know me very well... but that is neither here nor there. The point was though at the time that was what he was about. domination...authority. He always discussed how rude or nasty he would be at traffic stops, how he was owed respect etc. He would refer to the people he pulled over or otherwise encountered in very derogatory terms, etc. I think he went into the profession because he liked feeling like he was the man, then after years in it ALSO got very cynical and burnt out on dealing with what was by and large the dregs of society. Day in and day out - you see loser after loser. Drug addicts, criminals, etc. Pretty soon, I think that colors your perception of everyone.

I think part of combating this - other than better weeding out the trash, is maybe changing how policing is done. Maybe rotate people around better or something so that they are not always exposed to only the lowest of the low day in and day out.

connie
 

freyasman

Senator
You are right of course. Although - Dutta is right in his advice to at least try to get through the incident without inciting further violence. You will be the loser- ultimately if you don't just shut up and take the abuse in the moment. But, that is the case when dealing with anyone unstable. You try to end the confrontation as quickly as possible.
The problem of course as you pointed out that this is systemic. I dated a cop for two years in when I was in my late teens/early 20's. He was also much older than me. I had the good sense to recognize, even as young as I was, that part of the attraction to me, was that I was young, and he had hoped I would submit to his "authority". Well, um... he obviously didn't know me very well... but that is neither here nor there. The point was though at the time that was what he was about. domination...authority. He always discussed how rude or nasty he would be at traffic stops, how he was owed respect etc. He would refer to the people he pulled over or otherwise encountered in very derogatory terms, etc. I think he went into the profession because he liked feeling like he was the man, then after years in it ALSO got very cynical and burnt out on dealing with what was by and large the dregs of society. Day in and day out - you see loser after loser. Drug addicts, criminals, etc. Pretty soon, I think that colors your perception of everyone.

I think part of combating this - other than better weeding out the trash, is maybe changing how policing is done. Maybe rotate people around better or something so that they are not always exposed to only the lowest of the low day in and day out.

connie
I saw the same type of abusive attitudes in the Army amongst far too many NCOs. Check this out; http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2008/04/police-are-public-and-public-are-police.html
This is the proper attitude, IMO.

(BTW, we ever start dating, I'm cool with you doing the driving.... ;))
 

connieb

Senator
I saw the same type of abusive attitudes in the Army amongst far too many NCOs. Check this out; http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2008/04/police-are-public-and-public-are-police.html
This is the proper attitude, IMO.

(BTW, we ever start dating, I'm cool with you doing the driving.... ;))
Lol. Awe.... I am gonna blush. :)

That blog makes some going points. I agree that we have slipped from the Peelian principles. HOWEVER, while certainly the cops bear the responsibility for their poor behavior, to some degree we get the police department we deserve. In that I do think that we unfairly put a lot of burden on the police to show results. The results then end up being arrests and ultimately convictions. Which I think ultimately leads to using bad tactics to get those arrests and convictions.

In any system, when you create results based incentives, rather than performance based incentives, you create a system ripe for abuse. And, that is true from everything from cooking the books, to secret wait lists in the VA, to police and prosecutorial misconduct. When someone is rewarded or punished ( via loosing jobs and funding) based on results, the incentive is of course to get the results at any cost - and oftentimes that leads to bad acts. It leads to pressure which creates the rationalization of those bad acts.

In the case of the police, its two fold. One, the departments are very results based where officers who do the most arresting, the most narcotics busts, what have you - get rewarded and recognized. BUT - also, they are increasingly facing a more lawless and less controlled populace. The amount of people on this forum who have admitted to breaking laws, to not caring about following a law, etc - is honestly stunning. What the hell happened to following the rules as one of the responsibilities of being a good citizen? So, not only are police departments faced with getting results, they are also increasingly faced with even the average John Q. Public, who couldn't care less about the law, and thinks that everything from speeding to parking in a handicapped spot, to recreational drug use, is their right.

Now, the libertarian in me feels to some degree that much of this comes from basic over-legislation. That IF we had stuck to making laws on the "big stuff" people would be more inclined to follow them and that by having a damn rule about every cotton picking thing, not only makes people more rebellious but it desensitizes them to breaking the law. Once you get a taste for and get over your fear or shame and are able to rationalize breaking one law, its easier to break another and another. Plus, the more laws there are, the more criminals and lawbreakers there will be, which would necessitate more police work, which would mean that the police have that much more pressure to show a result. Its a viscious circle.

While the cops need to be better the people need to better also. And, to that end, perhaps we should consider what exactly it is we need the police to do - and why we may want them and use them more sparingly as well.

connie
 

freyasman

Senator
Lol. Awe.... I am gonna blush. :)

That blog makes some going points. I agree that we have slipped from the Peelian principles. HOWEVER, while certainly the cops bear the responsibility for their poor behavior, to some degree we get the police department we deserve. In that I do think that we unfairly put a lot of burden on the police to show results. The results then end up being arrests and ultimately convictions. Which I think ultimately leads to using bad tactics to get those arrests and convictions.

In any system, when you create results based incentives, rather than performance based incentives, you create a system ripe for abuse. And, that is true from everything from cooking the books, to secret wait lists in the VA, to police and prosecutorial misconduct. When someone is rewarded or punished ( via loosing jobs and funding) based on results, the incentive is of course to get the results at any cost - and oftentimes that leads to bad acts. It leads to pressure which creates the rationalization of those bad acts.

In the case of the police, its two fold. One, the departments are very results based where officers who do the most arresting, the most narcotics busts, what have you - get rewarded and recognized. BUT - also, they are increasingly facing a more lawless and less controlled populace. The amount of people on this forum who have admitted to breaking laws, to not caring about following a law, etc - is honestly stunning. What the hell happened to following the rules as one of the responsibilities of being a good citizen? So, not only are police departments faced with getting results, they are also increasingly faced with even the average John Q. Public, who couldn't care less about the law, and thinks that everything from speeding to parking in a handicapped spot, to recreational drug use, is their right.

Now, the libertarian in me feels to some degree that much of this comes from basic over-legislation. That IF we had stuck to making laws on the "big stuff" people would be more inclined to follow them and that by having a damn rule about every cotton picking thing, not only makes people more rebellious but it desensitizes them to breaking the law. Once you get a taste for and get over your fear or shame and are able to rationalize breaking one law, its easier to break another and another. Plus, the more laws there are, the more criminals and lawbreakers there will be, which would necessitate more police work, which would mean that the police have that much more pressure to show a result. Its a viscious circle.

While the cops need to be better the people need to better also. And, to that end, perhaps we should consider what exactly it is we need the police to do - and why we may want them and use them more sparingly as well.

connie
Agreed.
"To the extent that you rely on others for anything; food, shelter, security, etc., you are not free."
Rory Miller
 
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