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if there's global warming, why is it so cold?

Rather than to spend time on all of... that.... I'll point out a few things. Yes, landscapes. Such as Pieter Breughel the Elder, 1565, and his The Hunters in the Snow. You can find countless landscapes from this period.

Wind turbines do not kill as many 'beautiful creatures' as some try to claim. Sky scrapers kill far more, as do cars, or any building with windows in it.

The Little Ice Age is not proof that Global Warming, or Climate change, is a fallacy, and that has nothing to do with whether people warmed with wood, coal, or peat. The 'Little Ice Age' was a result of several things, one being volcanic action. In fact, there was also a period in the 6th century as well, which was caused by volcanic action. Amazing nobody tried to claim that as a Little Ice Age. If you choose, you can find out the effects that just the number of Icelandic eruptions had on Europe. Thru out the Middle Ages Volcanic activity caused famine, 'plagues', and climatic disruptions in Europe.

What people refer to as Climate Change is totally different. And I will just leave it go at that.
But but but, does it matter? Is all that I am saying - it seems always, to me, too be a waste of time arguing it when we should be arguing about and fighting for the health of the Planet in far more local and more practical terms - and to plan for and thus build for and grow crops for a changing climate, which is obvious if one is a gardener, - and if, money were taken out of the equation and honesty walked in the door -

The worse thing about wind farms is the concrete they sit on -it is erosive as well as it not being very effective, all it does, as far as I can see, is keep our energy in the hands of the biggies to sell back to us - and the £ price of them is just money thrown out of the window -

ps :) I mentioned wood being used rather than coal because you were trying to blame the back ground of Bruegels paintings on smog ;-)

And he was Flemish - it is always cold there!
 
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Wahbooz

Governor
But but but, does it matter? Is all that I am saying - it seems always, to me, too be a waste of time arguing it when we should be arguing about and fighting for the health of the Planet in far more local and more practical terms - and to plan for and thus build for and grow crops for a changing climate, which is obvious if one is a gardener, - and if, money were taken out of the equation and honesty walked in the door -

The worse thing about wind farms is the concrete they sit on -it is erosive as well as it not being very effective, all it does, as far as I can see, is keep our energy in the hands of the biggies to sell back to us - and the £ price of them is just money thrown out of the window -

ps :) I mentioned wood being used rather than coal because you were trying to blame the back ground of Bruegels paintings on smog ;-)

And he was Flemish - it is always cold there!
Concrete? Are you kidding me??? What kind of wind farm is built on concrete? Here are our wind farms.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=michigan+wind+farms&qpvt=michigan+wind+farms&FORM=IGRE#a

Our farms are reducing the cost of electrical service, and you can even utilize your own turbine if you are so inclined to invest a little cash in a cleaner future.

And that is not smog in Breughels paintings, that happens to be volcanic dust. You're not pulling the wool over my eyes, I'm not just fallen off the turnip truck.
 
Concrete? Are you kidding me??? What kind of wind farm is built on concrete? Here are our wind farms.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=michigan wind farms&qpvt=michigan wind farms&FORM=IGRE#a

Our farms are reducing the cost of electrical service, and you can even utilize your own turbine if you are so inclined to invest a little cash in a cleaner future.

And that is not smog in Breughels paintings, that happens to be volcanic dust. You're not pulling the wool over my eyes, I'm not just fallen off the turnip truck.
What do the Turbines stand on?

How deep do they go?

I have no problems with personal small 'windmills'

Our electricity is mainly owned by The French and it is always going up up up, there is a serious 'energy poverty' problem here, especially in the winter - old people die from cold still as always every year because they can't afford to heat their homes and as usual little ones suffer too - Makes no difference where said energy comes from, in fact because it is so subsidized, from the addition of 'green' put onto our bills wind farms cost us.

Volcanic dust? - You are not taking this conversation at all seriously, are you;-)
 

Wahbooz

Governor
What do the Turbines stand on?

How deep do they go?

I have no problems with personal small 'windmills'

Our electricity is mainly owned by The French and it is always going up up up, there is a serious 'energy poverty' problem here, especially in the winter - old people die from cold still as always every year because they can't afford to heat their homes and as usual little ones suffer too - Makes no difference where said energy comes from, in fact because it is so subsidized, from the addition of 'green' put onto our bills wind farms cost us.

Volcanic dust? - You are not taking this conversation at all seriously, are you;-)
Queenie, you saw the pictures. There are no large surfaces of flatwork holding the turbines up. And what is the problem with how deep they go? That's ok, don't worry about it.

And yes, I am serious. Volcanic dust. What do you think killed so many Europeans? It was the eruption of Laki, which killed countless thousands with sulfur dioxide, and shrouded the continent in a haze. In fact millions died globally just from Laki. That's fine, you don't have to believe me. And you don't have to believe science, but facts are facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laki
 
Queenie, you saw the pictures. There are no large surfaces of flatwork holding the turbines up. And what is the problem with how deep they go? That's ok, don't worry about it.

And yes, I am serious. Volcanic dust. What do you think killed so many Europeans? It was the eruption of Laki, which killed countless thousands with sulfur dioxide, and shrouded the continent in a haze. In fact millions died globally just from Laki. That's fine, you don't have to believe me. And you don't have to believe science, but facts are facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laki
Not here sweety, they are on concrete which goes deep into the ground - they would fall down otherwise - they are also often put in places were the wind don't blow much - though because I am against wind farms I am not at all against finding, if some buggers would invest in, far better forms of energy. We are clever buggers but those who own us are not going to let go of their power so they do not invest in anything which will take control of our energies out of their hands -

I was talking about the 16th century - you are talking about the 18th -
 

Wahbooz

Governor
Not here sweety, they are on concrete which goes deep into the ground - they would fall down otherwise - they are also often put in places were the wind don't blow much - though because I am against wind farms I am not at all against finding, if some buggers would invest in, far better forms of energy. We are clever buggers but those who own us are not going to let go of their power so they do not invest in anything which will take control of our energies out of their hands -

I was talking about the 16th century - you are talking about the 18th -
Then you have poor planning in the placement of turbines, but the technology os vastly improved and even light winds can generate an amazing amount if energy. I know you're against wind energy, and that is unfortunate. You're probably also opposed to solar as well, which would be unfortunate because solar along can supply enough energy for every home on the globe with just one day of sunshine.

Sigh.... you think Laki only erupted in the 18th century, or that Laki is the only volcano that erupted in the past 50 million years? I was giving you an example, and that apparently flew right over your head and went through the turbine.
 
Then you have poor planning in the placement of turbines, but the technology os vastly improved and even light winds can generate an amazing amount if energy. I know you're against wind energy, and that is unfortunate. You're probably also opposed to solar as well, which would be unfortunate because solar along can supply enough energy for every home on the globe with just one day of sunshine.

Sigh.... you think Laki only erupted in the 18th century, or that Laki is the only volcano that erupted in the past 50 million years? I was giving you an example, and that apparently flew right over your head and went through the turbine.
Apposed to solar! Me? No absolutely not - I am forever saying it is the best way forward as are the unlimited possibilities of harnessing warmth from Mother Earth, I am also not totally opposed to harnessing energy from the tides, if done with love and care of the wild life, we are not being inventive with our knowledge - because the only ones who have the money to invest in our truly going forwards, being aspirational, inventive and so on, are those who think only of their own pockets -

You misunderstand me Wahbooz - I do not trust the Greens any longer for all sorts of reasons especially to do with their obsession about Wind Power over others, if only for the reason that it allows the Biggies to hold onto their control of us all, thus one of many reasons, I do not trust their politics any longer. I also on a purely aesthetic level do not want to see some of the most beautiful countryside in Britain, almost the whole of Wales, covered in a Wind Farm - as you say far better that every home generates its own power from Ra - a campaign began here were we were beginning to do just that - Gov stamped on it quick march - they have kept 'Solar' primitive.

Just think if we truly could be our 'most excellent' - and not stamped on at every baby step - I grew up in a very very difficult family but they were an extraordinarily inventive lot - they could make engines which run on almost anything -

Whether or not there was poisonous Volcanic dust for many 100s of years or not, we were still talking about two different centuries -

We are winning against fracking here btw - well, in my area, The South Downs, anyway, further up north they have a big fight on their hands -

I love our Planet Wahbooz - and speak from there, love :) always
 

Wahbooz

Governor
Apposed to solar! Me? No absolutely not - I am forever saying it is the best way forward as are the unlimited possibilities of harnessing warmth from Mother Earth, I am also not totally opposed to harnessing energy from the tides, if done with love and care of the wild life, we are not being inventive with our knowledge - because the only ones who have the money to invest in our truly going forwards, being aspirational, inventive and so on, are those who think only of their own pockets -

You misunderstand me Wahbooz - I do not trust the Greens any longer for all sorts of reasons especially to do with their obsession about Wind Power over others, if only for the reason that it allows the Biggies to hold onto their control of us all, thus one of many reasons, I do not trust their politics any longer. I also on a purely aesthetic level do not want to see some of the most beautiful countryside in Britain, almost the whole of Wales, covered in a Wind Farm - as you say far better that every home generates its own power from Ra - a campaign began here were we were beginning to do just that - Gov stamped on it quick march - they have kept 'Solar' primitive.

Just think if we truly could be our 'most excellent' - and not stamped on at every baby step - I grew up in a very very difficult family but they were an extraordinarily inventive lot - they could make engines which run on almost anything -

Whether or not there was poisonous Volcanic dust for many 100s of years or not, we were still talking about two different centuries -

We are winning against fracking here btw - well, in my area, The South Downs, anyway, further up north they have a big fight on their hands -

I love our Planet Wahbooz - and speak from there, love :) always
The same kind of turbines are being used in energy collection in rivers, as well as tidal zones. People will say anything to shut down the alternative energy movement, and even some include those who claim to love the planet.

Wind has been used for centuries to generate energy of one kind or another. The Chinese sailed the globe long before Columbus, in ships vastly larger than Columbus's ships, and people claim it not to be true until the hulls of some of those ships were unearthed.

The Danes kept their homeland above water with wind power. Wind turbines 'kill' far far less birds than window covered skyscrapers, or airplanes, or cars, or pollution, or......... Is wind the only answer, no, but it is working here. Soon DTE Energy will be capable of powering a city 10 times the size of Ann Arbor, Michigan. It is not detrimental to the esthetics of the landscape, any more than the windmills of Denmark.

Queen, Laki has been erupting for centuries, as well as the other volcanoes in Iceland. And those eruptions become more frequent with the rise in global temperature. You're skirting facts with your this century or that century. Huaynaputina, Peru erupted in 1600, and lowered global temperatures to the coldest in 500 years. In 1610, Mt Thera, in Greece, erupted with the suspected power of a hundred atomic weapons. And there are a whole lot more volcanic eruptions in history, such as Mt Pinatubo in 1991. The Naysayer claimed back then the drop in global temperatures was proof global warming was a fallacy. Do a little research on volcanic activity and global temperatures. The planet is warming, and there is no denying it. Well.... in some circles there is I guess.
 
The same kind of turbines are being used in energy collection in rivers, as well as tidal zones. People will say anything to shut down the alternative energy movement, and even some include those who claim to love the planet.

Wind has been used for centuries to generate energy of one kind or another. The Chinese sailed the globe long before Columbus, in ships vastly larger than Columbus's ships, and people claim it not to be true until the hulls of some of those ships were unearthed.

The Danes kept their homeland above water with wind power. Wind turbines 'kill' far far less birds than window covered skyscrapers, or airplanes, or cars, or pollution, or......... Is wind the only answer, no, but it is working here. Soon DTE Energy will be capable of powering a city 10 times the size of Ann Arbor, Michigan. It is not detrimental to the esthetics of the landscape, any more than the windmills of Denmark.

Queen, Laki has been erupting for centuries, as well as the other volcanoes in Iceland. And those eruptions become more frequent with the rise in global temperature. You're skirting facts with your this century or that century. Huaynaputina, Peru erupted in 1600, and lowered global temperatures to the coldest in 500 years. In 1610, Mt Thera, in Greece, erupted with the suspected power of a hundred atomic weapons. And there are a whole lot more volcanic eruptions in history, such as Mt Pinatubo in 1991. The Naysayer claimed back then the drop in global temperatures was proof global warming was a fallacy. Do a little research on volcanic activity and global temperatures. The planet is warming, and there is no denying it. Well.... in some circles there is I guess.
I have not denied anything, I asked what the point of arguing over whether it is due to this that or the other is? It always seems such a waste of time to me, especially since so much money is involved, therefore, at the moment at least, we can't actually get any sensible answers from anywhere -let alone know of any sensible long term plans, if there are any.

We are up against corporate in this as in all else - they will not release control of us on any level easily and whilst they have us divided or rather confused; when it comes to Europe because we are, on the whole, very 'green' in our thinking; over the why of it all they are getting away with murder.

At the same time as they are pushing Wind, in the same breath they are pushing Fracking our fragile Island - and no where within the Established media can you find a balanced argument or assessment on either - I have been involved in the battle against fracking here which we have recently won - and thank God I live in the middle of important, precious, bird sanctuaries so we are unlikely to see or hear any bloody wind farms here either - as for solar panels on our roofs, those without thatch that is and so were built later than the 17th century, Gov is doing all it can to put a stop to that nonsense - sooooo I pan back and look at their actual message - or what they are actually up too - land grab is what, as usual on top of money for the 'boys'.

I have no problem with using wind or any element, I never have had, I simply do not like the methods used here - and if you don't find them unpleasing to the eye many do, including myself - that is though not my only argument against them - there are better ways and could be even better ways if we invested in the refining of and or the finding of them.

But we were not talking about 16'' anything we were talking about 15'' something- Wahbooz I learned all about the Volcanoes when I was 12, it is my History - I might be a bit rusty on much of it now but I do usually get my centuries right - whether there were or were not volcanoes errupting all over, I was only trying to get the dates in order - blimy, what are you arguing about?

I don't care about whether the Planet Earth is warming or not nor why - the difference it will make, politics apart, is that we must conserve and care better for it - which is my argument, we should be doing that anyway.
BUT - nothing I have seen or heard points to the plan being for anything other than money in a few pockets less in more pockets and no difference at all in love of our Earth - in fact what I see is the opposite - more poison and more and more and more - I see that utter madness has taken hold -

ps, There will be a difference in yours and my thinking only because you have very much Land and I live on an Island whose land is disappearing fast - in my life time I have watched us become the most densely populated country on the Planet - from being just what was normal - A friend who lives in Somerset was going on about another large farm somewhere having been taken over to become a Solar farm, the other day - OK - we want to use Ras power but - even more arable of our Land is now gone, needlessly - all of those Panels could have been put on roofs, all of them - but that would have taken control out of the corporate hands - SO, our argument is not against wind or solar or tide, if anything we were the fore runners - it is against the how not the what and the who and the how much -

Power should be ours - and then we get to the lack of investment into longer lasting batteries - and rare minerals and Wars - but it is Sat afternoon nearly and Ras rays are calling me out there to play :)
 
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Wahbooz

Governor
I have not denied anything, I asked what the point of arguing over whether it is due to this that or the other is? It always seems such a waste of time to me, especially since so much money is involved, therefore, at the moment at least, we can't actually get any sensible answers from anywhere -let alone know of any sensible long term plans, if there are any.

We are up against corporate in this as in all else - they will not release control of us on any level easily and whilst they have us divided or rather confused; when it comes to Europe because we are, on the whole, very 'green' in our thinking; over the why of it all they are getting away with murder.

At the same time as they are pushing Wind, in the same breath they are pushing Fracking our fragile Island - and no where within the Established media can you find a balanced argument or assessment on either - I have been involved in the battle against fracking here which we have recently won - and thank God I live in the middle of important, precious, bird sanctuaries so we are unlikely to see or hear any bloody wind farms here either - as for solar panels on our roofs, those without thatch that is and so were built later than the 17th century, Gov is doing all it can to put a stop to that nonsense - sooooo I pan back and look at their actual message - or what they are actually up too - land grab is what, as usual on top of money for the 'boys'.

I have no problem with using wind or any element, I never have had, I simply do not like the methods used here - and if you don't find them unpleasing to the eye many do, including myself - that is though not my only argument against them - there are better ways and could be even better ways if we invested in the refining of and or the finding of them.

But we were not talking about 16'' anything we were talking about 15'' something- Wahbooz I learned all about the Volcanoes when I was 12, it is my History - I might be a bit rusty on much of it now but I do usually get my centuries right - whether there were or were not volcanoes errupting all over, I was only trying to get the dates in order - blimy, what are you arguing about?

I don't care about whether the Planet Earth is warming or not nor why - the difference it will make, politics apart, is that we must conserve and care better for it - which is my argument, we should be doing that anyway.
BUT - nothing I have seen or heard points to the plan being for anything other than money in a few pockets less in more pockets and no difference at all in love of our Earth - in fact what I see is the opposite - more poison and more and more and more - I see that utter madness has taken hold -

ps, There will be a difference in yours and my thinking only because you have very much Land and I live on an Island whose land is disappearing fast - in my life time I have watched us become the most densely populated country on the Planet - from being just what was normal - A friend who lives in Somerset was going on about another large farm somewhere having been taken over to become a Solar farm, the other day - OK - we want to use Ras power but - even more arable of our Land is now gone, needlessly - all of those Panels could have been put on roofs, all of them - but that would have taken control out of the corporate hands - SO, our argument is not against wind or solar or tide, if anything we were the fore runners - it is against the how not the what and the who and the how much -

Power should be ours - and then we get to the lack of investment into longer lasting batteries - and rare minerals and Wars - but it is Sat afternoon nearly and Ras rays are calling me out there to play :)
Whatever, Queen, that's your island. Those of us who push green energy, including wind, solar and geothermal, do NOT push fracking. Perhaps your people have their priorities screwed up, but that is your people. Perhaps you need to send your people to Canada and see towns who are free of fossil fuel, and living a totally green lifestyle.

I'm bored.
 
Whatever, Queen, that's your island. Those of us who push green energy, including wind, solar and geothermal, do NOT push fracking. Perhaps your people have their priorities screwed up, but that is your people. Perhaps you need to send your people to Canada and see towns who are free of fossil fuel, and living a totally green lifestyle.

I'm bored.
Because you are arguing against someone who has been fighting for a totally green life style since the sixties but is simply unhappy about the way the fight has been usurped?

Friends of mine, who had a lot a lot of money, had wonderful plans in the early '70s for building a whole community worth of 'green homes', mounds which were semi underground, on their own Land - where they given permission? nope, nope and nope - and so it goes on and on and on - from here to eternity - fighting against the Corporate tide -

I did not accuse you of fighting for Fracking, I was talking about Gov/Corporate.
 
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Wahbooz

Governor
Because you are arguing against someone who has been fighting for a totally green life style since the sixties but is simply unhappy about the way the fight has been usurped?

Friends of mine, who had a lot a lot of money, had wonderful plans in the early '70s for building a whole community worth of 'green homes', mounds which were semi underground, on their own Land - where they given permission? nope, nope and nope - and so it goes on and on and on - from here to eternity - fighting against the Corporate tide -

I did not accuse you of fighting for Fracking, I was talking about Gov/Corporate.
Governments and corporations will not fight against fracking or drilling, because government has corporate in their wallet. It's up to every person to do so, and just because you are having a problem with wind there does not mean it doesn't work. It works just fine, like geothermal and solar. And as technology improves it will work even better, so will geothermal and solar. Canada has proven all three work, we are proving all three work, that is why I am bored with it now. And the fact that volcanic activity HAS affected weather conditions across the globe. Magic did not create a cooling of the climate at any time in history, volcanic activity and solar activity did; I don't care whether you argue 15th century, 16th century, 17th century or 18th century, nothing changes the facts.
 
Governments and corporations will not fight against fracking or drilling, because government has corporate in their wallet. It's up to every person to do so, and just because you are having a problem with wind there does not mean it doesn't work. It works just fine, like geothermal and solar. And as technology improves it will work even better, so will geothermal and solar. Canada has proven all three work, we are proving all three work, that is why I am bored with it now. And the fact that volcanic activity HAS affected weather conditions across the globe. Magic did not create a cooling of the climate at any time in history, volcanic activity and solar activity did; I don't care whether you argue 15th century, 16th century, 17th century or 18th century, nothing changes the facts.
I know Gov and Corperate are in it together! That is what I said - and what we have both seen forever as did our parents and grandparents and back back back -

Why are you trying to preach to the long long long converted?

Bollocks will new technology improve anything because 'they' won't invest beyond a fast and cheap and never ending profit - If that were so they would all be reusing the fumes spewing out all over the Planet from all the toxics they are burning. Norway and others have the technology to harness all toxic fumes/smoke/exhausts - engines can be run on almost anything - technology/our knowledge is owned by bastards who will not allow it achieve anything beyond their never ending profit.

Wind farms are a land grab - They already have better technology for harnessing wind and water and sun - jeez simply holding and letting loose water over and over, a man made water fall, will run enough energy for whole Cities - In theory we could even harness energy from cars running on roads -

Balance through compromise is always what we must do, there never can be an all out win, in this - What ever it is that 'they' insist on using to make our energy, however short sighted and stupid it is, to try to fight them by saying stop it completely and use this - they will spin it their way because they hold the power - letting us think we have won - have we fu'ck - Oh yes we have won against fracking here in the South, to some degree but we have not won the War, just one battle - so they give a little here and take a little there - For them it is a game and they hold the better hand -

Oil is what the whole World economy sits on, it is why the whole of the ME and Africa are in such a terrible state of chaos - are they going to give up our dependence on Oil? Of course not - But they throw us a bone now and then, which is always playing to their benefit in the end. they are such greedy bastards they want it all -

For eg - every one here has rubbish bins and recycling bins, both regularly collected by the Council - if we put the wrong thing in either we can be prosecuted - cool we think and every one is on board, especially the kids - and then we realize our Rubbish actually is owned by a Spanish company, in the case of the last place I lived, for 30 years (£££££ for the council ) and they may do what they wish with it - makes no difference how it is carefully sorted by us. ect -

Volcanoes are natural occurences we are talking about mans mismanagement in the gardening of Planet - so I really don't know what Volcanoes have to do with this argument, we simply misunderstood each other.

You are being aggressive when there is no need to be - we are on the same side - but you seem to have forgotten the realities in our histories and are railing against that which we have always railed against as a teenager might - Of course we despair at times - and it gets worse and worse - but if we are to fight them on every level we have to look at where they might/can give and fight that corner - as in better use of known technology in the areas that they will not give up -

The Greens also have an agenda - beware of them all - they win seats here and I have watched them carefully - they back off when they should not and fight were is is fruitless - I could go on but don't want to bore you any more.

It is up to us alone Wahbooz. The little people -
 
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