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Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice

G

gigi

Mayor
Craig said:
God holds grudges for 3 or 4 generations...I don't find that loving and forgiving. Jesus did say Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you. Yet God visits iniquities of the father to the children of his children...and his children...and his children.

The magic of The Bible is that it takes years of study to know what the words people can read for themselves actually say...;)
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It's not about a grudge God holds. It's about straightening up and raising our kids to obey God rather than raising them to be wicked. Wicked people tend to raise wicked kids. I'm sure you've heard "children learn what they see." The sins of the parents are often visited upon the kids in a couple ways...First, the kids imitate their parents, and in that way, evil doesn't quite beget evil,but rather cultivates it.
Punishment accompanies sin that one will not repent of. And God is saying that He will allow it, (he allows us to choose our own will) but they'll be punished accordingly. And second, sinful behavior of someone tends to yield natural consequences that not only the sinner but his family ends up enduring.And God will allow it.

But He also says right there same place.....those that love Him....which surely includes a child who rejects his parents' evil ways and chooses to obey God....will be shown mercy. The children's redemption is not only possible, but welcomed by God. God speaks about the reward right there in the same passage. It's not about a grudge. It's about reaping what you sew.

Jesus doesn't contradict the Father when He discusses repentance. He reiterates.
And yeah, Jesus says love your enemies. He explains that in the past we were told to love our neighbors as ourselves. Now He's talking about loving our enemies, too. That's not a contradiction. God spent generations raising us to the age where we could receive a commandment like that. If you look at the passage in the Gospel about marriage, where Jesus teaches that divorce is no longer permitted, He's asked why He says this if the law permits divorce. He explains that in the past, their hearts were too hard to accept this part of the law.
 
Wahbooz

Wahbooz

Governor
gigi said:
Those who are expert in the ancient languages do look at translation all the time.
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But where, and from whom, did they get their expertise? Do they understand the mindset that is generated by the language? I can tell you that the French had so much wrong when they 'learned' Anishnaabe.

Add to that the scrolls, which the Old Testament came from, were written and rewritten many times over. Quite often from scrolls that were in fragments. And if you consider that many Jewish archaeologists have found holes in the ancient stories, you have to question the voracity that comes from bibles people use today. I've also listened to Jewish scholars debate with Christian clergy over the content of the King James version, as well as other bibles, and heard them tell them what they are teaching is not true to the ancient manuscripts.
 
G

gigi

Mayor
Wahbooz said:
But where, and from whom, did they get their expertise? Do they understand the mindset that is generated by the language? I can tell you that the French had so much wrong when they 'learned' Anishnaabe.

Add to that the scrolls, which the Old Testament came from, were written and rewritten many times over. Quite often from scrolls that were in fragments. And if you consider that many Jewish archaeologists have found holes in the ancient stories, you have to question the voracity that comes from bibles people use today. I've also listened to Jewish scholars debate with Christian clergy over the content of the King James version, as well as other bibles, and heard them tell them what they are teaching is not true to the ancient manuscripts.
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They come by their expertise the same way the Jewish scholars you mentioned do, I suppose. I know two guys that I like to read have studied ancient languages and customs extensively. They would be Mitch Pacwa and Scott Hahn. Both very learned men when it comes to this topic.

I'm not sure what Jewish archeologists you're referring to or what holes you're meaning.
 
Wahbooz

Wahbooz

Governor
gigi said:
They come by their expertise the same way the Jewish scholars you mentioned do, I suppose. I know two guys that I like to read have studied ancient languages and customs extensively. They would be Mitch Pacwa and Scott Hahn. Both very learned men when it comes to this topic.

I'm not sure what Jewish archeologists you're referring to or what holes you're meaning.
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You'd have to see the documentary. In there they describe how some of the stories came to be, such as the Jewish 'discovery' of God. There are references to Yahweh long before the Jews used the term.
 
G

gigi

Mayor
Wahbooz said:
After having listened to a Rabbi discuss the 'virgin birth', and saying that the word for the mother of Emmanuel meant young woman, or young lady. I.E. , צעירה או זקנה

But the Hebrew word for virgin is בתולה

So is there confusion in the meaning of words? I don't know, you tell me.
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Hi Wahbooz. I tried to hit your link last night and from what I could see in a few seconds, it was all Hebrew? Not sure, because my machine crashed so I'm a little timid about trying it again.

As for the question, though, no, I don't think there is any confusion. Can a young woman be a virgin? Yes. Can a virgin be a young woman? Yes. In fact, I read something somewhere a while back about how they're going to go back to "young woman" in that passage of the prophesy that I'm thinking the rabbi was talking about. And in those days, it's mostlikely that describing someone as a "young woman" carried with it the statement about her virginity. I say this because in the time when Mary was a girl, a young woman who wasn't a virgin probably wasn't going to get the chance to get much older once she was found out. At the time of Christ's conception, Mary was a very young woman. As you mentioned, there's mindset of the time we're discussing to be considered.

If we stop there, that sort of sounds like a BS-begging-the-question answer. But Scripture clearly supports the fact that our blessed mother was a virgin at the time of Christ's conception. First , the angel greeted her with "Hail, full of grace." This is clear, she was without any sin. Man, because of sin, had fallen from grace. No one was in a state of grace. But Mary was....and is. Also, when the angel told Mary about God's having chosen her to bear Christ, she told him it was physically impossible and why. And the angel explained to Mary that the Spirit of God will cause her to conceive.
Going a bit further in the Gospel, St. Joseph, Mary's fiance at the time, was devastated upon hearing the news of Mary's pregnancy because he knew they hadn't consummated their betrothal yet. At the time, betrothed couples could live together as man and wife. Joseph was due to take Mary into his home but hadn't yet. After learning that she was pregnant, he planned to discreetly end the arrangement. And of course, the angel came to him and let him know everything was alright. The way it happened included a period of time where Mary's life was at risk, as well as her family's future.
If someone were writing a fantasy story, it would be easier and more time efficient to have the virgin move in with her fiance and then, before they came together, have the angel appear to both of them at once with the news. Remember, they weren't writing prose there. They were just looking to give accounts of events.

Brevity's not my strong point. Sorry about that. But ultimately, no, I don't think there can be any confusion. If we had been reading "young woman" in the Gospels all these centuries, we would still know from the same books that Mary was a virgin at the time of Christ's birth.
 
G

gigi

Mayor
Wahbooz said:
You'd have to see the documentary. In there they describe how some of the stories came to be, such as the Jewish 'discovery' of God. There are references to Yahweh long before the Jews used the term.
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I'd like to see it. If you ever remember the name or the name of the rabbi, please let me know and I'll look for it.
 
Wahbooz

Wahbooz

Governor
gigi said:
Hi Wahbooz. I tried to hit your link last night and from what I could see in a few seconds, it was all Hebrew? Not sure, because my machine crashed so I'm a little timid about trying it again.

As for the question, though, no, I don't think there is any confusion. Can a young woman be a virgin? Yes. Can a virgin be a young woman? Yes. In fact, I read something somewhere a while back about how they're going to go back to "young woman" in that passage of the prophesy that I'm thinking the rabbi was talking about. And in those days, it's mostlikely that describing someone as a "young woman" carried with it the statement about her virginity. I say this because in the time when Mary was a girl, a young woman who wasn't a virgin probably wasn't going to get the chance to get much older once she was found out. At the time of Christ's conception, Mary was a very young woman. As you mentioned, there's mindset of the time we're discussing to be considered.

If we stop there, that sort of sounds like a BS-begging-the-question answer. But Scripture clearly supports the fact that our blessed mother was a virgin at the time of Christ's conception. First , the angel greeted her with "Hail, full of grace." This is clear, she was without any sin. Man, because of sin, had fallen from grace. No one was in a state of grace. But Mary was....and is. Also, when the angel told Mary about God's having chosen her to bear Christ, she told him it was physically impossible and why. And the angel explained to Mary that the Spirit of God will cause her to conceive.
Going a bit further in the Gospel, St. Joseph, Mary's fiance at the time, was devastated upon hearing the news of Mary's pregnancy because he knew they hadn't consummated their betrothal yet. At the time, betrothed couples could live together as man and wife. Joseph was due to take Mary into his home but hadn't yet. After learning that she was pregnant, he planned to discreetly end the arrangement. And of course, the angel came to him and let him know everything was alright. The way it happened included a period of time where Mary's life was at risk, as well as her family's future.
If someone were writing a fantasy story, it would be easier and more time efficient to have the virgin move in with her fiance and then, before they came together, have the angel appear to both of them at once with the news. Remember, they weren't writing prose there. They were just looking to give accounts of events.

Brevity's not my strong point. Sorry about that. But ultimately, no, I don't think there can be any confusion. If we had been reading "young woman" in the Gospels all these centuries, we would still know from the same books that Mary was a virgin at the time of Christ's birth.
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Are you referring to the link to the Youtube video of the debate? Sometimes Youtube doesn't run properly, and you may have to refresh to get it to play. It's an interesting debate.

Fallen was not due to sexually active, it was from not following the commandment God gave to Adam and Eve. As the Rabbi said, there was a distinction between a 'young woman' and a 'virgin', and the words do support that. I suspect this is why, if they are, they are going to revert to 'young woman'. I probably am not spelling it correctly, but he specifically said 'alma' (sp) is 'young woman'.

The interesting part is Matthew has Christ saying he was sent as the Messiah of the Jess, and yet they do not accept him as Messiah. Matthew 15
 
Wahbooz

Wahbooz

Governor
I have no idea, gigi, but these videos are interesting. Search Youtube for 'Jews on Jesus' or the Messiah.

Try this series. Look for the other parts, this will give you an idea as to the Jewish view of a messiah.

 
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G

gigi

Mayor
Wahbooz said:
Are you referring to the link to the Youtube video of the debate? Sometimes Youtube doesn't run properly, and you may have to refresh to get it to play. It's an interesting debate.

Fallen was not due to sexually active, it was from not following the commandment God gave to Adam and Eve. As the Rabbi said, there was a distinction between a 'young woman' and a 'virgin', and the words do support that. I suspect this is why, if they are, they are going to revert to 'young woman'. I probably am not spelling it correctly, but he specifically said 'alma' (sp) is 'young woman'.

The interesting part is Matthew has Christ saying he was sent as the Messiah of the Jess, and yet they do not accept him as Messiah. Matthew 15
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I was referring to the link in your post, number 65.

If there's a distinction in the language between "young woman" and "virgin", it can't be an absolute either/or. One can be a young woman who is a virgin, and virgin who's a young woman. So again, looking at Scripture, Mary's virginity is obvious. I didn't mean to imply that Adam and Eve's sin was of a sexual nature. (although thinking about it now, I wonder) Rather, I was saying that since man fell from grace, no one was in a state of grace, except Mary. Mary committed no sins. Sexual behavior outside of marriage would have been considered a sin. Just offering that as another aspect of how Scripture supports the fact that she was a virgin at the time of Christ's conception.

I like a guy by the name of Brother Bob Fishman. He describes himself as "your little Jewish brother". He's a convert to Catholicism.He discusses the Jewish roots of Catholicism and especially of the Sacraments we practice. He's on EWTN from time to time and on Youtube. I also watch a program sometimes called The Jewish Jesus. That's good, too.
 
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