The essential nature of "faith".

fairsheet · Apr 26, 2015

Faith is misinterpreted by people on both sides of "the question". There are those who're made uncomfortable at the suggestion that there's anything we should simply accept because someone else "said so". There are others who see faith as some sort of "safe harbor" of beliefs that they needn't bother justifying.

Both miss the gist. "Faith" represents a baseline for us. Anyone who seriously thinks they're somehow "above" the need for absolutes, is deluded. Yet.....faith is NOT about ideas we needn't defend and justify. In fact, the truth is quite the opposite. Faith represents a set of ideas that we MUST defend and justify and we need that process of doing so.

As an example....your faith "tells you" that a woman's reproductive rights must be circumscribed by civil authority? Fine!!! I have no problem with that. Just don't tell me that it is the way it is.....per your faith. Tell me how and why your faith perspective "works". Your faith DEMANDS that of you. If you're not up to it, you're dissing your OWN faith perspective.

Days · Apr 27, 2015

fairsheet said:
Faith is misinterpreted by people on both sides of "the question". There are those who're made uncomfortable at the suggestion that there's anything we should simply accept because someone else "said so". There are others who see faith as some sort of "safe harbor" of beliefs that they needn't bother justifying.

Both miss the gist. "Faith" represents a baseline for us. Anyone who seriously thinks they're somehow "above" the need for absolutes, is deluded. Yet.....faith is NOT about ideas we needn't defend and justify. In fact, the truth is quite the opposite. Faith represents a set of ideas that we MUST defend and justify and we need that process of doing so.

As an example....your faith "tells you" that a woman's reproductive rights must be circumscribed by civil authority? Fine!!! I have no problem with that. Just don't tell me that it is the way it is.....per your faith. Tell me how and why your faith perspective "works". Your faith DEMANDS that of you. If you're not up to it, you're dissing your OWN faith perspective.

I think what you just discussed was "doctrine" which means "teaching". Faith is a fire, believing is something that happens when your spirit catches fire. We defend our doctrine, our doctrine says "do this" and "don't do that". Doctrine is in our brain. Faith is in our heart.

Addy · Apr 27, 2015

Not that well versed in the scriptures, but I have this belief, that if it can't be found in the teachings/words of the Bible, leave it alone. I have this thing about anyone ( adding to or taking away) from what is written there.

For some reason your post reminded me of this scripture below.
Although I'm quite sure you were headed in a different direction... I will post it regardless.

2 Timothy 2:15King James Version (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2 Timothy 2:16
But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Days · Apr 27, 2015

Addy said:
Not that well versed in the scriptures, but I have this belief, that if it can't be found in the teachings/words of the Bible, leave it alone. I have this thing about anyone ( adding to or taking away) from what is written there.

For some reason your post reminded me of this scripture below.
Although I'm quite sure you were headed in a different direction... I will post it regardless.

2 Timothy 2:15King James Version (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2 Timothy 2:16
But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Almost everyone, by common use, interchange the terms... but for the record:

Faith is a fire, not head knowledge. Faith is what burns in your spirit. Prophecy comes from inspiration and inspiration comes from faith. Faith is the source, as it were, the fuel for the inspiration of God that burns in our being.

Doctrine is a teaching, which is more than just ideas or knowledge, it is a way of life.

gigi · Apr 28, 2015

fairsheet said:
Faith is misinterpreted by people on both sides of "the question". There are those who're made uncomfortable at the suggestion that there's anything we should simply accept because someone else "said so". There are others who see faith as some sort of "safe harbor" of beliefs that they needn't bother justifying.

Both miss the gist. "Faith" represents a baseline for us. Anyone who seriously thinks they're somehow "above" the need for absolutes, is deluded. Yet.....faith is NOT about ideas we needn't defend and justify. In fact, the truth is quite the opposite. Faith represents a set of ideas that we MUST defend and justify and we need that process of doing so.

As an example....your faith "tells you" that a woman's reproductive rights must be circumscribed by civil authority? Fine!!! I have no problem with that. Just don't tell me that it is the way it is.....per your faith. Tell me how and why your faith perspective "works". Your faith DEMANDS that of you. If you're not up to it, you're dissing your OWN faith perspective.

I think you may have picked a bad example, fairsheet. What if one's religious faith happens to teach the same thing that science has proven...but teaches it for different reasons?

Addy · Apr 28, 2015

Days said:
Almost everyone, by common use, interchange the terms... but for the record:

Faith is a fire, not head knowledge. Faith is what burns in your spirit. Prophecy comes from inspiration and inspiration comes from faith. Faith is the source, as it were, the fuel for the inspiration of God that burns in our being.

Doctrine is a teaching, which is more than just ideas or knowledge, it is a way of life.

Faith comes from hearing the truth, and believing it...

Man made doctrines, are not considered as being in synch with the plan of our salvation according to teachings of the New Testament... becoming a Christian and behaving/obeying the Gospel as a true believer does require a Christian way of life...

Days · Apr 28, 2015

Addy said:
Faith comes from hearing the truth, and believing it...

...or hearing a Lie and believing it. What I was pointing at is the essence of faith, how it resides in the soul. If you look at the top post, he talks about how people too often tell him "my faith says this or that" - and Fairsheet has issue with that. What I am saying here is... in the first place, faith is different from doctrine, faith does not "say this or that", doctrine does that... faith is not a teaching (of the church) faith is what you believe in your heart. People are saying their faith says this or that, but in reality, it is their church doctrine that says this or that, not their faith, faith is not a church doctrine, faith is a fire that burns in our spirit. Jesus said he came to cast fire on the earth... that fire is the faith he started, not his teachings. The true faith of Jesus Christ comes from hearing the good news that he resurrected from the dead, and receiving his spirit of resurrection; the act of believing is not an intellectual exercise, it is the actual receiving of Christ spirit inside you. The faith is a fire that is passed from believer to believer, and each time it is planted as a new germination of spirit, hopefully grows inside the new believer and brings forth the fruit of the nature of Christ. The moment we first believe in Jesus resurrection and receive the Holy spirit into our spirit, we are born again, in the very real sense that we have entered a new life, an immortal life, a life set in heavenly places with Christ. We have this treasure in earthen vessels, where our bodies are likened to the temple in the old testament, and our faith is likened to the lampstand of fire that burned in the temple and was the only source of light inside the holy place.

Addy said:
Man made doctrines, are not considered as being in synch with the plan of our salvation according to teachings of the New Testament... becoming a Christian and behaving/obeying the Gospel as a true believer does require a Christian way of life...

okay you go to which doctrines are man made and which doctrines are from scripture, that's an encyclopedia in itself, no room here for all that. But you seem to agree with me that Christ' teaching is more than just ideas and knowledge, it is a way of life. What the top post is really upset about is dealing with posters who spit out doctrines as if the teachings of their church leaders were the final authority and those doctrines do not need to be proven, because they are taught by the church leaders, hence, that makes them true. It's a ridiculous tenet because the true nature of jesus teachings was not theological argument, it was a way of life. If you want to spit out theological argument, then defend it, I agree with Fair on this point.

gigi · Apr 28, 2015

Days said:
...or hearing a Lie and believing it. What I was pointing at is the essence of faith, how it resides in the soul. If you look at the top post, he talks about how people too often tell him "my faith says this or that" - and Fairsheet has issue with that. What I am saying here is... in the first place, faith is different from doctrine, faith does not "say this or that", doctrine does that... faith is not a teaching (of the church) faith is what you believe in your heart. People are saying their faith says this or that, but in reality, it is their church doctrine that says this or that, not their faith, faith is not a church doctrine, faith is a fire that burns in our spirit. Jesus said he came to cast fire on the earth... that fire is the faith he started, not his teachings. The true faith of Jesus Christ comes from hearing the good news that he resurrected from the dead, and receiving his spirit of resurrection; the act of believing is not an intellectual exercise, it is the actual receiving of Christ spirit inside you. The faith is a fire that is passed from believer to believer, and each time it is planted as a new germination of spirit, hopefully grows inside the new believer and brings forth the fruit of the nature of Christ. The moment we first believe in Jesus resurrection and receive the Holy spirit into our spirit, we are born again, in the very real sense that we have entered a new life, an immortal life, a life set in heavenly places with Christ. We have this treasure in earthen vessels, where our bodies are likened to the temple in the old testament, and our faith is likened to the lampstand of fire that burned in the temple and was the only source of light inside the holy place.

okay you go to which doctrines are man made and which doctrines are from scripture, that's an encyclopedia in itself, no room here for all that. But you seem to agree with me that Christ' teaching is more than just ideas and knowledge, it is a way of life. What the top post is really upset about is dealing with posters who spit out doctrines as if the teachings of their church leaders were the final authority and those doctrines do not need to be proven, because they are taught by the church leaders, hence, that makes them true. It's a ridiculous tenet because the true nature of jesus teachings was not theological argument, it was a way of life. If you want to spit out theological argument, then defend it, I agree with Fair on this point.

Sometimes people say "my faith teaches....." when discussing what the Church they learn in because they believe it speaks the fullest truth teaches. But I hope we're not suggesting that folks who say that mistake doctrine they understand for faith. Because that would be a real misrepresentation of what and why others believe and why they worship as they do.
People, particularly those critical of organized religion, sometimes refer to faith practices and sacraments as "man made." But that's a problem because Christ Himself practiced religious worship and ceremony. Also, people don't believe in doctrinal teaching because they go to a particular church. Maybe children, but that's about it. Adults tend to go to a particular church because they believe in the teachings.

Some people try to create an "either/or" truth that doesn' really exist: Either the Holy Spirit OR doctrine. It's a rule they make up for a view they made up.

Days · Apr 28, 2015

gigi said:
Sometimes people say "my faith teaches....." when discussing what the Church they learn in because they believe it speaks the fullest truth teaches. But I hope we're not suggesting that folks who say that mistake doctrine they understand for faith. Because that would be a real misrepresentation of what and why others believe and why they worship as they do.
People, particularly those critical of organized religion, sometimes refer to faith practices and sacraments as "man made." But that's a problem because Christ Himself practiced religious worship and ceremony. Also, people don't believe in doctrinal teaching because they go to a particular church. Maybe children, but that's about it. Adults tend to go to a particular church because they believe in the teachings.

Some people try to create an "either/or" truth that doesn' really exist: Either the Holy Spirit OR doctrine. It's a rule they make up for a view they made up.

The holy spirit is the life inside the believer that comes forth in their living. That's why I said Christ' teachings is a way of life. It isn't an outward form, it isn't a set of rules or behavior... that's the teaching of the law that Jesus was raised in, but his teaching was grace, following the spirit of God that was inside him (and only inside him when he was teaching). That's why he told us not to fret over what to say in those times when our back is against the wall, because the holy spirit would give us the words to speak when we need them, just trust in him.

I think arguing over doctrine is a moot point. Doesn't matter what the doctrine is, cuz Jesus taught us to live him, he left us fire, not doctrine. Every other prophet gave us a religion. But jesus gave us purely faith, he didn't leave a religion, he left that to the apostles, he just left behind that breath of resurrection. Strangest damn prophet ever; never wrote a word.

gigi · Apr 29, 2015

Days said:
The holy spirit is the life inside the believer that comes forth in their living. That's why I said Christ' teachings is a way of life. It isn't an outward form, it isn't a set of rules or behavior... that's the teaching of the law that Jesus was raised in, but his teaching was grace, following the spirit of God that was inside him (and only inside him when he was teaching). That's why he told us not to fret over what to say in those times when our back is against the wall, because the holy spirit would give us the words to speak when we need them, just trust in him.

I think arguing over doctrine is a moot point. Doesn't matter what the doctrine is, cuz Jesus taught us to live him, he left us fire, not doctrine. Every other prophet gave us a religion. But jesus gave us purely faith, he didn't leave a religion, he left that to the apostles, he just left behind that breath of resurrection. Strangest damn prophet ever; never wrote a word.

Yes, Jesus teaches us a way of life. For example, He taught us why to fast and how to fast. He said "when you fast" not "if you fast." So churches teach, in their doctrines, that we should fast. Some churches, to help us keep obedient to what Jesus taught about fasting, also impart direction for a day of the week to fast. People claim that's a man made doctrine when, in reality, it's simply a direction and reminder to keep faithful to that teaching of Christ.
Jesus taught us to share everything we have, even to the point that it's painful. So churches teach us, through their doctrines, about the perils of greed and selfishness. and that it's paramount to our salvation to clothe and feed each other.

Jesus also taught us humility, and to serve instead of seek to be served. But it's in our human nature to prioritize our own comforts and to experience pride. Churches teach us, through their doctrines, that this is a grave error. Maybe a Church imparts a ritual to us wherein we are marked with ashes to recall how the ancients repented of sin while at the same time reminding us that on our own, we're not all that. We have sins to repent for. We're made from dust, and if not for God, we would only end up dust again.
No one walks that perfect walk with Him on our own. No one. Churches, and their doctrines, intend to help us stay on that walk, and get back on when we've wandered off.

As for Jesus never writing a word....He's either god or He's not. The Bible is either the inerrant Word of God, or it's not. The fact that God used human hands upon the scrolls doesn't mean these are not His words.

Addy · Apr 29, 2015

Another POV on fasting...

*********
Christians are not commanded to fast under the New Testament law of Christ. Early New Testament Christians did not fast under all circumstances (Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33; Acts 13:2). Christ classified fasting as a matter of private devotion (Matthew 6:16-18).

The main purpose of fasting was to strengthen Christians in times of trial and adversity as well as sorrow and grief (Matthew 9:14-15; Acts 14:22-23; 1 Corinthians 7:5-6; 2

Corinthians 6:4-5). Fasting can be a source of spiritual blessing, a disciplining of the will resulting in an inward strength and power (Matthew 4:1-2).

Since we can find neither a certain time nor manner of observance for fasting in the New Testament, we can conclude that fasting is an activity determined by each individual.

Days · Apr 29, 2015

gigi said:
Yes, Jesus teaches us a way of life. For example, He taught us why to fast and how to fast. He said "when you fast" not "if you fast." So churches teach, in their doctrines, that we should fast. Some churches, to help us keep obedient to what Jesus taught about fasting, also impart direction for a day of the week to fast. People claim that's a man made doctrine when, in reality, it's simply a direction and reminder to keep faithful to that teaching of Christ.
Jesus taught us to share everything we have, even to the point that it's painful. So churches teach us, through their doctrines, about the perils of greed and selfishness. and that it's paramount to our salvation to clothe and feed each other.

Jesus also taught us humility, and to serve instead of seek to be served. But it's in our human nature to prioritize our own comforts and to experience pride. Churches teach us, through their doctrines, that this is a grave error. Maybe a Church imparts a ritual to us wherein we are marked with ashes to recall how the ancients repented of sin while at the same time reminding us that on our own, we're not all that. We have sins to repent for. We're made from dust, and if not for God, we would only end up dust again.
No one walks that perfect walk with Him on our own. No one. Churches, and their doctrines, intend to help us stay on that walk, and get back on when we've wandered off.

As for Jesus never writing a word....He's either god or He's not. The Bible is either the inerrant Word of God, or it's not. The fact that God used human hands upon the scrolls doesn't mean these are not His words.

Every other prophet, bar none, left us writings. That's kind of what a prophet does. Being a prophet that doesn't write, is like being a fish that doesn't swim. Messianic Islam gave us two prophets in the 19th century, the first one wrote 5 million words, the 2nd one wrote 6 million words. Very prolific prophets. I see where David and jeremiah ended their words, saying, that's it, I'm finished, I've got no more, and then they both add more. Prophets write, that's what they do. And Jesus was taught in letters, it's not like he couldn't write, he just didn't write. I know why he did it, I know he was the Lamb of God and primary mission was to release the Holy Spirit into mankind, but it remains absolutely amazing that a prophet of God fulfilled his mission and never wrote a word. His teachings were all about life, but they were not commandments, the only commandment he left us was to love one another... and to love God.

Days · Apr 29, 2015

fairsheet said:
Faith represents a set of ideas that we MUST defend and justify and we need that process of doing so....

Tell me how and why your faith perspective "works". Your faith DEMANDS that of you. If you're not up to it, you're dissing your OWN faith perspective.

Faith is a fire. Our souls are the fuel. The fire gives off light and warmth. Lots of people can't see the light, but feel the warmth... I was one of those, I was attracted to the kindness of Christians, I wanted to be a nice person like that. (still working on it, obviously)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Jesus never gave us a religion, he left us a faith, he left tongues of fire, but he never set up a religion. The apostles attempted that, but I'm not sure it was a conscious effort. It was more or less demanded of the apostles, they didn't set about to do it, all they set about to do was spread the faith.

Woolleybugger · Apr 29, 2015

They lived in ignorance, poverty, despair, ruin, slavery and constant death and fear. Their ideas and words are historical footnotes not timeless truths.

Days · Apr 29, 2015

Woolleybugger said:
They lived in ignorance, poverty, despair, ruin, slavery and constant death and fear. Their ideas and words are historical footnotes not timeless truths.

"They" = all mankind? ... or just the prophets?

fairsheet · Apr 30, 2015

gigi said:
I think you may have picked a bad example, fairsheet. What if one's religious faith happens to teach the same thing that science has proven...but teaches it for different reasons?

This is exactly what I'm getting at. Your example would've worked better if you'd suggested that faith and science teach the opposite from one another.

fairsheet · Apr 30, 2015

Days said:
I think what you just discussed was "doctrine" which means "teaching". Faith is a fire, believing is something that happens when your spirit catches fire. We defend our doctrine, our doctrine says "do this" and "don't do that". Doctrine is in our brain. Faith is in our heart.

Any discussion that includes both the word "brain" (or head), and "heart", goes to some sort of distinction and contrast between the two. I'm arguing against that. I'm suggesting that IF our faith is worthy of being "our faith", we must seek to justify it within a rational context.

BTW, "They say" something about how, "It's not the destination, but the journey."...or something like that. The key is the good faith effort to reconcile the two, not the fact of our ever feeling (falsely, btw), that we've actually accomplished that end. Faith is useless to we humans - once again - as soon as we put in some category of things that needn't be pondered.

Days · Apr 30, 2015

fairsheet said:
Any discussion that includes both the word "brain" (or head), and "heart", goes to some sort of distinction and contrast between the two. I'm arguing against that. I'm suggesting that IF our faith is worthy of being "our faith", we must seek to justify it within a rational context.

BTW, "They say" something about how, "It's not the destination, but the journey."...or something like that. The key is the good faith effort to reconcile the two, not the fact of our ever feeling (falsely, btw), that we've actually accomplished that end. Faith is useless to we humans - once again - as soon as we put in some category of things that needn't be pondered.

Read down your thread, we discuss the difference between faith and doctrine. It's a good thread, Fair.

fairsheet · Apr 30, 2015

Days said:
Read down your thread, we discuss the difference between faith and doctrine. It's a good thread, Fair.

If I hadn't reviewed the thread, I wouldn't be challenging its conclusions.

Days · Apr 30, 2015

fairsheet said:
If I hadn't reviewed the thread, I wouldn't be challenging its conclusions.

okie dokie
your question was answered... thoroughly.
This is some of the best posting I've ever done on faith and Christ teaching, but I don't think you are getting it. Did you see where I agreed with you on this point?

"If you want to spit out theological argument, then defend it, I agree with Fair on this point."

The essential nature of "faith".

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