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Bruce Jenner comes out

I already answered your questions, as you know.
Of course you didn't.

1. Where is your evidence of Republican "squirming"?
2. Where is your evidence Chuck Norris spoke at a national GOP convention?
3. Why do you no longer support Jenner?

Dodge away...or you could apologize for lying (lol)
 

Bugsy McGurk

President
Of course you didn't.

1. Where is your evidence of Republican "squirming"?
2. Where is your evidence Chuck Norris spoke at a national GOP convention?
3. Why do you no longer support Jenner?

Dodge away...or you could apologize for lying (lol)
Forget it - you've lapsed into full dissembling mode.

If you can lift yourself from that mode and meet my dare, do it.

I am not optimistic.

;-)
 

connieb

Senator
I'm not making fun of him, any more than I'd make fun of someone who wants webbed fingers. People's bodies are their own property and I believe they should feel perfectly at liberty to do whatever they want with those bodies, so long as they're not harming anyone else. If having his penis cut off would make Jenner happy, then he ought to do so. I don't have any problem with that.

What I'm struggling with is simply the insistence on artificial, socially-constructed ideas of gender. Jenner says "I am a woman." What, specifically, does that mean? It doesn't mean he has a female chromosome set, or even an intersexual one. He was a fertile male, strongly suggesting he's a run-of-the-mill XY. Nor does he have female anatomical features -- not even artificially constructed ones. Nor does he exhibit typical female sexual preferences. So, what makes him a woman? His pony tail? Lots of men have those and wouldn't want to be called women because of that.

When he says "I am a woman," I guess he's saying he thinks of himself as a woman. And I have no problem with that. He could think of himself as a unicorn and I'd be fine with that. It's his life, and if it makes him happy to think of himself as a woman, by all means he should do so. He's not hurting anyone. But the press circus around this seems to suggest that he finds it important for society as a whole to identify him as a woman, and that's the part I don't get. If others in society define "woman" in a more traditional way -- with reference to chromosomes or anatomy -- shouldn't they, likewise, be free to do that?

As a social liberal, I've been quite comfortable with the erosion of the artificial social construct of gender. I'm glad that, these days, men are free to love men, women to love women, men to be homemakers, woman to be careerists, men to wear their hair long, women to wear trousers, men to be emotional sensitive, women to be sexually aggressive, and so on. When it comes to that artificial definition of gender in social terms, I say "good riddance to bad rubbish." We're all freer and will be happier without it. But for that very reason, I'm skeptical about attempts by transgender people to insist on its importance, by trying to subscribe to a gender construct that has nothing to do with biology. When a biological male says "I'm a woman," I'm just stuck at saying "what does that even mean?"

I agree with your last paragraph. I have grown up believing that men and women are equal in every way that matters. There is nothing that should be off limits to either one. You want to wear a dress - have at it. You want to work construction - have at it. You want to be a SAHD - have at it. There isn't mens work or women's work anymore. So then why the hell does it matter if you "live your life" as a woman? Its to me - taking us back. If we are equal - can do everything the other can do then why is there a need to change your body? I don't get dressed and revel that I "feel like a woman" I may want to feel "sexy" but that is more about how I want to be perceived by my mate... not because I want to feel more of a woman. If there really are no barriers - as there should be - then WHY does it really matter if you are anatomically a man or a woman?

connie
 

Zoar

Governor
If it "anguishes" him so much, why would he do it? Seems he'd become a democrat if he feels that way. I know a few people that say they're republicans but it's hard to believe they really are. After living with the Kardashians as long as he has, it's hard to believe he says what he does.
It would seem to you only because that is WHAT YOU WANT. Per usual, what is has nothing to do with the way you think reality should be.
 

Caroljo

Senator
It would seem to you only because that is WHAT YOU WANT. Per usual, what is has nothing to do with the way you think reality should be.
No...if I were "anguished" over something, that means I'm troubled by it. I'm sure he is...someone like him would fit in better with Democrats anyway, they would treat him like a king!
 

Zoar

Governor
No...if I were "anguished" over something, that means I'm troubled by it. I'm sure he is...someone like him would fit in better with Democrats anyway, they would treat him like a king!
Once again YOU THINK it should be this way but it is not that way at all. You can sit here all day long and say Jenner should be a Democrat but it will not make it any closer to reality. Jenner is a REPUBLICAN. Heavily in denial. Like someone else we know here in PJ,
 

Arkady

President
you seem to have no sense of the mental component of gender for someone who's trapped in a body that differs from what s/he feels he is.
If someone feels like he's trapped in a body that differs from the one he wants, I'm enthusiastically in favor of him doing whatever he'd like to do to change his body. He's the one who has to live with it, so he shouldn't hesitate to make any alterations he'd like. But, I just don't buy into the socially constructed elements of gender. I feel that anyone should be free to live any way he wants so long as he doesn't hurt others, and that means throwing all the socially dictated concepts of gender out the window. But, once you've chucked those out the window, what does being a woman or a man even mean, aside from the fundamental biological realities?

what about the hermaphrodites/intersex who've been assigned their gender by parents
For such people, there's no neat fit with either biological category. We really ought to have a third category to accommodate that. But, absent that, for the sake of simplicity, I'm happy to treat them as being in whichever category they'd like. In fact, just for the sake of politeness, I'll treat anybody, intersex or not, as being of whatever category they like. It's not terribly difficult to accommodate, and if it makes them happy, why not? But, I do question why someone else's happiness would, in any way, depend on my definition of gender, or society's in general.

I'd analogize it to the issue around gay marriage. With gay marriage, there's a legal question, and then just a question of terminology. Legally, I believe in equal protection under the law, so I would insist on homosexual couples getting access to the same legally recognized marriages as heterosexual couples. But if someone wants to say that a given legal marriage isn't really a "marriage" as far as he's concerned (e.g., a Catholic who doesn't recognize as properly married a couple where one of the members was previously married and didn't have that marriage annulled by the church), then that's fine, too. It's perfectly acceptable for two different people to have two different ideas of what constitutes a marriage, so long as the law isn't discriminating. And, likewise, if someone wants to say that someone is a man because he has XY chromosomes, regardless of what surgical and chemical alternations he's made, and regardless of how he personally identifies, that's fine. Two people can have two different definitions of gender so long as the law isn't discriminating against anyone.
 

Arkady

President
I agree with your last paragraph. I have grown up believing that men and women are equal in every way that matters. There is nothing that should be off limits to either one. You want to wear a dress - have at it. You want to work construction - have at it. You want to be a SAHD - have at it. There isn't mens work or women's work anymore. So then why the hell does it matter if you "live your life" as a woman? Its to me - taking us back. If we are equal - can do everything the other can do then why is there a need to change your body? I don't get dressed and revel that I "feel like a woman" I may want to feel "sexy" but that is more about how I want to be perceived by my mate... not because I want to feel more of a woman. If there really are no barriers - as there should be - then WHY does it really matter if you are anatomically a man or a woman?

connie
I too wonder "why the hell does it matters if you 'live your life' as a woman." At one point, that was a very meaningful distinction in this society, when there were various things that were only open to women or to men in our society. I could especially see wanting to transition from female to male in our past, when society set such strict limits on women that it was practically impossible to get a decent education if you were female. But in the modern era, it's not even clear to me what "live your life as a woman" or "...as a man" would mean. Live your life as you want to, and if someone says that's a problem because you're a woman or a man, don't let their hang-ups bother you.

That said, where we may disagree (I wasn't clear from your post) is about whether people should be permitted to change their bodies. I'm all for allowing it. I, personally, can't understand why people fixate on it -- not just when it comes to sexual anatomy but with regard to any such superficial matters. I don't have any tattoos or piercings, for example. I see no need to make alterations in my body, other than functional ones (e.g., lifting weights because I like to be stronger). But if someone else wants to get her ears pierced, or get a tattoo, or have a nose job, or a sex change, I've got no issue with that, any more than I'd have a problem with someone remodeling her house. We're happier if we're comfortable in our bodies, and whatever makes someone more comfortable is fine by me, as long as she's not hurting nayone else.
 

connieb

Senator
I too wonder "why the hell does it matters if you 'live your life' as a woman." At one point, that was a very meaningful distinction in this society, when there were various things that were only open to women or to men in our society. I could especially see wanting to transition from female to male in our past, when society set such strict limits on women that it was practically impossible to get a decent education if you were female. But in the modern era, it's not even clear to me what "live your life as a woman" or "...as a man" would mean. Live your life as you want to, and if someone says that's a problem because you're a woman or a man, don't let their hang-ups bother you.

That said, where we may disagree (I wasn't clear from your post) is about whether people should be permitted to change their bodies. I'm all for allowing it. I, personally, can't understand why people fixate on it -- not just when it comes to sexual anatomy but with regard to any such superficial matters. I don't have any tattoos or piercings, for example. I see no need to make alterations in my body, other than functional ones (e.g., lifting weights because I like to be stronger). But if someone else wants to get her ears pierced, or get a tattoo, or have a nose job, or a sex change, I've got no issue with that, any more than I'd have a problem with someone remodeling her house. We're happier if we're comfortable in our bodies, and whatever makes someone more comfortable is fine by me, as long as she's not hurting nayone else.

Oh, I have no problem if you want to spend thousands to lop off your tallywacker or get other plastic surgery piercings or tatoos, etc. Is your castle decorate it as you wish.

But, it is permanent. I also question the health effects of long term hormone treatments, etc. And, I can't fathom why it isn't more responsible, from a mental health standpoint, to try to help a person learn to love the skin they are in, rather than - to feel they need to change their skin - to suit gender stereotypes that are made up largely in their own heads. With very few exceptions - these men - make some horrendously ugly women. AND - as a woman - I can say that most biological women - are uncomfortable when they are the biggest chick in the room, which is what you get when a 6ft tall 220 lb MAN tries to turn into a chick. The end result is so far from the classic examples of "feminine" beauty, that it is almost as if they are a parody of it. I feel like honestly, that someone would have done them a greater service to say - dude.. if you are going for becoming a beautiful woman because that is what you feel like - you have completely missed the mark - it will never happen. That whole "i fell pretty" isn't going to be you. It is like they are caricatures of women, rather than real biological women. And, that is what makes me feel like - it is more of a mental health issue, than a true desire to decorate your own castle. Because while I feel beauty is in the eye of the beholder... there are some cases where you may need glasses and someone should be honest enough to tell you that.




connie
 
Oh, I have no problem if you want to spend thousands to lop off your tallywacker or get other plastic surgery piercings or tatoos, etc. Is your castle decorate it as you wish.

But, it is permanent. I also question the health effects of long term hormone treatments, etc. And, I can't fathom why it isn't more responsible, from a mental health standpoint, to try to help a person learn to love the skin they are in, rather than - to feel they need to change their skin - to suit gender stereotypes that are made up largely in their own heads. With very few exceptions - these men - make some horrendously ugly women. AND - as a woman - I can say that most biological women - are uncomfortable when they are the biggest chick in the room, which is what you get when a 6ft tall 220 lb MAN tries to turn into a chick. The end result is so far from the classic examples of "feminine" beauty, that it is almost as if they are a parody of it. I feel like honestly, that someone would have done them a greater service to say - dude.. if you are going for becoming a beautiful woman because that is what you feel like - you have completely missed the mark - it will never happen. That whole "i fell pretty" isn't going to be you. It is like they are caricatures of women, rather than real biological women. And, that is what makes me feel like - it is more of a mental health issue, than a true desire to decorate your own castle. Because while I feel beauty is in the eye of the beholder... there are some cases where you may need glasses and someone should be honest enough to tell you that.




connie
That's a very good point. In the past, a lot of mental illnesses we now know are very treatable were "cured" with a body modification procedure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy
 

JuliefromOhio

President
Supporting Member
If someone feels like he's trapped in a body that differs from the one he wants, I'm enthusiastically in favor of him doing whatever he'd like to do to change his body. He's the one who has to live with it, so he shouldn't hesitate to make any alterations he'd like. But, I just don't buy into the socially constructed elements of gender. I feel that anyone should be free to live any way he wants so long as he doesn't hurt others, and that means throwing all the socially dictated concepts of gender out the window. But, once you've chucked those out the window, what does being a woman or a man even mean, aside from the fundamental biological realities?



For such people, there's no neat fit with either biological category. We really ought to have a third category to accommodate that. But, absent that, for the sake of simplicity, I'm happy to treat them as being in whichever category they'd like. In fact, just for the sake of politeness, I'll treat anybody, intersex or not, as being of whatever category they like. It's not terribly difficult to accommodate, and if it makes them happy, why not? But, I do question why someone else's happiness would, in any way, depend on my definition of gender, or society's in general.

I'd analogize it to the issue around gay marriage. With gay marriage, there's a legal question, and then just a question of terminology. Legally, I believe in equal protection under the law, so I would insist on homosexual couples getting access to the same legally recognized marriages as heterosexual couples. But if someone wants to say that a given legal marriage isn't really a "marriage" as far as he's concerned (e.g., a Catholic who doesn't recognize as properly married a couple where one of the members was previously married and didn't have that marriage annulled by the church), then that's fine, too. It's perfectly acceptable for two different people to have two different ideas of what constitutes a marriage, so long as the law isn't discriminating. And, likewise, if someone wants to say that someone is a man because he has XY chromosomes, regardless of what surgical and chemical alternations he's made, and regardless of how he personally identifies, that's fine. Two people can have two different definitions of gender so long as the law isn't discriminating against anyone.
neither you or connie appear to have any understanding of the mental component of gender for someone who's trapped in a body that differs from what s/he feels he is. it takes openness and empathy to imagine the suffering of those folks. Arkady, I understand you rely on data and science and connie stays in the intellectual realm because she's so empathy-challenged, so continue with your intellectualized tut-tutting. I'm outa here.
 
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