The TPP... Good or Bad?

BAD - Very very bad.

Queen Titania said:

BAD - Very very bad.

Click to expand...

This is more a delicate issue than I thought..... I expected a quick turn out on this one but apparently its a bit of a hot potato.

justoffal said:

Will the Jobs supposedly generated from this deal outweigh the jobs that will be lost by it? How can we prove/disprove this?

Click to expand...

That would be difficult to do until the government makes the full text of this agreement available to all its citizens; the biggest problem I have with those supporting the TPP comes from suspecting they haven't even read all (or any of) the 29 chapters of the "trade" agreement.
"Although it is called a 'free trade' agreement, the TPP is not mainly about trade. Of TPP's 29 draft chapters, only five deal with traditional trade issues.

"One chapter would provide incentives to offshore jobs to low-wage countries.

"Many would impose limits on government policies that we rely on in our daily lives for safe food, a clean environment, and more. Our domestic federal, state and local policies would be required to comply with TPP rules."
http://www.citizen.org/TPP

Notice how eerily quiet the radical retards on the left are with crony HOPE/CHANGE joining NEO CONS invoking Cheney like transparancy on rushing the top-secret Trans Pacific Partnership sellout of Main Street America to IMF/global central bankzing interests?

Guess it's not easy for the brain dead defending such a obvious betrayel without proper propaganda guidance from the "ONE they all have been waiting for"

justoffal said:

This is more a delicate issue than I though..... I expected a quick turn out on this one but apparently its a bit of a hot potato.

Click to expand...

Most people don't know about it and most of those who do, understand it not.

If Obama is for it..it benefits only the one percenters.

worldlymrb said:

Notice how eerily quiet the radical retards on the left are with crony HOPE/CHANGE joining NEO CONS invoking Cheney like transparancy on rushing the top-secret Trans Pacific Partnership sellout of Main Street America to IMF/global central bankzing interests?

Guess it's not easy for the brain dead defending such a obvious betrayel without proper propaganda guidance from the "ONE they all have been waiting for"

Click to expand...

Left and right I fear - It has the same sort of level of 'understanding' as does any EU Law making here, I have noticed. I have come to the conclusion that most people simply can't fathom how rules or laws can be imposed from outside our own Governments --- 'Were we invaded in the night whilst I was sleeping?' - 'Nope we were not so it is impossible for anyone but our Gov to govern over us' --- Their eyes glaze over and they start to either spout popularist propaganda or change the subject. Right and Left are the same, they don't want to talk about it because it is too big.

worldlymrb said:

Notice how eerily quiet the radical retards on the left are with crony HOPE/CHANGE joining NEO CONS invoking Cheney like transparancy on rushing the top-secret Trans Pacific Partnership sellout of Main Street America to IMF/global central bankzing interests?

Click to expand...

Not unlike Dick's claim that Reagan proved deficits don't matter? Maybe a majority of US voters will come to believe there's no significant difference between Democrat and Republican economic policies since they both benefit the same 1% of voters?

georgephillip said:

Not unlike Dick's claim that Reagan proved deficits don't matter? Maybe a majority of US voters will come to believe there's no significant difference between Democrat and Republican economic policies since they both benefit the same 1% of voters?

Click to expand...

Here is the fundamental difference between Reagan helping the 1% and HOPE/CHANGE helping the 1%.

Reagan let the rich keep more of what they earned knowing 4,000 years of history proved individuals invest their own money much more wisely than unaccountable lying corrupt politicians do. These wise investments make money much more productive and are more likely to be used as capital investments to produce more goods/services (resulting in more jobs and more affordable goods and services), than how corrupt/bankrupt govts (financed by central banks) spends other people's monies on ridiculous wars, bridges to nowhere, and getting reelected.

Whereas Obama helped the 1% by cutting them a $85B QE/Stimulus/Bailout check every month and call it HOPE/CHANGE.

Profit diference for the 1% between REAGAN/OBAMA in pictures.



Granted there is corruption in both systems. At least the private Robber Barron's in America's free market capitalism of 19th century built monuments like free libraries (Andrew Carnegie), hospitals (Melons), education (Ford $ Rockefellers), which actually helped the poor. Unlike today's Robber Barron's Pelosi/Kennedy's/ and Clintons who create foundations to help make illegal campaign contributions and promote cronyism and monuments to themselves.

worldlymrb said:

Here is the fundamental difference between Reagan helping the 1% and HOPE/CHANGE helping the 1%. Reagan let the rich keep more of what they earned knowing 4,000 years of history proved individuals invest their own money much more wisely than unaccountable lying corrupt politicians do. These wise investments make money much more productive and are more likely to produce more goods/services than corrupt/bankrupt govt owned by central banks can.

Click to expand...

Of course, many of those rich individuals decided to invest their own money outside of the US, contributing to a 7% decline in the growth of American jobs. Reagan's dictum "the government is the problem" not only accelerated de-industrialization in the US it also spiked federal debt levels from $934 billion in 1981 to $2.7 trillion in '89. No, I don't believe Obama is any less of a threat to productive US workers; they both represent what's wrong with America, imho.

georgephillip said:

Not unlike Dick's claim that Reagan proved deficits don't matter?

Click to expand...

We are now beginning to realize the truth. Deficits don't matter when you can afford to make the interest payments or have private central banks monetize the debt (QE).

However, one way or another, the debt must be paid in the end.. And we all know who will get stuck paying it. HINT: Our Children ( and for several generations)

georgephillip said:

decided to invest their own money outside of the US, contributing to a 7% decline in the growth of American jobs.

Click to expand...

Not true. Reagan recovery starting in 1983 was averaging 250,000 new high paying full time jobs each month when the U.S. Population was 210M.

Today, we LOSE 500,000 high paying full time jobs each month and replace them with 750,000 minimum wage part-time jobs and call it growth.

Of course one look at the chart below shows who is benefiting the most from this crony growth.

HINT: It's the evil 1% who own nearly half the DOW.


And BTW: Please tell how a country with lower taxes is an incentive to move your capital to another country?

If there is ever a reason for capital to flee a country is when the tax burden and regulations make the cost of labor prohibitive, and then sign secret trade deals making it easier to import from low labor countries. NAFTA/TPP

worldlymrb said:

We are now beginning to realize the truth. Deficits don't matter when you can afford to make the interest payments or have private central banks monetize the debt (QE).

However, one way or another, the debt must be paid in the end.. And we all know who will get stuck paying it. HINT: Our Children ( and for several generations)

Click to expand...

There's no doubt about that; some of the debt from the war to end all wars is still being serviced:
"Chancellor George Osborne is to pay off the UK government's remaining debt from World War One, the Treasury has announced.

"The government will repay the outstanding £1.9bn of debt from a 3.5% War Loan on 9 March 2015."

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30306579

justoffal said:

The Trans-Pacific Partnership. ( or Altermately The Trenchmouthed Political Prostitute..... we welcome more acronym renditions on this! )

Let me preface this post by handing a hearty back slap to Liz Warren for standing up strong and unafraid in the face of the Jarett/Axelrod cabal on this Issue. I have always like her schtick....and lately I like it more and more. But I digress.

Now I expect the financial heavyweights here to weigh in on this too....you know who you are and let's not be bashful here.....this is a very important issue and a massively important piece of legislation either in its implementation or ultimately its rejection.

Also the link above is a negative one about the TPP....I am not necessarily negative about it just yet but I am suspicious of it.

I have been reading up on this for about two months now and from what I can discern this is the layout.

1.) It would increase the total $$$$ commerce between American buyers and foreign manufacturers by as much as thirty percent immediately....or so they claim. The theory apparently is that the money is already being spend on defunct regulatory barriers that add nothing to the commercial process.....( is that true? anyone? ) The partnership legislation is really nothing more than the destruction of those so called barriers.....anyone?

2.) It would open up new markets for American goods produced here by both small and large businesses. ( Ummmm I'm having real trouble believing that but maybe somebody here can instruct me as to my paranoia on this issue....that's why I'm posting it frankly )

3.) Two billion is being set aside for retraining .....( Hmmm that's a very big red flag in my book...what about you guys? )

4.) The claim is being made that if we don't move on this.... China will....???? ( HUH? ....WTF? What does that even mean???? )

Questions:

Will the Jobs supposedly generated from this deal outweigh the jobs that will be lost by it? How can we prove/disprove this?

If the Government is already conceding retraining money are they not openly confessing to the destruction of home grown Jobs?

If the China claim is true will those jobs be lost anyway?

If Liz Warren who is normally a lockstep lefty doesn't like it....how bad must it be?

Does it give tacit approval to sweatshop mentality?

Does it ignore the travesties of child labor?

Does it put downward pressure on the already beleaguered North American Wage tables?

I could go on but I am sure there are other more relevant questions that I am missing.


Plese contribute you thoughts on this pressing matter....this is going to affect you no matter who you are.

Oh and PS! I find it fascinating that the GOP is split on this one! What say you?

JO

Click to expand...

Come now lefties! This is a very important matter! Arkady? Where are you???? Have you no opinion on this one?

Hey Bugs! Whatsamatta? Surely you must have a comment about this...

Zoar? Julie? Where are you?

JO

justoffal said:

This is more a delicate issue than I thought..... I expected a quick turn out on this one but apparently its a bit of a hot potato.

Click to expand...

Consider the opposite possibility.

zzigzzag said:

Consider the opposite possibility.

Click to expand...

Hmmm....you might be on to something....however that is a dangerous malaise because this is absolutely the most important legislation to come down the pike in the past twenty years it positiviely dwarves Health care. If you are correct.....and I suspect that you may be....this population of DoDos get's exactly what they deserve.

JO

justoffal said:

Hmmm....you might be on to something....however that is a dangerous malaise because this is absolutely the most important legislation to come down the pike in the past twenty years it positiviely dwarves Health care. If you are correct.....and I suspect that you may be....this population of DoDos get's exactly what they deserve.

JO

Click to expand...

I'm against it.

I'm all in for Bernie Sanders. He's my new Messiah.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/the-trans-pacific-trade-tpp-agreement-must-be-defeated?inline=file

justoffal said:

Hmmm....you might be on to something....however that is a dangerous malaise because this is absolutely the most important legislation to come down the pike in the past twenty years it positiviely dwarves Health care. If you are correct.....and I suspect that you may be....this population of DoDos get's exactly what they deserve.

JO

Click to expand...

If any legislation should unite progressives and conservatives, the TPP is at the top of my list. Perhaps one reason people are not paying more attention is the absolute secrecy that's surrounded the negotiations so far. Many voters in both major parties should hear echos of Clinton's support for NAFTA when they listen to Obama on the TPP today.

Fortunately, not all DC Democrats and Republicans are keeping quiet:

"WASHINGTON, DC – United States Senator Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) today released a report highlighting more than two decades of failed enforcement by the United States of labor and environmental standards included in past free trade agreements (FTAs), including the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), Central American Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA), and agreements with Peru, Colombia, and Panama. The report follows recent statements by President Obama that the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) will be 'the most progressive trade bill in history' and that it will have 'higher labor standards, higher environmental standards,' and 'new tools to hold countries accountable.' Similar statements were made by previous Presidents of both parties about every major U.S. trade agreement, from NAFTA forward."

http://www.warren.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=819

georgephillip said:

If any legislation should unite progressives and conservatives, the TPP is at the top of my list. Perhaps one reason people are not paying more attention is the absolute secrecy that's surrounded the negotiations so far. Many voters in both major parties should hear echos of Clinton's support for NAFTA when they listen to Obama on the TPP today.

Fortunately, not all DC Democrats and Republicans are keeping quiet:

"WASHINGTON, DC – United States Senator Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) today released a report highlighting more than two decades of failed enforcement by the United States of labor and environmental standards included in past free trade agreements (FTAs), including the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), Central American Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA), and agreements with Peru, Colombia, and Panama. The report follows recent statements by President Obama that the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) will be 'the most progressive trade bill in history' and that it will have 'higher labor standards, higher environmental standards,' and 'new tools to hold countries accountable.' Similar statements were made by previous Presidents of both parties about every major U.S. trade agreement, from NAFTA forward."

http://www.warren.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=819

Click to expand...

Bernie/Liz, Liz/Bernie would be a great ticket.

I'd almost like to see Liz on top just to watch Bernie debate their latest version of Dan Quayle....if the Republican VP doesn't choose himself for the job again.