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Westboro Baptists

Mr. Friscus

Governor
Westboro Baptist Church IS a religious body with a creed. I have never claimed that all Christians are like that, but they represent the extreme development of one strand of Christianity. They receive support from other Christian groups too, including the Russian Orthodox Christian ultrarightist Nathanael Kapner, and the largely Presbyterian Army of God.

They, too, claim to love the sinner and hate the sin ... and my point is that unless you can explain why attempting to take people's civil rights away is less serious than calling them names, you must admit that other homophobic Christians (who are not all Christians, of course) in practice are equally hateful toward gays.

I'm no Christian hater ... I just detest people like this who happen to be Christians. I likewise detest Muslim homophobes, Jewish homophobes, atheist homophobes, etc.
As a Christian, I myself have taken on fellow Christians who have this idea that homosexuality is some "special" sin. In reality, to the Christian, it's no different than adultery, premarital sex, etc.... yet, you have super small sects who are so vocal about it, and that's what gets reported in the media.

Christianity, to it's detriment in society, isn't a brash, loud, vocal religion. They're encouraged to be humble, to give without getting credit. So it's understandable that those who do no digging and only read tabloids can get a distorted view of it.
 

EatTheRich

President
One ultrarightist Russian and a minority radical Presbyterian offshoot doesn't come close to becoming a significant part of Christian believers. By your logic, all blacks want to kill white babies because Malik Zulu Shabazz and the New Black Panthers advocate it.

If I concluded that all Christians were homophobes, you could say that was my logic. As a matter of fact, I specified that many Christians were not homophobes.
 

EatTheRich

President
As a Christian, I myself have taken on fellow Christians who have this idea that homosexuality is some "special" sin. In reality, to the Christian, it's no different than adultery, premarital sex, etc.... yet, you have super small sects who are so vocal about it, and that's what gets reported in the media.

Christianity, to it's detriment in society, isn't a brash, loud, vocal religion. They're encouraged to be humble, to give without getting credit. So it's understandable that those who do no digging and only read tabloids can get a distorted view of it.
I welcome your attempt to temper some of your fellow believers' anti-gay zeal. Of course, merely comparing homosexuality to adultery (something that involves betrayal and harm) betrays an anti-gay animus.
 

Craig

Senator
Supporting Member
As a Christian, I myself have taken on fellow Christians who have this idea that homosexuality is some "special" sin. In reality, to the Christian, it's no different than adultery, premarital sex, etc.... yet, you have super small sects who are so vocal about it, and that's what gets reported in the media.

Christianity, to it's detriment in society, isn't a brash, loud, vocal religion. They're encouraged to be humble, to give without getting credit. So it's understandable that those who do no digging and only read tabloids can get a distorted view of it.
To it's detriment in society?

You desire Christianity to be brash, loud, and vocal?

Again, you place some strange idea of the sources folks get to assert your opinions. Tabloids, etc...There are many "distorted" views of Christianity, as there in no one sect, there is no agreement of what constitutes the whole of Christianity. Much of the distortion comes from folks, Westboro is a classic example, who call themselves Christian.

What if a person was raised as a Christian, but simply found they cannot believe the story...and does not feel like they can uphold the tenets of the faith? It is, after all, a personal path.
 

BobbyT

Governor
As a Christian, I myself have taken on fellow Christians who have this idea that homosexuality is some "special" sin. In reality, to the Christian, it's no different than adultery, premarital sex, etc.... yet, you have super small sects who are so vocal about it, and that's what gets reported in the media.

Christianity, to it's detriment in society, isn't a brash, loud, vocal religion. They're encouraged to be humble, to give without getting credit. So it's understandable that those who do no digging and only read tabloids can get a distorted view of it.
I've seen of no Christian groups who try to legislate keeping adulterers or those who engage in premarital sex from getting married. They do, however, try to legislate keeping homosexuals from marrying. It is these Christians who think homosexuality is a "special" sin worth of extraordinary attempts to keep them from getting married (or having a wedding cake in the event they can get married).
 

Max R.

On the road
Supporting Member
I've seen of no Christian groups who try to legislate keeping adulterers or those who engage in premarital sex from getting married. They do, however, try to legislate keeping homosexuals from marrying. It is these Christians who think homosexuality is a "special" sin worth of extraordinary attempts to keep them from getting married (or having a wedding cake in the event they can get married).
Those Christians are those who take the Bible literally. Often the same ones who think the Earth is only 6000 years old.

Not all Christians believe that way. Pinning fault on all Christianity for the actions of one sector is wrong. It's akin to blaming all Black Americans for the crimes of a few.
 

Max R.

On the road
Supporting Member
I've seen of no Christian groups who try to legislate keeping adulterers or those who engage in premarital sex from getting married. They do, however, try to legislate keeping homosexuals from marrying. It is these Christians who think homosexuality is a "special" sin worth of extraordinary attempts to keep them from getting married (or having a wedding cake in the event they can get married).
Not in 2015. After all, now we have divorced RWers like Newt and Rudy seeking higher office, but it wasn't always so.

Remember the controversy over Andrew Jackson's election? http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/715849/Rachel-Jackson

F*cking Liberals, eh? Allowing people to divorce in spite of God's will.
 

Mr. Friscus

Governor
To it's detriment in society?

You desire Christianity to be brash, loud, and vocal?
I don't desire it, but in our culture and society, the brash and loud are rewarded.

I simply wish people went beyond the surface of something they're going to attack.


Again, you place some strange idea of the sources folks get to assert your opinions. Tabloids, etc...There are many "distorted" views of Christianity, as there in no one sect, there is no agreement of what constitutes the whole of Christianity.
Actually, there is for the most part. Just look at the Nicene Creed, it's pretty much all laid out.
Much of the distortion comes from folks, Westboro is a classic example, who call themselves Christian.
Indeed.

However, let me give you an analogy.

Suppose I, a non-Democrat (and non-Republican) voter looked to find out what the Democrat party was all about, and found one of those "black power", "white people are evil" groups who were supporting Barack Obama.

Should you, or a Democrat, have to own that group, and explain it?

The truth is, you shouldn't have to, and I, as an oustider, should simply just know better.

The same goes for Westboro and all of Christianity. An outsider should really just know better.

What if a person was raised as a Christian, but simply found they cannot believe the story...and does not feel like they can uphold the tenets of the faith? It is, after all, a personal path.
They're free to leave.
 

Mr. Friscus

Governor
An interesting point. Please explain the difference, @Mr. Friscus

****edited****
Gay = unapologetically acting.
Homosexuality = the urge to act.

Most modern American liberals don't think there's a difference, sadly.

The church welcomes and loves homosexuals, just as they welcome and love all sinners. However, a "gay" person's views aren't compatible with Christianity.

In Christianity, Homosexuality IS a sin. It would be like an adulterer coming to a church and bragging about it, expecting support. Adultery IS a sin.

Christianity is love the sinner, hate the sin.
Gays would advocate for love the sinner, love the sin, and that's not possible.
 

BobbyT

Governor
Gay = unapologetically acting.
Homosexuality = the urge to act.

Most modern American liberals don't think there's a difference, sadly.

The church welcomes and loves homosexuals, just as they welcome and love all sinners. However, a "gay" person's views aren't compatible with Christianity.

In Christianity, Homosexuality IS a sin. It would be like an adulterer coming to a church and bragging about it, expecting support. Adultery IS a sin.

Christianity is love the sinner, hate the sin.
Gays would advocate for love the sinner, love the sin, and that's not possible.
Thing is, an adulterer can come into church "bragging about it" and still be allowed to marry the person he/she was fornicating with, and the church has no problem with it. No problem marrying them no problem baking their cake no problem arranging their flowers. But "gay marriage," the sin of not just being homosexual but living ones life openly as a homosexual is something some Christians (the ones on the forefront) simply cannot deal with. So those Christians who feel their beliefs are more important than other's civil rights, don't apply their beliefs to adulterers or people who indulge in premarital sex. No, they ONLY care about the "sin" of homosexuality. Because to them, the only important "sin" is that of homosexuality.

If the "Christians" who refuse to grant the right or fight to inhibit the right of marriage to homosexual couples, or refuse to bake a cake in celebration of homosexual marriage, or refuse to provide flowers for homosexual marriage, or etc., would extend the same prohibition to other "sins" such as premarital sex or adultery, those of us on the other side of the belief system coin could grant them some props for integrity and consistency. But since the sole subject of these Christian hypocrites scorn and refusal to do business with is homosexual marriage - and let us not forget that adultery is in the 10 commandments and homosexuality is not - then thinking people call foul. If Christians don't protest against an adulterer marrying, they're hypocrites for protesting against homosexual marriage.
 

Max R.

On the road
Supporting Member
I don't desire it, but in our culture and society, the brash and loud are rewarded.

I simply wish people went beyond the surface of something they're going to attack.



Actually, there is for the most part. Just look at the Nicene Creed, it's pretty much all laid out.

Indeed.

However, let me give you an analogy.

Suppose I, a non-Democrat (and non-Republican) voter looked to find out what the Democrat party was all about, and found one of those "black power", "white people are evil" groups who were supporting Barack Obama.

Should you, or a Democrat, have to own that group, and explain it?

The truth is, you shouldn't have to, and I, as an oustider, should simply just know better.


The same goes for Westboro and all of Christianity. An outsider should really just know better.



They're free to leave.
Agreed. Some people will just bash another group by using the actions of a fringe group be it Democrats, Republicans, Christians or Muslims. As you've alluded, it's not right, but they'll do it anyway. Obviously some people just want to bash others, to tar an entire group with the actions of a few and that just wrong. It says more about the basher than it does those they falsely accuse.
 

Max R.

On the road
Supporting Member
My point is that I didn't make the logical leap you accused me of making.
Your comments seemed to indicate that the Westboro [Unwelcome language removed] Baptists are a common end for Christian groups and well supported; "They receive support from other Christian groups too, including the Russian Orthodox Christian ultrarightist Nathanael Kapner, and the largely Presbyterian Army of God". When the reality is they are generally disdained by all believers.
 

Max R.

On the road
Supporting Member
Gay = unapologetically acting.
Homosexuality = the urge to act.

Most modern American liberals don't think there's a difference, sadly.

The church welcomes and loves homosexuals, just as they welcome and love all sinners. However, a "gay" person's views aren't compatible with Christianity.

In Christianity, Homosexuality IS a sin. It would be like an adulterer coming to a church and bragging about it, expecting support. Adultery IS a sin.

Christianity is love the sinner, hate the sin.
Gays would advocate for love the sinner, love the sin, and that's not possible.
Dude, the Bible speaks about adultery and eating shrimp too, but not many Christians have a problem with those sins.

Do you think homosexuality is a choice or that it's genetically wired like heterosexuality? While acting on one's base desires is obviously different than having those desires, we're talking about how people are "wired" and what two (or more) consenting adults choose to do with their lives.

Churches are free to ban people by gender, race or sexuality, but that doesn't make them good Christians.
 

EatTheRich

President
Your comments seemed to indicate that the Westboro [Unwelcome language removed] Baptists are a common end for Christian groups and well supported; "They receive support from other Christian groups too, including the Russian Orthodox Christian ultrarightist Nathanael Kapner, and the largely Presbyterian Army of God". When the reality is they are generally disdained by all believers.
Actually, you are the one who is generalizing from the behavior of a few believers (such as yourself) to all ... when in fact there is support among certain rightist Christians for the Westboro Baptists, and more importantly the Westboro Baptists' anti-gay bigotry grew up in a broader milieu of mainstream Christian anti-gay bigotry.
 

Max R.

On the road
Supporting Member
Actually, you are the one who is generalizing from the behavior of a few believers (such as yourself) to all ... when in fact there is support among certain rightist Christians for the Westboro Baptists, and more importantly the Westboro Baptists' anti-gay bigotry grew up in a broader milieu of mainstream Christian anti-gay bigotry.
There's support for ISIL, but that doesn't mean all or even a majority of Muslims are bad, vicious or murderous. ISIL is an anomaly and so are the Westboro Baptists.
 
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