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Live streams on Greek referendum

Why is it sad to see a dictatorship crumble? How very un - American of you to think so.
It's sad because the losers are going to be the Greek people, particularly the ones who paid taxes and saved money. You think the "dictators" are going to take the hit? LOL. They are already preparing to "bail-in" and seize citizens' bank accounts to cover their debt, just like the Cypriot banks did. A socialist regime collapsing is to be expected, they all do eventually. Seeing regular people who worked, paid taxes and saved get screwed as a result of the childish ignorance of their "leaders" is the sad part.
 
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Of course it does --- it does in all old countries.
It appears some US hedge funds may lose from the Greek referendum; if so, they may be expecting US taxpayers to pick up the tab.
"But then at the G8 meetings in 2011, President Obama went over along with Tim Geithner and said, our big campaign contributors are on Wall Street, and they've made huge bets that Greece can pay.

"If Greece doesn't pay, then all these gamblers and derivative players are going to lose their bets.

"You've got to sacrifice Greece and you've got to drive it into poverty, and lend the Greek government the money to pay the bond holders so that our Wall Street banks won't lose money."
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=14132
 
It appears some US hedge funds may lose from the Greek referendum; if so, they may be expecting US taxpayers to pick up the tab.
"But then at the G8 meetings in 2011, President Obama went over along with Tim Geithner and said, our big campaign contributors are on Wall Street, and they've made huge bets that Greece can pay.

"If Greece doesn't pay, then all these gamblers and derivative players are going to lose their bets.

"You've got to sacrifice Greece and you've got to drive it into poverty, and lend the Greek government the money to pay the bond holders so that our Wall Street banks won't lose money."
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=14132
But Greece has just voted NOT to take the loan --- dah dahhhh! lol. I shouldn't laugh I quite easily might end up on the streets through the troubles ahead --- ah well, I would fall laughing.
 
But Greece has just voted NOT to take the loan --- dah dahhhh! lol. I shouldn't laugh I quite easily might end up on the streets through the troubles ahead --- ah well, I would fall laughing.
Here's hoping you don't find yourself sleeping beneath any bridges over "fraudulent debts." In this TRNN interview with Jessica Desvarieux, economists Bill Black and Michael Hudson give their interpretation of how Greece has come to this point of economic uncertainty:

"BLACK: Well, the same people are getting bailed out that have been getting bailed out from the beginning of the Greek crisis, and that is foreign banks. So this money just moves in sort of an elaborate circle from the Troika, which is the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and the IMF, through the Greek government, through the Greek banks, and then they pay the foreign creditors. And they pay them just enough that they don't have to recognize a loss for accounting purposes.

"As Michael will explain, of late the big investors tend to be American hedge funds, as opposed to what used to be primarily French banks.

DESVARIEUX: Okay. Michael, I want to ask you about the role of French banks in all of this. Can you just speak to this, give us a sense of how they even got entangled in Greek debt.

"HUDSON: Well, today's problem with the debts really stem back from 2010 and 2011 when Greece obviously couldn't pay. When Greece joined the Eurozone, it falsified its debt figures. The head of its central bank worked with Goldman Sachs to make it complicated derivatives to hide it all, and that was Lucas Papademos.

"Well, in 2010 right after the PASOK party came to power in Greece, they revealed the fact that their figures had been fudged all along, and that the debt was so large that Greece couldn't pay. So the International Monetary Fund, which hadn't been making loan--almost had no customers in the world, had its European staff calculate. And the staff unanimously said, Greece can't pay these debts. These are fraudulent debts that are all, that are way beyond the ability to pay. They've got to be written down. And the board of directors agreed."

In the second part of this interview, Micheal Hudson offers some additional details about Lucas Papademos:

"And in--a few years ago Christine Lagarde provided a list to Greece of Greek tax evaders that had 50 billion Euros in Switzerland. This 50 billion Euros is enough to pay--was enough to pay all of Greece's debts. And the technocratic leader that the financial interests installed, Lucas Papademos, the very man who falsified all of the Greek payments and debt statements in 2001, didn't do anything at all with the list. He refused to move against the oligarchs."

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=14132
 

fairsheet

Senator
Really? You mean they aren't going to get money just because they're good people? That's going to shatter some progressive illusions, for sure...
The Greek economy isn't unique, even as compared with our American one. Over the last coupla centuries, there've been more than a few American states whose economies were at our tail end. The difference is in our overall cohesiveness as compared with the EU. We've been able to prop up and bailout our laggards, far more efficiently than can the EU. Many will suggest that what's going down in the EU as re Greece, was inevitable from the beginning.

Funny....this angle argues in FAVOR of a strong central guvmint!
 
Here's hoping you don't find yourself sleeping beneath any bridges over "fraudulent debts." In this TRNN interview with Jessica Desvarieux, economists Bill Black and Michael Hudson give their interpretation of how Greece has come to this point of economic uncertainty:

"BLACK: Well, the same people are getting bailed out that have been getting bailed out from the beginning of the Greek crisis, and that is foreign banks. So this money just moves in sort of an elaborate circle from the Troika, which is the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and the IMF, through the Greek government, through the Greek banks, and then they pay the foreign creditors. And they pay them just enough that they don't have to recognize a loss for accounting purposes.

"As Michael will explain, of late the big investors tend to be American hedge funds, as opposed to what used to be primarily French banks.

DESVARIEUX: Okay. Michael, I want to ask you about the role of French banks in all of this. Can you just speak to this, give us a sense of how they even got entangled in Greek debt.

"HUDSON: Well, today's problem with the debts really stem back from 2010 and 2011 when Greece obviously couldn't pay. When Greece joined the Eurozone, it falsified its debt figures. The head of its central bank worked with Goldman Sachs to make it complicated derivatives to hide it all, and that was Lucas Papademos.

"Well, in 2010 right after the PASOK party came to power in Greece, they revealed the fact that their figures had been fudged all along, and that the debt was so large that Greece couldn't pay. So the International Monetary Fund, which hadn't been making loan--almost had no customers in the world, had its European staff calculate. And the staff unanimously said, Greece can't pay these debts. These are fraudulent debts that are all, that are way beyond the ability to pay. They've got to be written down. And the board of directors agreed."

In the second part of this interview, Micheal Hudson offers some additional details about Lucas Papademos:

"And in--a few years ago Christine Lagarde provided a list to Greece of Greek tax evaders that had 50 billion Euros in Switzerland. This 50 billion Euros is enough to pay--was enough to pay all of Greece's debts. And the technocratic leader that the financial interests installed, Lucas Papademos, the very man who falsified all of the Greek payments and debt statements in 2001, didn't do anything at all with the list. He refused to move against the oligarchs."

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=14132

Good stuff Mr Encyclopedia :) I started a thread in the main board 'Now they've done it' or something like that. You should post this link up there too ---- Thank you


 
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Here's hoping you don't find yourself sleeping beneath any bridges over "fraudulent debts." In this TRNN interview with Jessica Desvarieux, economists Bill Black and Michael Hudson give their interpretation of how Greece has come to this point of economic uncertainty:

"BLACK: Well, the same people are getting bailed out that have been getting bailed out from the beginning of the Greek crisis, and that is foreign banks. So this money just moves in sort of an elaborate circle from the Troika, which is the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and the IMF, through the Greek government, through the Greek banks, and then they pay the foreign creditors. And they pay them just enough that they don't have to recognize a loss for accounting purposes.

"As Michael will explain, of late the big investors tend to be American hedge funds, as opposed to what used to be primarily French banks.

DESVARIEUX: Okay. Michael, I want to ask you about the role of French banks in all of this. Can you just speak to this, give us a sense of how they even got entangled in Greek debt.

"HUDSON: Well, today's problem with the debts really stem back from 2010 and 2011 when Greece obviously couldn't pay. When Greece joined the Eurozone, it falsified its debt figures. The head of its central bank worked with Goldman Sachs to make it complicated derivatives to hide it all, and that was Lucas Papademos.

"Well, in 2010 right after the PASOK party came to power in Greece, they revealed the fact that their figures had been fudged all along, and that the debt was so large that Greece couldn't pay. So the International Monetary Fund, which hadn't been making loan--almost had no customers in the world, had its European staff calculate. And the staff unanimously said, Greece can't pay these debts. These are fraudulent debts that are all, that are way beyond the ability to pay. They've got to be written down. And the board of directors agreed."

In the second part of this interview, Micheal Hudson offers some additional details about Lucas Papademos:

"And in--a few years ago Christine Lagarde provided a list to Greece of Greek tax evaders that had 50 billion Euros in Switzerland. This 50 billion Euros is enough to pay--was enough to pay all of Greece's debts. And the technocratic leader that the financial interests installed, Lucas Papademos, the very man who falsified all of the Greek payments and debt statements in 2001, didn't do anything at all with the list. He refused to move against the oligarchs."

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=14132

I hope you don't mind but I posted this link in the main forum --- gave you credit for the find :) --- it is too good not to be bought into the discussion.
 
These economists are all in the MMT school in KC, very honest and open economists who tell it like it is without fear. This is the shock doctrine at work folks. Want to buy Santorini? How about Mikonos? That Acropolis sure is neat, how about a billion for it?
 
Greece deal failure will hurt everybody - EC president

The failure of negotiations with Greece will affect everyone, European Council President Donald Tusk said on Wednesday. He reiterated that the deadline for Greece to present a new reform plan expired this week.

Tusk said that a deal not being reached in Greece could lead to its bankruptcy, adding that all parties would suffer if no compromise is found in the next four days. He emphasized that there should be no illusions about that.

All parties are responsible for the crisis and have to find a resolution together, Tusk said Wednesday addressing the European Parliament in Strasbourg.

Speaking at the same meeting, Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras promised to present concrete proposals within the next two days.

“I want it clearly understood: the proposals of the Greek government on financing its obligations and debt restructuring won’t come as a new burden for a European taxpayer,” he said.

“Let’s be honest the money that was given to Greece has never reached the Greek people, that was the money to save Greek and European banks,” he added.

He also said his country needed a solution that will allow it to see “the light at the end of the tunnel,” adding that Greece was committed to reforms.

"We'll continue reforms, we want an agreement with our European partners, one which will really help Greece to come out of the crisis," Tsipras said.

Tsipras reiterated that Greece was against clashes with Europe and was ready to solve the problem, but it was the eurozone that was “pouring fuel” on the current crisis.

Recently Greece became an "experimental laboratory" for implementation of the austerity policies, but the experiment has failed, Tsipras said. The referendum showed there's need to find a decision, without repeating the past mistakes that led to the crisis.




http://rt.com/business/272377-greece-crisis-euro-exit/
 

fairsheet

Senator
I'm interested in the piece by Blackman, in that he speaks of a "TDR" (debt forgiveness). I guess as I see it though, a TDR sounds a bit like a "polite" version of bankruptcy. Sure, getting out from under those onerous debts will be a huge help to the Greeks. But then, how does any of this "force" the capitalists to start lending to the Greeks again?

I'm no expert by any means so I ask, do we have modern examples of states being "TDR'd" and then able to borrow or attract investment in the near term? At the very least, it's now incumbent upon the Greeks to create and demonstrate a believable scheme for actually making their economy valid and relevant again.

Some like to conflate Greece with states like Portugal and Ireland. BUT, both of those states have already proven themselves willing and able to rise from their various doldrums of the past, and actually create vibrant economies - therefore, they represented at least plausible risks to potential investors.

Personally, I applaud the Greek "no vote", but as many have already said, it's all on their shoulders now.
 
I'm interested in the piece by Blackman, in that he speaks of a "TDR" (debt forgiveness). I guess as I see it though, a TDR sounds a bit like a "polite" version of bankruptcy. Sure, getting out from under those onerous debts will be a huge help to the Greeks. But then, how does any of this "force" the capitalists to start lending to the Greeks again?

I'm no expert by any means so I ask, do we have modern examples of states being "TDR'd" and then able to borrow or attract investment in the near term? At the very least, it's now incumbent upon the Greeks to create and demonstrate a believable scheme for actually making their economy valid and relevant again.

Some like to conflate Greece with states like Portugal and Ireland. BUT, both of those states have already proven themselves willing and able to rise from their various doldrums of the past, and actually create vibrant economies - therefore, they represented at least plausible risks to potential investors.

Personally, I applaud the Greek "no vote", but as many have already said, it's all on their shoulders now.

I think there are examples of modern states debts ( South America? ) being written off but I dunno much about if fair. It seems to me that it is not the debt its self which is the problem, because it was just make believe money anyway, so much as all the gambling going on around it and of course the example it would set?

The Greeks haven't asked for the debt to be written off though have they? I read somewhere that the best thing would be that they were given 20 years to pay it off; we took 50-ish years to pay off ours to you; that way they would be able to get out from under - but we live in a time of the immediate I suppose.

An interesting interview with a Greek MP

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=14181

I dare not read the papers this morning, it was our Budget yesterday --- this austerity shit is dreadful and getting worse and worse and worse, we could all be next.

I know you are on the Greek peoples side and if you listen to that MP and realize how the Greeks were bombarded with terror tactics from the Mass media and still voted NO
it is even more amazing that they did -But a Greek friend of my daughters is now in Athens, he said everyone is afraid, they don't know what they will wake up to tomorrow --- Banks are closed ATMs empty --- scary shit.
 
"Chapter 1, Debt before the Troika, analyses the growth of the Greek public debt since the 1980s. It concludes that the increase in debt was not due to excessive public spending, which in fact remained lower than the public spending of other Eurozone countries, but rather due to the payment of extremely high rates of interest to creditors, excessive and unjustified military spending, loss of tax revenues due to illicit capital outflows, state recapitalization of private banks, and the international imbalances created via the flaws in the design of the Monetary Union itself."

The Troika bailed out private bankers and now expect taxpayers to pay for their bad loans. The best explanation of the current Greek debt crisis claims the taxpayers in Europe and elsewhere are being used today the same way US taxpayers were used in 2008.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-17/greek-debt-committee-just-declared-all-debt-illegal-illegitimate-and-odious
 
"Chapter 1, Debt before the Troika, analyses the growth of the Greek public debt since the 1980s. It concludes that the increase in debt was not due to excessive public spending, which in fact remained lower than the public spending of other Eurozone countries, but rather due to the payment of extremely high rates of interest to creditors, excessive and unjustified military spending, loss of tax revenues due to illicit capital outflows, state recapitalization of private banks, and the international imbalances created via the flaws in the design of the Monetary Union itself."

The Troika bailed out private bankers and now expect taxpayers to pay for their bad loans. The best explanation of the current Greek debt crisis claims the taxpayers in Europe and elsewhere are being used today the same way US taxpayers were used in 2008.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-17/greek-debt-committee-just-declared-all-debt-illegal-illegitimate-and-odious
Lol are you telling me? We know ;) The problem is that people are so busy trying to survive that they don't have 'time out' from fear coupled with the mass medias brainwashing and half truths that they do not think it out and or act in unison -- the Greeks have because their backs were against the wall --- but the real Politics will be hidden and this story will disappear as quickly as they are able to sweep it under the carpet.
My real fear is of War though, the Dollar needs a War. The US is send 5,000 troops to the Russian borders and is building up a huge Arms barrier between Europe and Russia.
 
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My real fear is of War though, the Dollar needs a War. The US is send 5,000 troops to the Russian borders and is building up a huge Arms barrier between Europe and Russia.

The Greatest Purveyor of Violence in the World keeping the peace in Poland...what could go wrong?

"After the expansion of NATO to include the Baltic nations in 2004, the United States and its allies avoided the permanent stationing of equipment or troops in the east as they sought varying forms of partnership with Russia.

“'This is a very meaningful shift in policy,' said James G. Stavridis, a retired admiral and the former supreme allied commander of NATO, who is now dean of the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. 'It provides a reasonable level of reassurance to jittery allies, although nothing is as good as troops stationed full-time on the ground, of course.'”

Of course:p

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/world/europe/us-poised-to-put-heavy-weaponry-in-east-europe.html?_r=0
 

The Greatest Purveyor of Violence in the World keeping the peace in Poland...what could go wrong?

"After the expansion of NATO to include the Baltic nations in 2004, the United States and its allies avoided the permanent stationing of equipment or troops in the east as they sought varying forms of partnership with Russia.

“'This is a very meaningful shift in policy,' said James G. Stavridis, a retired admiral and the former supreme allied commander of NATO, who is now dean of the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. 'It provides a reasonable level of reassurance to jittery allies, although nothing is as good as troops stationed full-time on the ground, of course.'”

Of course:p

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/world/europe/us-poised-to-put-heavy-weaponry-in-east-europe.html?_r=0
In Europe's History the Poles were and are the most War like and troublesome of us all --- followed by the French and the English but then we were fighting each other forever ( until a French man flirted with Thatcher and did what even Napolioni never managed and built a tunnel to us ) so they sorts cancel each other out --- Germans are about 8th on the table of Europes war likes btw, low ---
 

The Greatest Purveyor of Violence in the World keeping the peace in Poland...what could go wrong?

"After the expansion of NATO to include the Baltic nations in 2004, the United States and its allies avoided the permanent stationing of equipment or troops in the east as they sought varying forms of partnership with Russia.

“'This is a very meaningful shift in policy,' said James G. Stavridis, a retired admiral and the former supreme allied commander of NATO, who is now dean of the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. 'It provides a reasonable level of reassurance to jittery allies, although nothing is as good as troops stationed full-time on the ground, of course.'”

Of course:p

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/world/europe/us-poised-to-put-heavy-weaponry-in-east-europe.html?_r=0
What jittery allies? If they weren't, which they weren't, they are now.

Look at RT ( Russia Today) to see the other side ---
 
In Europe's History the Poles were and are the most War like and troublesome of us all --- followed by the French and the English but then we were fighting each other forever ( until a French man flirted with Thatcher and did what even Napolioni never managed and built a tunnel to us ) so they sorts cancel each other out --- Germans are about 8th on the table of Europes war likes btw, low ---
Private bankers around the world, especially those in New York and London, grow progressively richer from wars that seldom touch themselves or their families. Such hereditary fortunes control politics in every state in the world. Since 1945 one state has maimed, murdered, and displaced millions of innocent lives on the opposite side of the planet from its homeland. Small wonder that state leads the world in GDP and hypocrisy. The wealth and hypocrisy is nurtured by levels of arrogance and ignorance that have to be experienced to be fully appreciated. I grew up in the aftermath of WWII, listening to many of the "adults" around me calling for the nuclear destruction of the USSR. Most of those adults had no clue about the Eastern Front, and the facts would not have changed their opinion. Ukraine might set that historical record straight?
 
Private bankers around the world, especially those in New York and London, grow progressively richer from wars that seldom touch themselves or their families. Such hereditary fortunes control politics in every state in the world. Since 1945 one state has maimed, murdered, and displaced millions of innocent lives on the opposite side of the planet from its homeland. Small wonder that state leads the world in GDP and hypocrisy. The wealth and hypocrisy is nurtured by levels of arrogance and ignorance that have to be experienced to be fully appreciated. I grew up in the aftermath of WWII, listening to many of the "adults" around me calling for the nuclear destruction of the USSR. Most of those adults had no clue about the Eastern Front, and the facts would not have changed their opinion. Ukraine might set that historical record straight?
I, on the other hand grew up with bomb sites in sight and honest people who told the truths of War --- men who and fought them and women who had suffered them. My maternal Grandmother, who was not the best of women in many ways but right in that she always said, 'Old men start Wars and send young men to die in them' --- The two WWs were Empirical Wars, both of which Germany won --- and both times after they had won they made generous offers to roll back all Armies to our respective borders and go on as if nothing had happened, both times Britain rejected them and condemned millions and in the case of WWII millions and millions and millions to endure absolute horrors, for the Banks, not for their people but for the Banks --- Bankrupting all of the Old Empires and giving the US absolute control --- Or rather the Dollar and so those who own the Dollar --- now the Dollar is being threatened both by mismanagement and the Brics --- War is their only out. Will we play ball? Will we have a choice?

I see Italy has just been given 'a warning' in Cairo ---
 
...Britain rejected them and condemned millions and in the case of WWII millions and millions and millions to endure absolute horrors, for the Banks, not for their people but for the Banks --- Bankrupting all of the Old Empires and giving the US absolute control
"The growth of financial capitalism made possible a centralization of world economic control and a use of this power for the direct benefit of financiers and the indirect injury of all other economic groups. This concentration of power, however, could be achieved only by using methods which planted the seeds which grew into monopoly capitalism."

Quigley, Carroll (2014-06-05). Tragedy and Hope: A History of the World in Our Time (Kindle Locations 7750-7753). GSG & Associates Publishers. Kindle Edition."

Quigley's quote refers to the period between the two World Wars, iow, eighty years ago financiers controlled the actions of all governments in such ways as to advance their own interests at the expense of everyone else.

Does this mean we need another Great Depression to roll back their terror?
 
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