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Republicans have declared racism is over....Have you?

Is racism over for you?

  • Yes..I no longer see black or white just Human beings

    Votes: 2 40.0%
  • No, I still need racism

    Votes: 3 60.0%

  • Total voters
    5

EatTheRich

President

EatTheRich

President
Everything real or imaginary they see racism. They need to quit the BS and fit in, not everything said is about them. damn whiners.
Tim Wise (http://www.counterpunch.org/2006/04/24/what-kind-of-card-is-race/) puts it well:

That most whites remain unconvinced of racism’s salience–with as few as six percent believing it to be a "very serious problem," according to one poll in the mid 90s (3)–suggests that racism-as-card makes up an awfully weak hand. While folks of color consistently articulate their belief that racism is a real and persistent presence in their own lives, these claims have had very little effect on white attitudes. As such, how could anyone believe that people of color would somehow pull the claim out of their hat, as if it were guaranteed to make white America sit up and take notice? If anything, it is likely to be ignored, or even attacked, and in a particularly vicious manner.

That bringing up racism (even with copious documentation) is far from an effective "card" to play in order to garner sympathy, is evidenced by the way in which few people even become aware of the studies confirming its existence.

He goes on to point out that studies show that Blacks are actually reluctant to allege that they have been victims of racism, and to show that even during the days of slavery whites claimed that Blacks who thought they were being treated unfairly were insane. He concludes:

In every era, black folks said they were the victims of racism and they were right. In every era, whites have said the problem was exaggerated, and we have been wrong.
 

Max R.

On the road
Supporting Member
"This wound could have occurred while Mr. Brown's hands were in the air" says forensic pathologist Judy Melinek.
http://www.newsmax.com/US/Michael-Brown-forensic-pathologist-context/2014/10/28/id/603721/
Nice cherry-picking of reports. Now we all know why some people only watch Fox News and some people only watch MSNBC for their information.

Here's the official DOJ report. You know, the one overseen by AG Holder and President Obama: http://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/doj_report_on_shooting_of_michael_brown_1.pdf
...Although there are several individuals who have stated that Brown held his hands up in an unambiguous sign of surrender prior to Wilson shooting him dead, their accounts do not support a prosecution of Wilson. As detailed throughout this report, some of those accounts are inaccurate because they are inconsistent with the physical and forensic evidence; some of those accounts are materially inconsistent with that witness’s own prior statements with no explanation, credible for otherwise, as to why those accounts changed over time. Certain other witnesses who originally stated Brown had his hands up in surrender recanted their original accounts, admitting that they did not witness the shooting or parts of it, despite what they initially reported either to federal or local law enforcement or to the media. Prosecutors did not rely on those accounts when making a prosecutive decision.

While credible witnesses gave varying accounts of exactly what Brown was doing with his hands as he moved toward Wilson – i.e., balling them, holding them out, or pulling up his pants up – and varying accounts of how he was moving – i.e., “charging,” moving in “slow motion,” or “running” – they all establish that Brown was moving toward Wilson when Wilson shot him. Although some witnesses state that Brown held his hands up at shoulder level with his palms facing outward for a brief moment, these same witnesses describe Brown then dropping his hands and “charging” at Wilson.....


....Of the eight gunshot wounds, two wounds, a penetrating gunshot wound to the apex of Brown’s head, and a graze or tangential wound to the base of Brown’s right thumb, have the most significant evidentiary value when determining the prosecutive merit of this matter. The former is significant because the gunshot to the head would have almost immediately incapacitated and immobilized Brown; the latter is significant because it is consistent with Brown’s hand being in close range or having near-contact with the muzzle of Wilson’s gun and corroborates Wilson’s account that Brown struggled with him to gain control of the gun in the SUV....

....Given the mobility of the arm, it is impossible to determine the position of the body relative to the shooter at the time the arm wounds were inflicted. Therefore, the autopsy results do not indicate whether Brown was facing Wilson or had his back to him. They do not indicate whether Brown sustained those two arm wounds while his hands were up, down, or by his waistband. The private forensic pathologist opined that he would expect a re-entry wound across Brown’s stomach if Brown’s hand was at his waistband at the time Wilson fired. However, as mentioned, there is no way to know the exact position of Brown’s arm relative to his waistband...

...VI. Conclusion
For the reasons set forth above, this matter lacks prosecutive merit and should be closed.
 

EatTheRich

President
It's okay to point out "documented racism", but it's wrong to declare every disagreement or difference is racist.
In the real world, Blacks are reluctant (as academic studies show) to point out when they are discriminated against on the job, by the police and courts, by potential employers, by the schools, and by the banks, and when they are victims of racist violence and harassment including sexual violence. But when they do point it out, no matter how obvious and blatant it is, they are shouted down by people who without looking at the evidence accuse them of "playing the race card." I'm not saying a few Black opportunists don't attempt to use their race to gain unfair advantage, or that people never misunderstand interactions as racist when they are not. I'm only saying that these are much smaller problems than the pervasive institutional racism in our society.
 

EatTheRich

President
Nice cherry-picking of reports. Now we all know why some people only watch Fox News and some people only watch MSNBC for their information.
What are you saying? That Newsmax Media, which I cited, is too left-wing to be considered a mainstream source?

Here's the official DOJ report. You know, the one overseen by AG Holder and President Obama
You seem to be suggesting that this report contradicts what I said, when in fact it backs me up completely:

Given the mobility of the arm, it is impossible to determine the position of the body relative to the shooter at the time the arm wounds were inflicted. Therefore, the autopsy results do not indicate whether Brown was facing Wilson or had his back to him. They do not indicate whether Brown sustained those two arm wounds while his hands were up, down, or by his waistband.
 

Max R.

On the road
Supporting Member
In the real world, Blacks are reluctant (as academic studies show) to point out when they are discriminated against on the job, by the police and courts, by potential employers, by the schools, and by the banks, and when they are victims of racist violence and harassment including sexual violence. But when they do point it out, no matter how obvious and blatant it is, they are shouted down by people who without looking at the evidence accuse them of "playing the race card." I'm not saying a few Black opportunists don't attempt to use their race to gain unfair advantage, or that people never misunderstand interactions as racist when they are not. I'm only saying that these are much smaller problems than the pervasive institutional racism in our society.
Only blacks? Does the same apply to females? White males? What did those studies for for everyone or was it solely focused on blacks as part of a particular agenda?
 

Max R.

On the road
Supporting Member
What are you saying? That Newsmax Media, which I cited, is too left-wing to be considered a mainstream source?



You seem to be suggesting that this report contradicts what I said, when in fact it backs me up completely:
cher·ry-pick verb
gerund or present participle: cherry-picking

  1. selectively choose (the most beneficial items) from what is available.
Are you denying the official DOJ report (dated March 2015) which conflicts with your single doctor opinion (dated October 2014)?
 

EatTheRich

President
Only blacks? Does the same apply to females? White males? What did those studies for for everyone or was it solely focused on blacks as part of a particular agenda?
I'm aware of 4 studies that addressed the issue: Terrell & Terrell's in Advances in African-American Psychology and Feagin et al.'s in The Agony of Education, which focused solely on Black responses to discrimination; and Fuegen's in Sex Roles and Miller's in the Journal of Social Issues, both of which found that women also tend to speak out only after ignoring persistent discrimination or harassment for long periods.

I'm not aware of anyone who has studied responses by white males to being discriminated against for being white males (as opposed to being disabled, gay, etc.); this happens so seldom that there is probably little data about it and little academic interest in it.
 

EatTheRich

President
cher·ry-pick verb
gerund or present participle: cherry-picking

  1. selectively choose (the most beneficial items) from what is available.
Are you denying the official DOJ report (dated March 2015) which conflicts with your single doctor opinion (dated October 2014)?
As I pointed out, the DOJ report confirms the official pathologist's opinion that the autopsy does not show whether the hands were up or down when Brown was shot. Again, from the DOJ report:

Given the mobility of the arm, it is impossible to determine the position of the body relative to the shooter at the time the arm wounds were inflicted. Therefore, the autopsy results do not indicate whether Brown was facing Wilson or had his back to him. They do not indicate whether Brown sustained those two arm wounds while his hands were up, down, or by his waistband.
 

Max R.

On the road
Supporting Member
......I'm not aware of anyone who has studied responses by white males to being discriminated against for being white males (as opposed to being disabled, gay, etc.); this happens so seldom that there is probably little data about it and little academic interest in it.
If there is no data on it, how can you be so certain white males aren't being discriminated against?

If people are going to be biased of appearance, there's more than just skin tone to be biased about. Height, weight, hair color or baldness and handedness are examples of genetic differences of which people have little to no control.
 

Max R.

On the road
Supporting Member
As I pointed out, the DOJ report confirms the official pathologist's opinion that the autopsy does not show whether the hands were up or down when Brown was shot. Again, from the DOJ report:

Given the mobility of the arm, it is impossible to determine the position of the body relative to the shooter at the time the arm wounds were inflicted. Therefore, the autopsy results do not indicate whether Brown was facing Wilson or had his back to him. They do not indicate whether Brown sustained those two arm wounds while his hands were up, down, or by his waistband.
Yet you are so certain they were up. Why the bias?

Since all other aspects of the autopsy and witness statements back up Wilson's version of the incident, why do you jump to the conclusion Wilson murdered Brown?
 

EatTheRich

President
If there is no data on it, how can you be so certain white males aren't being discriminated against?
It's not that there is no data on the PREVALENCE of discrimination against white males ... there is data to indicate that it is almost nonexistent ... but that there is no data (that I know of) on white males' responses to this almost unknown event.

White males dominate virtually every sector of our society, from business to the media to the arts to the political parties to the government to the unions to the dissident organizations. There are two possible explanations: 1) white males are the beneficiaries of systemic favoritism; 2) white males are superior to others. Which explanation is yours?

If people are going to be biased of appearance, there's more than just skin tone to be biased about. Height, weight, hair color or baldness and handedness are examples of genetic differences of which people have little to no control.
And at one time de jure discrimination against and persecution of left-handers was pervasive. However, there was nothing to compare with the creation of entire social institutions ... institutions that still exist ... to maintain a system of racial supremacy.
 

EatTheRich

President
Yet you are so certain they were up. Why the bias?

Since all other aspects of the autopsy and witness statements back up Wilson's version of the incident, why do you jump to the conclusion Wilson murdered Brown?
Show me where I said I was certain they were up ... rather than questioning your certainty that they were down and that the official autopsy and DOJ report supported that opinion?

I do think they were up based on the testimony of 16 of the 18 witnesses who testified on the matter (and one of those who testified the other way was clearly doing her best to exonerate Wilson). But Wilson murdered Brown whether Brown's hands were up or not. Brown was unarmed and 148 feet away from Wilson's SUV when Wilson, who could have left the scene when Brown fled and gotten an arrest warrant, initiated overwhelming lethal force.
 

Max R.

On the road
Supporting Member
It's not that there is no data on the PREVALENCE of discrimination against white males ... there is data to indicate that it is almost nonexistent ... but that there is no data (that I know of) on white males' responses to this almost unknown event.....
So which is it? Does that data exist? If so, please post it. If not, then admit you don't know and, therefore, can't legitimately state whether it exists or not.

As it is, I think there's a lot more discrimination going on that you want to admit is happening.
 

Max R.

On the road
Supporting Member
Show me where I said I was certain they were up ...
You think they were up despite the report as you reiterated in your post:
I do think they were up based on the testimony of 16 of the 18 witnesses who testified on the matter (and one of those who testified the other way was clearly doing her best to exonerate Wilson). But Wilson murdered Brown whether Brown's hands were up or not. Brown was unarmed and 148 feet away from Wilson's SUV when Wilson, who could have left the scene when Brown fled and gotten an arrest warrant, initiated overwhelming lethal force.
Again, you state with certainty things the Attorney General Holder's DOJ does not support. You are free to spin whatever fantasies you like but expect those fantasies (or lies) to be called into question as I've done.
 

EatTheRich

President
So which is it? Does that data exist? If so, please post it. If not, then admit you don't know and, therefore, can't legitimately state whether it exists or not.

As it is, I think there's a lot more discrimination going on that you want to admit is happening.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/02/civil-rights-act-anniversary-racism-charts_n_5521104.html <--- Whites are not only not discriminated against, but systematically favored, in jobs, wealth, income, education, housing, and law enforcement.

http://www.iwpr.org/initiatives/pay-equity-and-discrimination <--- Men also have more access to jobs and income.

https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims <--- Women are sexually assaulted or raped at about 10 times the rate men are.

These are examples of data showing that Blacks, Latinos, and women are discriminated against. What exactly would count as the data I'm overlooking showing that white males are discriminated against? If white males were less likely to be paid as much, for example, the data cited couldn't exist. If white males were more likely to be sexually assaulted, the data couldn't exist.
 

EatTheRich

President
You think they were up despite the report as you reiterated in your post:


Again, you state with certainty things the Attorney General Holder's DOJ does not support. You are free to spin whatever fantasies you like but expect those fantasies (or lies) to be called into question as I've done.
Saying that I "think" something is true is not an assertion of certainty. It is saying that, on the preponderance of the evidence, I find one scenario more plausible than the alternative one. You seem to think Brown's hands were down, a conclusion that is likewise unsupported by the DOJ report.
 

Max R.

On the road
Supporting Member
Saying that I "think" something is true is not an assertion of certainty. It is saying that, on the preponderance of the evidence, I find one scenario more plausible than the alternative one. You seem to think Brown's hands were down, a conclusion that is likewise unsupported by the DOJ report.
I'm going by the DOJ report. You're going by a meme driven by a political agenda which falsely claims Michael Brown was murdered in the streets attempting to peaceably surrender.

What the evidence does prove is Michael Brown was a thief and he attacked Wilson in his car.
 

Max R.

On the road
Supporting Member
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/02/civil-rights-act-anniversary-racism-charts_n_5521104.html <--- Whites are not only not discriminated against, but systematically favored, in jobs, wealth, income, education, housing, and law enforcement.

http://www.iwpr.org/initiatives/pay-equity-and-discrimination <--- Men also have more access to jobs and income.

https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims <--- Women are sexually assaulted or raped at about 10 times the rate men are.

These are examples of data showing that Blacks, Latinos, and women are discriminated against. What exactly would count as the data I'm overlooking showing that white males are discriminated against? If white males were less likely to be paid as much, for example, the data cited couldn't exist. If white males were more likely to be sexually assaulted, the data couldn't exist.
I love numbers and statistics, but like a loaded gun, you need to be careful how they are used when drawing conclusions.

Example, many of your examples use averages. If 5 black men each make $50,000/year, then average black men's income is $50,000. If 4 white men each make $50,000/year and 1 white man makes a billion dollars what is the average white men's income?

In your rush to confirm no white man has ever been discriminated against, you are failing to see the larger picture.
 
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