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Race and Gun Control

is this what you come up with on a slow news day? recycling something the black panthers did - and the NRA objected to - several decades ago.

I think if you took a poll, respondents across the polticial spectrum would agree that they don't want to see:

- armed, unformed black panthers marching in urban areas
- armed KKK members on patrol
- #blacklivesmatter activitsts carrying semiautomatic weapons
- "patriot militias" retreating to tax-defiance enclaves, and amassing arsenals for "the coming war against the government"
- homeland security with 100 million rounds of stockpiled ammo. when we already have the army, navy, marines, air force, national guard, FBI, state police, county police, and city police so well armed and trained themselves.
 

Arkady

President
You're splitting hairs because you know you can't support your argument. You know, along with all of the more erudite readers here, that "post hoc" in this reference is short for "post hoc ergo propter hoc," and it is a logical fallacy.
It is a logical fallacy to suggest that something that happens later must be the result of the thing that preceded it. But inductive reasoning relies on trying to figure out cause and effect by watching how things play out. If I see lightning then hear thunder, I can speculate the lightning caused the thunder. If there's a plausible mechanism for that, and the apparent cause-and-effect plays out often enough and consistently enough, my confidence in that can logically grow.

When it comes to analyzing historical figures, we don't get thousands of repetitions to judge from, so we can never be as confident in our belief that, say, race drove Reagan's politics as we are that lightning causes thunder. We're stuck at the "tentative" stage permanently. But certainly the real-world events look like we'd expect they would if Reagan's politics were driven in significant part by race.

It didn't have to be that way. It would be a lot harder to argue this point if, say, Reagan had always been a Republican, rather than leaving the GOP just as the white racists Democrats were leaving over civil rights. It would be almost impossible to argue it if Reagan, despite leaving the Democrats, had been one of the Republicans who was honorable enough to stand up for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965. It would be tougher to argue the point if his gun-rights stance hadn't switched opposite the switch of black political leaders. Or if he'd, say, come out in favor of affirmative action, or other controversial positions supported by black political leaders. Or if he'd repudiated the "States Rights" rallying cry that had been such a consistent prop of white supremacists since antebellum times. There are so very many ways Reagan's life could have disrupted this argument. But, with remarkable consistency, none of them played out.

Coincidence? Possibly. I don't believe so, though. I think the reason he looks so very much like a racist is either because he was one, or because he was cleverly playing the part of one, knowing what great appeal there was for such a figure among conservative white Democrats feeling alienated by a party that suddenly gave a crap about black people.

and being a bit of pedantic a-hole, too).
I'm totally tempted to change my nic to "Pedantic A-Hole".

Reagan in 1964, and in 1984 and in 1954 for all I know, believed in 10th Amendment and states rights.
And he believed those things did nothing to bar much more dramatic pro-white liberal actions during the early part of the New Deal, including truly radical reforms like Social Security or the WPA. Then, "coincidentally," liberalism started fighting for the black man, too, and suddenly the 10th amendment and states rights compelled his exit from the Democrats.
 

trapdoor

Governor
It is a logical fallacy to suggest that something that happens later must be the result of the thing that preceded it. But inductive reasoning relies on trying to figure out cause and effect by watching how things play out. If I see lightning then hear thunder, I can speculate the lightning caused the thunder. If there's a plausible mechanism for that, and the apparent cause-and-effect plays out often enough and consistently enough, my confidence in that can logically grow.
Inductive reasoning has to induce from something, or it is merely smearing a dead man, in this case, because of coincidental actions. You're ignoring the fact that Reagan, as president, signed extensions on a couple of the laws you say he opposed, including the Voting Rights Act. Some racist. What does "inductive reasoning" say about that?
I'm totally tempted to change my nic to "Pedantic A-Hole".
An expression used out of annoyance with an out-of-character obtuseness you're displaying here.

And he believed those things did nothing to bar much more dramatic pro-white liberal actions during the early part of the New Deal, including truly radical reforms like Social Security or the WPA. Then, "coincidentally," liberalism started fighting for the black man, too, and suddenly the 10th amendment and states rights compelled his exit from the Democrats.
Social Security was "pro white?" Interesting. I never heard of any segregation in the program. Nor in most other parts of the New Deal (I'm not certain if the CCC was integrated or not. If you lived in the Tennessee Valley, you lost your farm whether you were white or black). Coincidentally, count the number of federal agencies created between 1948, and the year Reagan left the party. You'll see plenty of reason for someone who didn't believe in ever-expanding government to step away.
 

Arkady

President
Inductive reasoning has to induce from something
Yes, and in this case it deduce from a mountain of evidence of the man's real-world actions:

(1) he was fine with radical liberalism until the Democrats turned to black civil rights
(2) he left the Democrats just as other prominent white racists were doing so over black civil rights issues
(3) he publicly campaigned against black civil rights and black voting rights
(4) he pushed for gun control when it was seen as a way to keep black people in line, then against gun control when the opposite view prevailed
(5) he consistently came out against policies like affirmative action favored by black leadership
(6) he indulged in race-baiting appeals such as the "black bucks" smear.
(7) although he could blabber all day long about the problems with big government, he happily presided over massive government expansion.... he just fought to prevent it taking the form of social programs.

I think it's sufficient basis to conclude he was either driven by race, or at least driven to capture the votes that were available by playing to the white racist mindset.

An expression used out of annoyance with an out-of-character obtuseness you're displaying here.
It's all good.

Social Security was "pro white?"
Not exclusively. But it wasn't built around helping blacks, like the programs Reagan very consistently opposed. It suggests that his issue with such programs wasn't a consistent issue with government overreach, but rather an issue with government looking out for black people.
 

trapdoor

Governor
]Yes, and in this case it deduce from a mountain of evidence of the man's real-world actions:

(1) he was fine with radical liberalism until the Democrats turned to black civil rights
(2) he left the Democrats just as other prominent white racists were doing so over black civil rights issues
(3) he publicly campaigned against black civil rights and black voting rights
(4) he pushed for gun control when it was seen as a way to keep black people in line, then against gun control when the opposite view prevailed
(5) he consistently came out against policies like affirmative action favored by black leadership
(6) he indulged in race-baiting appeals such as the "black bucks" smear.
(7) although he could blabber all day long about the problems with big government, he happily presided over massive government expansion.... he just fought to prevent it taking the form of social programs.
He signed extensions to those programs. He pushed for gun control after the Black Panthers took over a government building, while armed. He had to be seen to be doing SOMETHING. The rest of your statements have no bearing on the topic at hand.

I think it's sufficient basis to conclude he was either driven by race, or at least driven to capture the votes that were available by playing to the white racist mindset.
Whatever you think, you've yet to provide a single racist statement by the man (no, the statement that Jefferson Davis was a hero of his is not such a statement -- Jefferson Davis was president of the CSA for four years, but was a military hero and politician for 40 years preceding that four years -- he has a record that can be admired without racism).


Not exclusively. But it wasn't built around helping blacks, like the programs Reagan very consistently opposed. It suggests that his issue with such programs wasn't a consistent issue with government overreach, but rather an issue with government looking out for black people.
The New Deal was about helping "the poor." You can go through every statement made by Rex Tugwell and FDR and find no reference to race. Reagan opposed the constant expansion (outside the DoD), as I said. If he were opposed EXCLUSIVELY to the race based programs, you'd have a point, but he wasn't opposed to those exclusively.[/QUOTE]
 
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Arkady

President
He signed extensions to those programs. He pushed for gun control after the Black Panthers took over a government building, while armed. He had to be seen to be doing SOMETHING.
He did do something. They were arrested. What he chose to do beyond that was to remove a form of gun rights for everyone in the state. He didn't have to do that. But when gun rights are seen as a power equalizer for the black man, they tend to be perceived very differently by people like Ronald Reagan and his political base than when gun rights are seen as a way to keep the black man in his place.

Also, no Jefferson Davis's military record doesn't excuse calling him a hero. If it helps, picture someone angling for the votes of neo-nazis by calling Hitler a hero of his, and then people trying to rehabilitate that by pointing out how, if you put Hitler's evil leadership aside, he was a brave soldier during WWI, who was gased for his country. That said, I'm not certain Reagan actually made the JD claim -- I think we dug into it, and although the attribution is very old, there isn't any actual recording.
 

Sunset Rose

Mayor
Supporting Member
Yet they were political -- they supported the gun control measure in California. Then, when the perceived threat of the Black Panthers had faded but the threat of black crime was growing, they switched to being political against gun control.



He was a loyal Democrat up until the Democrats aligned with black civil rights. He opposed those landmark civil rights acts and joined several other prominent anti-civil-rights Democrats in leaving for the GOP. He then later ran for president on a campaign built around race-baiting invocations of "black bucks" eating t-bones steaks, etc. To be fair, he may not have been a racist. He may just have been a really ambitious guy who saw the way that racists would reward politicians they THOUGHT were fellow racists, so he did a pitch-perfect impression of one. He was an actor, after all. It's impossible to know which is true.
Reagan pandered to the racists the same way that Trump did. I guess that is a winning formula.
 

Arkady

President
Reagan pandered to the racists the same way that Trump did. I guess that is a winning formula.
Sometimes. I've got this theory that there are basically two types of election cycles in the US. One is when there are serious compelling issues demanding attention -- for example, an economic meltdown. In those, racism, sexism, and other identity-politics issues are largely beside the point, since that's not where the battle's being fought. But then there are the cycles when things are going pretty well, and there aren't really compelling substantive issues driving campaign coverage -- years when unemployment is under 5%, it's been at least five or six years since the last serious crisis, etc. In those years, identity politics dominates the campaign. And when that happens, it's a real advantage to the party that represents the biggest identity groups. In years like '68, 2000, and 2016, we get into what amounts to a culture war vote, and those years tend to be good for the party that's positioned itself well with white racists.
 
C

Capitalist

Guest
He did do something. They were arrested. What he chose to do beyond that was to remove a form of gun rights for everyone in the state. He didn't have to do that. But when gun rights are seen as a power equalizer for the black man, they tend to be perceived very differently by people like Ronald Reagan and his political base than when gun rights are seen as a way to keep the black man in his place.

Also, no Jefferson Davis's military record doesn't excuse calling him a hero. If it helps, picture someone angling for the votes of neo-nazis by calling Hitler a hero of his, and then people trying to rehabilitate that by pointing out how, if you put Hitler's evil leadership aside, he was a brave soldier during WWI, who was gased for his country. That said, I'm not certain Reagan actually made the JD claim -- I think we dug into it, and although the attribution is very old, there isn't any actual recording.
Is this one of your "pro-gun" posts you reference from time to time that makes you think you're even keeled?

It's not working.
 
C

Capitalist

Guest
It is not. It is because this particular neighborhood watch group was black that it was treated as a big enough threat to justify removing open carry rights for an entire state.
Or so goes your galloping juggernaut of assumptions.

Smart people recognize their assumptions and relegate them as inferior to results gained through critical thinking.

You need to try harder.
 

Arkady

President
Is this one of your "pro-gun" posts you reference from time to time that makes you think you're even keeled?

It's not working.
When have I referenced "pro-gun" posts? I think you've got me confused with someone else. I'm neither pro nor anti gun. The whole notion doesn't really even make sense to me. It would be like claiming to be pro- or anti-car. Guns are just machines. I can favor certain regulations and oppose certain others, with regards to a given machine, without that making me either for or against the machine in general.
 

trapdoor

Governor
He did do something. They were arrested. What he chose to do beyond that was to remove a form of gun rights for everyone in the state. He didn't have to do that. But when gun rights are seen as a power equalizer for the black man, they tend to be perceived very differently by people like Ronald Reagan and his political base than when gun rights are seen as a way to keep the black man in his place.
Just like any other politician, he had to address more than just the immediate issue -- we aren't talking riots in the Jim Crow south, but in California. He had to do something politically palatable for the era -- and in that place and time that was gun control. I don't like it, personally, and wish he'd been able to hew to a more consistent line on the topic, but it was a policy put in place in response to the era, more than to any given race, and the same result would have happened if the people taking over the state building had been rioting whites.
 

Arkady

President
Just like any other politician, he had to address more than just the immediate issue -- we aren't talking riots in the Jim Crow south, but in California. He had to do something politically palatable for the era
For white racists, the idea of armed black men walking the streets wasn't politically palatable. And either Reagan shared that racist response, or he at least very much wanted to profit from it.

and wish he'd been able to hew to a more consistent line on the topic
Whether he was consistent or not depends on how you frame the issue. If the issue was one of legal principle, I'll grant he was wildly inconsistent. If, instead, the issue was whether the law should be tailored for purposes of maintaining white supremacy, he was quite consistent. Throughout his career, he consistently believed we should have exactly the level of gun control optimal for keeping the dark folks in line -- no more, no less.

If it had been armed rioting whites taking over a government building, he never would have taken the position -- any more than a bunch of Republicans suddenly came out against open carry when the Oregon militia members rioted and started their long armed occupation of the federal wildlife refuge building. Allowing open carry is "politically palatable" for white racists when the gun-toting rioters seizing government buildings are white people.
 
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trapdoor

Governor
For white racists, the idea of armed black men walking the streets wasn't politically palatable. And either Reagan shared that racist response, or he at least very much wanted to profit from it.
You are saying it would have been politically palatable if whites had done the same thing -- I disagree.
 
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