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Any deficit hawks left?

I recently went on a bit of a disaster-preparedness kick. Ever since my parents lost power in an ice storm for three weeks, many years back, I've been aware of the value of being able to be self-sufficient for a stretch -- because my parents heated with a wood-stove they were able to stay comfortably at home while many neighbors wound up in shelters. So, I've gradually built out a more robust system for temporary self-sufficiency for my own family, over time. As part of that, I've been listening to some prepper podcasts and Youtube series for tips, and it's really fascinating stuff. Although they sometimes have valuable information, it tends to come straight out of a deranged form of right-wing political paranoia -- they spent the Obama years convinced martial law, economic collapse, or social meltdown was looming, even as we went through eight years that were damned quiet even by US standards (no recessions starting, declining crime rates, no major terrorist attacks or new wars, etc.)

Anyway, one of the Preppers did a new post-Trump podcast where he reshuffled his warnings. He used to be convinced economic collapse was imminent, and rated it above issues like terrorist attacks, rioting, pandemic, etc., for the kinds of "grid down" event he was worried about. Now he's pushed economic collapse down the list, convinced that with Trump as president, there's not as big a risk of that. His prior worry about economic collapse was all based on our "sky high" debt levels, and he thinks Trump has that under control. This strikes me as bizarre. Whatever you think of Trump's economic policies overall, shouldn't it be obvious that debt is likely to rise quickly in coming years?

Since Trump has come out with several very different plans for tax cuts (depending on whether he was competing with the Republicans or with Clinton, he believed in different things). But, all of his plans involve massive tax cutting of one form or another. The most aggressive of the plans would cost $9.5 trillion in extra debt over the next decade:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/analysis-donald-trumps-tax-plan/full

Other analysis puts different iterations of his plans at a ten-year cost of between $2.6 trillion and $5.9 trillion:

https://taxfoundation.org/details-analysis-donald-trump-tax-plan-2016/
http://money.cnn.com/2016/09/19/news/economy/trump-tax-plan-cost/

Those lower numbers are from the right-wing Tax Foundation, which has a propagandistic tendency to underestimate the revenue cost of tax cuts. Yet, even they are projecting an absolute revenue meltdown if Trump gets his way. Even the most optimistic of projections of the most modest of his plans would involve us plunging into debt more than 25% faster than the present pace. The least optimistic projection of the most aggressive of his plans would almost double the rate of debt increase.

Of course, you might think there's no way Trump will get everything he wants (despite having Republicans in control of both houses of Congress), but even half that would be a budget nightmare, especially paired with increases in spending in our biggest area of discretionary spending (the military), along with his hyper-expensive border wall. GW Bush tried something similar and managed to turn a record budget surplus into a record budget deficit in just three years.

And that new debt of $2.6 trillion to $9.5 trillion, over the next decade, would just be the new debt attributable to the tax cuts -- it wouldn't count the ongoing debt run up from deficits projected even before those cuts, or any debt associated with higher federal spending levels, if Trump gets his promised military spending boost, etc. So, that Prepper's confidence that the debt issue is no longer as scary as he imagined in the Obama years runs directly at odds with realistic budget projections.

If you were laid back about debt a few years ago, maybe the new, darker path still isn't dark enough to worry you. But if you were in a panic before, things should seem even more troubling now. Yet I can't remember the last time I heard one of our conservatives on this forum fret about debt and deficits, the way they regularly did in the Obama years. That suggests to me that, for them, those weren't really driving issues. Their drive to criticize Obama came first, and then they rummaged around looking for something to use as the nominal topic of attacks on him, with debt being a convenient one. Now that they feel their team is in charge, debt doesn't bother them any more than it did when the policies of Reagan and Bush were super-charging it.

Am I right? Like the Trump-loving Prepper, have you found your fear of debt fading even as the likely rate of debt increase has grown? Or are you even more concerned than in the past, and just not bothering to mention it any more?
You're so new to the idea of actually taking care of yourself. Adorable.
 

EatTheRich

President
well yes - that's the 64 billion dollar question. will the coming Chinese economic problems result in "revolution" which sweeps out the self serving, one party communist rule? or will it result in "worse than tienamin square" crackdown?
There were already 2700 recorded strikes and protests in China in 2015 alone. Workers in some factories are allowed to vote for their own union representatives, a right they have won in struggles since 2009. The Hong Kong protests recently pushed back efforts to impose the semi-fascist regime of the "Communist Party" on Hong Kong. The Tiananmen protesters, although of course they were violently suppressed, actually forced a substantial slowdown in the rate of privatizations pursued by the state over protesters' objections. The struggle there is far from over, and a crash could ignite not just a Chinese, but a world, revolution.
 

EatTheRich

President
Yes, as you rightly point out, they've painted themselves into a whole series of corners. I just think the kind of person who was willing to vote for Trump has an almost limitless capacity for self-delusion. That gives the Republicans the ability to tromp right across that wet paint and insist the footprints they leave aren't theirs.

For example, take Obamacare. When Obama left, it was a moderate success -- a lot more people were covered, public health outcomes were improving, and healthcare costs were rising more slowly than usual. But now all the Republicans have to do is kick the mandate out, triggering the death spiral of prices when people are free to game coverage, and then they can claim the meltdown they caused had nothing to do with them, but was instead a fundamental problem with the Obama plan, and so they're "forced" to kill it. Then the marching morons dutifully blame the loss of coverage on Obama instead of the Republicans who engineered it.

Sure, you only need to be able to add two plus two and get four to realize what really happened. But the whole Trump campaign was built around people who add two plus two and get whatever Fox News tells them to get. If Rupert Murdoch tells them 2+2=cucumber, they'll swear to it.
Looks to me as if blind faith in Trump has replaced blind faith in Fox News. Fox is definitely part of the "media elite" with whom media baby Trump is waging a family feud.
 
I recently went on a bit of a disaster-preparedness kick. Ever since my parents lost power in an ice storm for three weeks, many years back, I've been aware of the value of being able to be self-sufficient for a stretch -- because my parents heated with a wood-stove they were able to stay comfortably at home while many neighbors wound up in shelters. So, I've gradually built out a more robust system for temporary self-sufficiency for my own family, over time. As part of that, I've been listening to some prepper podcasts and Youtube series for tips, and it's really fascinating stuff. Although they sometimes have valuable information, it tends to come straight out of a deranged form of right-wing political paranoia -- they spent the Obama years convinced martial law, economic collapse, or social meltdown was looming, even as we went through eight years that were damned quiet even by US standards (no recessions starting, declining crime rates, no major terrorist attacks or new wars, etc.)

Anyway, one of the Preppers did a new post-Trump podcast where he reshuffled his warnings. He used to be convinced economic collapse was imminent, and rated it above issues like terrorist attacks, rioting, pandemic, etc., for the kinds of "grid down" event he was worried about. Now he's pushed economic collapse down the list, convinced that with Trump as president, there's not as big a risk of that. His prior worry about economic collapse was all based on our "sky high" debt levels, and he thinks Trump has that under control. This strikes me as bizarre. Whatever you think of Trump's economic policies overall, shouldn't it be obvious that debt is likely to rise quickly in coming years?

Since Trump has come out with several very different plans for tax cuts (depending on whether he was competing with the Republicans or with Clinton, he believed in different things). But, all of his plans involve massive tax cutting of one form or another. The most aggressive of the plans would cost $9.5 trillion in extra debt over the next decade:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/analysis-donald-trumps-tax-plan/full

Other analysis puts different iterations of his plans at a ten-year cost of between $2.6 trillion and $5.9 trillion:

https://taxfoundation.org/details-analysis-donald-trump-tax-plan-2016/
http://money.cnn.com/2016/09/19/news/economy/trump-tax-plan-cost/

Those lower numbers are from the right-wing Tax Foundation, which has a propagandistic tendency to underestimate the revenue cost of tax cuts. Yet, even they are projecting an absolute revenue meltdown if Trump gets his way. Even the most optimistic of projections of the most modest of his plans would involve us plunging into debt more than 25% faster than the present pace. The least optimistic projection of the most aggressive of his plans would almost double the rate of debt increase.

Of course, you might think there's no way Trump will get everything he wants (despite having Republicans in control of both houses of Congress), but even half that would be a budget nightmare, especially paired with increases in spending in our biggest area of discretionary spending (the military), along with his hyper-expensive border wall. GW Bush tried something similar and managed to turn a record budget surplus into a record budget deficit in just three years.

And that new debt of $2.6 trillion to $9.5 trillion, over the next decade, would just be the new debt attributable to the tax cuts -- it wouldn't count the ongoing debt run up from deficits projected even before those cuts, or any debt associated with higher federal spending levels, if Trump gets his promised military spending boost, etc. So, that Prepper's confidence that the debt issue is no longer as scary as he imagined in the Obama years runs directly at odds with realistic budget projections.

If you were laid back about debt a few years ago, maybe the new, darker path still isn't dark enough to worry you. But if you were in a panic before, things should seem even more troubling now. Yet I can't remember the last time I heard one of our conservatives on this forum fret about debt and deficits, the way they regularly did in the Obama years. That suggests to me that, for them, those weren't really driving issues. Their drive to criticize Obama came first, and then they rummaged around looking for something to use as the nominal topic of attacks on him, with debt being a convenient one. Now that they feel their team is in charge, debt doesn't bother them any more than it did when the policies of Reagan and Bush were super-charging it.

Am I right? Like the Trump-loving Prepper, have you found your fear of debt fading even as the likely rate of debt increase has grown? Or are you even more concerned than in the past, and just not bothering to mention it any more?
Maybe you want to prep for more than a brief period of time. That is what your "paranoia" is arguing for.




P.S. Glad to hear you prep at all. If you get an adult pellet gun (past post) look at Hatsan (from Turkey) that doesn't use a mechanical spring which are louder. It's heavy but makes for steadier aim and accuracy. Drives pellets hard. Use eye protection. I got the .177. Using 10g pellets.

Hatsan 95 Air Rifle Combo, Vortex Gas Spring air rifle
https://www.amazon.com/Hatsan-Rifle-Combo-Vortex-Spring/dp/B00K6PPLYE/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1487930373&sr=1-2-fkmr0&keywords=hatsan+95+quiet
 
Maybe you want to prep for more than a brief period of time. That is what your "paranoia" is arguing for.




P.S. Glad to hear you prep at all. If you get an adult pellet gun (past post) look at Hatsan (from Turkey) that doesn't use a mechanical spring which are louder. It's heavy but makes for steadier aim and accuracy. Drives pellets hard. Use eye protection. I got the .177. Using 10g pellets.

Hatsan 95 Air Rifle Combo, Vortex Gas Spring air rifle
https://www.amazon.com/Hatsan-Rifle-Combo-Vortex-Spring/dp/B00K6PPLYE/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1487930373&sr=1-2-fkmr0&keywords=hatsan+95+quiet
Is there a significant difference between a pellet rifle as above and a .22 using subsonic ammunition or .22 shorts? I've always used a subsonic .22 load in a bolt action rifle for hunting small game. It's very quiet.
 

Arkady

President
Just curious, did you vote for Clinton? Full disclosure: I voted for Alyson Kennedy.
No. I'm in Massachusetts. With pre-election polling showing about a 30-point lead for Clinton, I knew that even the biggest polling miss in history wouldn't have been enough to tilt things for Trump in this state, so I had the option of a protest vote, and wrote-in Bernie Sanders. Sure enough, Clinton won by 27.2 points. But, there's probably only about fifteen places where I wouldn't have voted for Clinton (DC, HI, CA, MD, MA, NY, IL, VT, WV, WY, OK, ND, KY, AL, SD.) Once the gap was much narrower than 30 points, I just wouldn't have felt confident enough in the outcome for a protest vote. Throwing away the chance to do a part to keep Trump from being president isn't something I'd do lightly.
 

Arkady

President
Maybe you want to prep for more than a brief period of time. That is what your "paranoia" is arguing for.




P.S. Glad to hear you prep at all. If you get an adult pellet gun (past post) look at Hatsan (from Turkey) that doesn't use a mechanical spring which are louder. It's heavy but makes for steadier aim and accuracy. Drives pellets hard. Use eye protection. I got the .177. Using 10g pellets.

Hatsan 95 Air Rifle Combo, Vortex Gas Spring air rifle
https://www.amazon.com/Hatsan-Rifle-Combo-Vortex-Spring/dp/B00K6PPLYE/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1487930373&sr=1-2-fkmr0&keywords=hatsan+95+quiet
Thanks. I'll look into that. I ended up getting a Savage 24, in addition to my revolver. It's a 30-30 over a 12-gauge, which gives me a lot of options, but I like the idea of a pellet gun to allow cheap shooting practice.

It's more of a novelty, but I also saw a great collapsible survival bow:

https://www.amazon.com/Survival-Archery-Systems-SAS-Tactical/dp/B01JZBB0PI

I probably won't bother, but if you were in a really long-term survival situation, there's be a real advantage to a quiet weapon where you could make your own ammunition in unlimited supply. You could be living off birds and squirrels and such just a few miles from civilization and nobody would have a clue you were even out there. It's the ultimate bug-out weapon.
 

Arkady

President
No, I got it right.
Nope. You're just suffering from your usual poor reading comprehension skills. I made it clear that I've been gradually building out a robust system for temporary self-sufficiency since "many years back." My latest round of improving it has just been recently, but prior rounds go back well into my past. For example, I got my generator back in 2010 and had it professionally wired into my house in 2012. I've kept at least 10 gallons of gasoline and 5 of water on hand since 2000 (I've now upped that to 40 and 35, respectively). I've kept emergency batteries with compressors for at least ten years. I first put together a "bug-out bag" in 2013. I've kept a pretty elaborate first-aid set-up since 2001, and have taken CPR and first aid courses. I've also had a pretty loaded out workshop since I bought my current house, well over a decade ago.
 
Is there a significant difference between a pellet rifle as above and a .22 using subsonic ammunition or .22 shorts? I've always used a subsonic .22 load in a bolt action rifle for hunting small game. It's very quiet.
I'm not an expert, I just play one on the internet. :0)

In a pellet gun (not using compressed air) all the noise comes from the mechanical release of the piston. Yeah, I've found sub-sonic .22's quiet. Quieter in a rifle than a pistol but nothing is quieter than compressed air pellet rifles aka Airguns. Interesting links below but I'd not go this route.



I'm sticking with pellet guns. Very cheap ammo and quiet. And sub-sonic .22's
 
Thanks. I'll look into that. I ended up
getting a Savage 24, in addition to my revolver. It's a 30-30 over a 12-gauge, which gives me a lot of options, but I like the idea of a pellet gun to allow cheap shooting practice.

It's more of a novelty, but I also saw a great collapsible survival bow:

https://www.amazon.com/Survival-Archery-Systems-SAS-Tactical/dp/B01JZBB0PI

I probably won't bother, but if you were in a really long-term survival situation, there's be a real advantage to a quiet weapon where you could make your own ammunition in unlimited supply. You could be living off birds and squirrels and such just a few miles from civilization and nobody would have a clue you were even out there. It's the ultimate bug-out weapon.
There is nothing cheaper than pellets. $23 for 1250 pellets.

You won't get much out of small birds and squirrels are not very numerous.

The bow is nice buy but you'll lose arrows. You want to go primitive go with an atlatl harder to lose the dart/speer.

 
Last edited:

Arkady

President
There is nothing cheaper than pellets. $23 for 1250 pellets.

You won't get much out of small birds and squirrels are not very numerous.
Close to my home, squirrels are numerous -- mostly gray squirrels, though we have reds, too. Walking around the neighborhood, you hear them chittering away on the branches every few feet. We've also got a bunch of rabbits, but nowhere near as many as squirrels, presumably because the coyotes, foxes, and fishers are better at catching the rabbits.

I find it interesting just how much wildlife I get at my home, since I'm not all that far from Boston. There's so much tree cover and water that the land can host a pretty large animal population.

Just in terms of what has visited my backyard in recent years, I've seen red and gray squirrels, chipmunks, hawks, deer, coyote, fox, wild turkey, fisher, skunks, crows, all manner of songbirds, and rabbits. Walking within a couple miles of my home I've also spotted porcupines, beaver, groundhogs, ducks, Canada geese, owls, turtles, quail, grouse, swans, eagles, falcons, buzzards, raccoon, opossum, muskrat, river otter, heron, loon, and pheasant. People also get their birdfeeders knocked down by black bears on a regular basis. There are even occasional spottings of moose, though I've never personally spotted any (in this area).

Check out the area I'm talking about on a satellite image:

upload_2017-2-24_14-0-35.png
The center of that map is just 16 miles from the urban center of downtown Boston, yet it's mostly woodlands and watersheds.
 
Just in terms of what has visited my backyard in recent years, I've seen red and gray squirrels, chipmunks, hawks, deer, coyote, fox, wild turkey, fisher, skunks, crows, all manner of songbirds, and rabbits. Walking within a couple miles of my home I've also spotted porcupines, beaver, groundhogs, ducks, Canada geese, owls, turtles, quail, grouse, swans, eagles, falcons, buzzards, raccoon, opossum, muskrat, river otter, heron, loon, and pheasant. People also get their birdfeeders knocked down by black bears on a regular basis. There are even occasional spottings of moose, though I've never personally spotted any (in this area).
Wow, you've got everything (except any people who aren't white).
 
Close to my home, squirrels are numerous -- mostly gray squirrels, though we have reds, too. Walking around the neighborhood, you hear them chittering away on the branches every few feet. We've also got a bunch of rabbits, but nowhere near as many as squirrels, presumably because the coyotes, foxes, and fishers are better at catching the rabbits.

I find it interesting just how much wildlife I get at my home, since I'm not all that far from Boston. There's so much tree cover and water that the land can host a pretty large animal population.

Just in terms of what has visited my backyard in recent years, I've seen red and gray squirrels, chipmunks, hawks, deer, coyote, fox, wild turkey, fisher, skunks, crows, all manner of songbirds, and rabbits. Walking within a couple miles of my home I've also spotted porcupines, beaver, groundhogs, ducks, Canada geese, owls, turtles, quail, grouse, swans, eagles, falcons, buzzards, raccoon, opossum, muskrat, river otter, heron, loon, and pheasant. People also get their birdfeeders knocked down by black bears on a regular basis. There are even occasional spottings of moose, though I've never personally spotted any (in this area).

Check out the area I'm talking about on a satellite image:

View attachment 35398
The center of that map is just 16 miles from the urban center of downtown Boston, yet it's mostly woodlands and watersheds.
Seems nice enough the area. My grandfather lived in the Upper Peninsula during the depression. An in and out (one shot and only one shot) of season hunter. Game got sparse.

I quote someone else here:

There are about five or six squirrels per acre in urban areas (about two per acre in rural areas), so with four family members to feed and a 100% success rate in killing every squirrel you see, you’re clearing out around three acres every four days in the city. And you’re not the only one trying to eat them! How long is the squirrel population really going to last in your town?
http://www.alloutdoor.com/2015/02/25/planning-eat-squirrel-tshtf-again/


Store more food Arkady. :0)
 
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