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78% say school teachers aren’t paid enough

Discussion in 'Economics, Business, and Taxes' started by JuliefromOhio, Apr 23, 2018.

  1. JuliefromOhio

    JuliefromOhio Senator Supporting Member

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    AP Poll: 78 Percent Say Public School Teachers Aren’t Paid Enough

    Overall, 78 percent of Americans said that’s not enough. Just 15 percent think teachers are paid the right amount, while 6 percent think they’re paid too much. In a 2010 AP-Stanford poll, 57 percent of Americans said they thought teachers are paid too little.

    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/ap-poll-most-americans-say-public-school-teachers-not-paid-enough

    This is the kind of thing that reminds me of the basic goodness and decency of Americans.
     
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  2. JuliefromOhio

    JuliefromOhio Senator Supporting Member

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    [​IMG]
    That's a mighty weapon those Republicans are giving to Dems.
     
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  3. Dawg

    Dawg President Supporting Member

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    Polls
    said Shrill would win also
     
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  4. Fast Eddy

    Fast Eddy Mayor

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    The teachers constantly whine about money despite being overpaid for what they are delivering. I think teachers need to upgrade their skills before they demand more and tenure must end.
     
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  5. Dawg

    Dawg President Supporting Member

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    while those on Welfare do


    [​IMG]
     
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  6. EatTheRich

    EatTheRich President

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    The end of tenure means crippling the unions which means teachers getting paid less. Higher salaries means more competition for teaching jobs which means teachers bring better skills to the table. Lower salaries and removing tenure means a race to the bottom as only those with no other prospects go into teaching.
     
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  7. reason10

    reason10 Mayor

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    Here's the problem: These people are full of shit.

    Teacher salaries are not determined in Washington or even in state capitals. They are determined at the county level, which means people voting in county elections decide teacher salaries.

    These people who say public school teachers aren't paid enough are *edited* liars. They bitch and moan every time some little hiccup occurs and causes their property insurance to go up, (which is precisely where 90 percent of teacher pay comes from.)

    One of the more inflammatory statements I've made is the fact that McDonalds treats its dumbass burger flippers better than school districts treat teachers, because even the dumbest fucks get a raise after 90 days. There are teachers who haven't gotten raises for years.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 13, 2019
  8. reason10

    reason10 Mayor

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    The end of tenure means crippling the unions which means teachers getting paid less.

    One has nothing to do with the other. Tenure (which is a bad idea all around) can occur in total free market school systems. The goddam COLLEGES that price gouge the public certainly have no problem with tenure. Has NOTHING to do with unions.

    Higher salaries means more competition for teaching jobs which means teachers bring better skills to the table.

    See, THAT'S a slap in the face to teachers on the job right now. You're in effect saying teachers now do not deserve more money and that raising salaries would attract better teachers. Why don't you attend a teacher's union meeting and vomit that insult in front of them and see how far it gets you.

    Unions as money negotiating tools are useless in Florida because in this state it is illegal for a government employee to go on strike. That being said, there are several teacher's unions here and they offer competing benefits, in insurance, inservice training and legal help for some teachers who may have been improperly disciplined. So they aren't totally useless.

    There is a county that has automatic teacher salary increases each year for new hires. (Not ironically, this county has some very high end real estate). I believe that is probably the most logical way because there is NO way to train a teacher except in a classroom on the job. Colleges don't do jack [Unwelcome language removed] shit except to give a person academic credentials. Each year on the job, the teacher gets more experience and is more valuable.

    I'm not saying all teachers are incompetent and not worth more money. (Yes, some are. They are human beings and they aren't perfect.) Most teachers I know (and I work as a sub in two counties) do not take time off. They are on the job 24/7. Most of them. And ALL of them in one county have had to put up with years of increasing work loads (a lot of which is handed down from that [Unwelcome language removed] useless Department of Education), but without corresponding increases in pay.

    No private sector business could get away with this.
     
  9. reason10

    reason10 Mayor

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    God is going to kill me for saying this, but I have to be truthful and factual. I work in the system as a substitute teacher, so I see the good and bad of this environment.

    1. NOTHING prepares a person to teach public school. College gives academic credentials, and then the person has to go through certification and spend even more money in idiotic courses. And NONE of that prepares the teacher for that first day on the job. A teacher a year into the job is more valuable than a newbie because of the experience. Unless the teacher is an absolute moron (and yes, I've run into a few, although not as many as you might think), each new year is a new set of skills. The teacher becomes more valuable with experience. The experience IS the upgrading of skills.

    2. Teacher salaries (at least in the state of Florida) are determined at the county level, mostly based on property taxes. Local county commissioners and school boards are the ones making the call on teacher pay. And one teacher once shared with me that it is illegal to levy a local or a state tax for the sole purpose of increasing teacher pay. (Yeah, I didn't understand that, either.)

    3. Tenure is a bad idea at the college level, where the REAL price gouging is taking place. I don't see it that much in the El-Hi system.

    4. In Florida, teacher's unions are almost completely useless, as far as determining teacher pay because government employees striking is illegal. Unions aren't totally useless, since they have the power of numbers to get favorable insurance rates. Also, they get legal help if a teacher is unfairly accused of misconduct.
     
  10. reason10

    reason10 Mayor

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    Colorado is a fucked up state. And they should have their [Unwelcome language removed] asses kicked for not sharing some of that brand new marijuana tax revenue with the teachers. Don't blame political parties for that. Blame the school boards who determine the salary levels.

    I went to the Denver post to get the facts, because your little meme has so little. The bill mentioned here does NOT take away a teacher's right to speak out. Such a bill could easily be overturned on First Amendment grounds. The bill presents legal penalties for striking.

    In Florida (which is certainly not as fucked up a state as Colorado), teachers here are not permitted to strike because the law says government employees are not permitted to go on strike. That's probably what the Republican party of Colorado wants to do because it punishes the children.

    https://www.denverpost.com/2018/04/23/republican-bill-ban-teacher-protests-colorado/
    “… It’s a wise thing to do, in some shape or form, in the state of Colorado because we have one district that’s already voted to strike. We have others discussing a strike. Strikes are not good for children.”

    Now in the event you think I'm playing the "children" card, (gee, wonder where I would have gotten such an idea), you should know that public schools BY LAW have to have teachers in the classrooms. They cannot just send kids home for a holiday if teachers decide not to show up for work. It's one of the reasons why I get so much work as a sub. Without people like me, the system collapses.

    Massive teacher walkouts are a threat to public safety, certainly to the most VULNERABLE members of that public. Here in Florida, we take the welfare of a child very seriously. Apparently, so is the Republican Party of Colorado.
     
  11. EatTheRich

    EatTheRich President

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    Tenure protects people from being fired for being pro-union. You seem to understand that teachers are very underpaid, well, just imagine where they’d be without their unions. Yes, it hobbles the unions when the government bans them from striking, but it’s not like the strikes that built the CIO were legal. If the solidarity is there, you can take on the White House and the National Guard and win the way UMWA did.
     
  12. kaz

    kaz Small l libertarian

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    Americans have the most expensive schools anywhere and the worst results for it in the west. The last thing we should do is pay government teachers more
     
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  13. kaz

    kaz Small l libertarian

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    Yep. Teachers are below average performers in college. They get the summer off and endless days off spread through the year. When you adjust their salaries for the time off, their pay is actually pretty good. And our schools are terrible. Before we talk raises, they need to help figure out why our schools are failing so badly and solve it
     
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  14. EatTheRich

    EatTheRich President

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    Our schools also have to compensate for things that aren’t problems in other countries, such as students’ families dealing with untreated illness and crippling medical debt.
     
  15. reason10

    reason10 Mayor

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    Here's the problem. (And I SHOULD HAVE A LITTLE [Unwelcome language removed] STREET CRED ON THIS BECAUSE I AM A CONSERVATIVE AND THE FIRST MOTHERFCKER TO CALL OUT UNDERACHIEVERS IN THIS FIELD.) Not that I'm being emotional or anything.

    I have worked as a substitute teacher for many years. I've had opportunities to see the problem in ways regular teachers haven't seen because I've been able to work for many different schools. And every school, culturally, is almost a different country.

    The problem is not the teachers. Right now McDonald's treats its employees better than local school districts treat teachers.

    Thing is, if you are on the job and you develop better skills, you are paid more. If you are taking over more responsibilities, you are paid more. If the job becomes more difficult, you are paid more.

    That's the way it is in the private sector, right?

    Here's the deal (and this is for conservatives and liberals.) I'm going to give you the facts and I don't give a rat fuckk whether you like it or not. I know what I'm talking about, so maybe how about everybody just shut the fck up and pay attention for a change.

    1. Show me some evidence that ALL teachers are underperformers in college. I know differently. (Yes, some lawyers are underperformers in college, which is why they then run for public office. That explains such idiots as Bill KKKlinton, Hitlary KKKlinton and the KENYAN VILLAGE IDIOT: three stooges who couldn't make a living in the profession of law. So don't point your [Unwelcome language removed] critical eye at schoolteachers when pretty much EVERY Congressman who is a lawyer is a FAILURE at the profession of law and needed to run for public office to make a [Unwelcome language removed] living.)

    2. To bring all of you up to speed, the vast majority of teacher salaries are decided AT THE COUNTY LEVEL. I found this out while working different counties. Some counties pay more than others. The federal government has nothing to do with the differing rates of pay. Neither does the state.

    3. Teachers very often sign up at a certain rate of pay for a certain job. Then ass sniffing yahoos in Washington get a wild hair up their asses and decide to mandate a shit load of new regulations and new requirements for local teachers, which then drag them out of class and create a demand for MY services as a sub.

    3. Teachers get a heavier work load every year WITHOUT A CORRESPONDING RAISE IN PAY. Even the most ignorant high school dropout motherfuckerz who work at McDonalds get a raise after 90 days. Teachers get larger classes and more and more items they somehow have to squeeze in their limited schedule. (I've seen it. I know) And they are held accountable for failures. This includes the IDIOT states who put kids in a classroom who don't even speak [Unwelcome language removed] ENGLISH. Would you like to be held accountable for that? Huh????

    4. Spoiled brats show up in class with $300 designer running shoes and no pencils, no supplies. Take a guess who buys those supplies. No, the school district doesn't require teachers to do this. But after a while of dealing with this little fuckking MORONS, the teachers decide it's easier just to take the money out of their own [Unwelcome language removed] pockets and buy the supplies those idiot students AND THEIR [Unwelcome language removed] IDIOT PARENTs are too fcking cheap to supply.

    5. Bottom line, if you want to know the problem in American education, it ISN'T the lack of funding for education. It ISN'T teachers not willing to do the job. (I've seen teachers in the lounge during lunch and they don't take a [Unwelcome language removed] break from the job. They don't talk about the news, about the weather, about their private lives. They talk about THE GODDAM JOB.) The problem with education is (a) the goddam lazy ass PARENTS, who treat the public school system like a free daycare center, and (b) assholes politicians who have no [Unwelcome language removed] idea what they're talking about because NONE of those [Unwelcome language removed] motherfckers have EVER stood before an actual public school class in their entire shit-for-brains political careers.

    You wanna fix education? Here's a tip: (a) DON'T vote for any politician who thinks the problem can be solved at the federal level. (b). Let the schools have autonomy in being able to FLUNK the lazy shits and suspend and expel the problem students. And be ready to tell certain parents to go fuckk themselves when they try to defend little Johnny, who just assaulted a goddam police officer. (Yes, I've seen that happen. ESE student was never suspended for that attack.)

    You got time for some horror stories? I've got an ass load. I can fill up several forums.
     
  16. reason10

    reason10 Mayor

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    That is the dumbest fcking statement I've ever read in this forum. You have NO fuckingg idea what you're talking about. You're trying to change the [Unwelcome language removed] subject.

    Just shut the fccck up. You don't know what you're talking about.
     
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  17. kaz

    kaz Small l libertarian

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    I was referring to the average. This is a ridiculous argument. If there is one good teacher, then they all get a pass? Nonsense

    They all work for the same union that protects bad teachers and is in it for themselves

    And they get tons of time off that the rest of us don't get. Factually, salaries aren't bad for their college performance (on average) and they are pretty good when you factor in the massive time off. If they work summers, they get paid extra

    And yet teachers are delivering a shitty product. Worst performance for the most expensive government schools in the west. That the people in the classrooms bear no responsibility for the terrible performance of government schools is patently absurd

    The teacher union is leftist, the teachers are disproportionately leftist, the government administrators are disproportionately leftist. Deal with your own issue

    OK, then fix it, then we can talk

    I agree with that, but it isn't the feds who are preventing accountability. It's the leftist bureaucrats and the Union of Failed Teachers
     
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  18. reason10

    reason10 Mayor

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    Yep. Teachers are below average performers in college

    I don't know where you get that myth from, but I'm afraid you have ZERO evidence to back that up with. I'm a free market conservative, and I'm calling BULLSHIT on that remark. There's NO evidence that people who aspire to be public school teachers are below average performers in college. That's the sort of totally IGNORANT remark I'd expect from the forum liberals. I always thought conservatives were smarter than that.

    They get the summer off and endless days off spread through the year. When you adjust their salaries for the time off, their pay is actually pretty good. And our schools are terrible.

    In Lee County, Florida, teachers are leaving the profession because their salaries do not permit them to pay for the increasing cost of housing in this area. So suggesting teacher pay is actually pretty good ignores reality. These people are just like everyone else. They have bills to pay. A lot of them work odd jobs in the summer.

    Before we talk raises, they need to help figure out why our schools are failing so badly and solve it.

    Truthfully, the market system for teacher raises is pretty fucked up, at least in the state of Florida. (And we have some of the most brilliant people in the country so I'm not even going to mention the idiot public school grads in other states.

    From experience, I have determined (I work as a substitute teacher for several counties in Florida) that the best system of raises is an automatic raise every year. I say that because there is NOT SINGLE COLLEGE PROGRAM that will prepare a teacher for the job. Put a Harvard doctorate in the classroom and that person is USELESS in his/her/its first few years on the job. The ONLY way to train a teacher is on the job experience. There are some Florida counties who recognize this and have automatic increases in pay every year. A teacher who has had to stand before the class for four years is worth more than a newbie. But there are several counties here who will let a teacher go for several years without any corresponding raises in pay. And make no mistake: ALL teacher salaries are determined ONLY at the county level.

    If you want to know why public schools are failing, I have the single most important answer, (and this is something I not only have been told by other teachers, but I HAVE EXPERIENCED ON MY OWN.) The problem is the parents, at least 90 percent. Yes, I admit there ARE some bad teachers, just like there are bad employees in all professions. But the problem in education is the I-DON'T-GIVE-A-RATS-ASS attitude of pretty much 95 percent of all the parents out there who are vomiting their hellhounds into the public school system. I've got horror stories that will make you shit yourself.

    Parents will endanger other parents' kids by keeping their little monsters in the classroom by threatening to sue the school board based on some bullshit issue of ESE. I've watched one kid actually ATTACK a police officer on campus, get thrown in jail and then NOT get suspended because his shit for brains mother played the ESE card.
     
  19. Winston

    Winston Do you feel lucky, Punk

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    Teachers are kids who never left school
     
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  20. reason10

    reason10 Mayor

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    I was referring to the average. This is a ridiculous argument. If there is one good teacher, then they all get a pass? Nonsense

    Problem is, there is no such thing as the average. I'm not suggesting anyone gets a pass. I'm suggesting those who EARN the raises should get the raises.


    They all work for the same union that protects bad teachers and is in it for themselves.


    It ISN'T the same union. You need to know (and I understand that you didn't know this because a lot of people don't) that there are MANY unions in the country, in each state. In Florida, the unions have very little leverage because our state statute prohibit state employees from striking. The local unions here don't provide much more than group health insurance, life insurance and occasional legal help if there is a dispute about improper conduct on the part of the teacher.

    And they get tons of time off that the rest of us don't get. Factually, salaries aren't bad for their college performance (on average) and they are pretty good when you factor in the massive time off. If they work summers, they get paid extra

    Teachers work an average of 16 hour days. (Think you could do the same without bitching about more money?) They don't punch a time clock. They spend a lot of home time grading papers and preparing lesson plans. The state or those assholes in Washington will mandate some bullshit political correctness mandate that will drag teachers out of class and they have to spend even more time creating lesson plans for subs like me to come in and take their class while they go through the bullshit. I've seen it up close and personal. It's a reason why I have a job.


    And yet teachers are delivering a shitty product. Worst performance for the most expensive government schools in the west. That the people in the classrooms bear no responsibility for the terrible performance of government schools is patently absurd.

    It isn't the teachers who are delivering the shitty product. It is the system. I'll even go one further. (And remember, I'm a RUSH [Unwelcome language removed] LIMBAUGH CONSERVATIVE so I should have a LITTLE street cred on this. If the problem was the teachers, you know goddam well I'd say it.) The product is not determined by the teachers. They don't write the textbooks nor do they even have the power to decide on the textbooks. They are GIVEN the textbooks and a million and a half dumbass mandates from ass wipes who NEVER have had to stand before a class to teach in their entire lives.) They are told what to do and then the goalposts are moved, almost on a daily basis.


    (Dude. YOU KNOW ME. I wouldn't be saying this if I hadn't seen it with my own damned eyes.)

    The teacher union is leftist, the teachers are disproportionately leftist, the government administrators are disproportionately leftist. Deal with your own issue

    What else is new? What union ISN'T leftist? That doesn't change the fact that Florida is a right to work state, which means a person cannot be legally prohibited from getting a job without being in a union, which I AGREE with, wholeheartedly. Yes, government administrators are leftist. (HEY, FELLOW CONSERVATIVE. I THINK YOU HAVE FINALLY SWERVED INTO THE REAL PROBLEM AND THE REAL ISSUE) It isn't the teachers who are [Unwelcome language removed] up the system. They don't have the power.


    It's the goddam school boards at the county, state, and federal levels.

    OK, then fix it, then we can talk.

    Want me to fix it? King RX has a few mandates he would put out: 1. Get rid of the Department of Education. Block grant its funding to the states. 2. Pass a federal law that teachers can suspend or expel students who commit acts of violence. (ESE students get a pass on this.) 3. Recognize that ANY change or improvements in education will be accomplish ONLY at the county level because that's where most of the control and most of the funding comes from. 4. Enforce the country's immigration laws and REQUIRE that all public students be as fluent in English as kids born here. Or do you think it's fair to hold a teacher accountable for the grades of a student who doesn't speak English at all?


    I agree with that, but it isn't the feds who are preventing accountability. It's the leftist bureaucrats and the Union of Failed Teachers

    There is no such union. And the feds are doing the most damage. They are giving the impression that the answer comes from Washington. And this only creates a bureaucrat class of hacks who draw huge salaries and create useless extra work loads for teachers who barely have time to do their jobs right now.
     

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