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A legal precedent has been established.

NightSwimmer

Senator
If you are a woman living in the state of Florida and you find yourself being followed to the parking lot by an armed stalker as you leave work, you should cooperate fully with the man who is following you. It is perfectly legal to stalk someone in this manner in the state of Florida, and should you attempt to resist in any way, you may be shot and killed on-site. This is the law. Make yourself aware of the law and behave accordingly.

Perhaps you should consider purchasing a gun for your own personal use? After all, if you kill your stalker before he kills you, then you won't have to worry about him subsequently testifying against you in a court of law. Just remember to make it a solid kill shot. Aim for the head and/or chest. Do not fire "warning shots" at your stalker, as the firing of warning shots is illegal in the state of Florida and you would be facing an extended prison sentence for wasting perfectly good ammunition in such a manner.
 

freyasman

Senator
If you are a woman living in the state of Florida and you find yourself being followed to the parking lot by an armed stalker as you leave work, you should cooperate fully with the man who is following you. It is perfectly legal to stalk someone in this manner in the state of Florida, and should you attempt to resist in any way, you may be shot and killed on-site. This is the law. Make yourself aware of the law and behave accordingly.

Perhaps you should consider purchasing a gun for your own personal use? After all, if you kill your stalker before he kills you, then you won't have to worry about him subsequently testifying against you in a court of law. Just remember to make it a solid kill shot. Aim for the head and/or chest. Do not fire "warning shots" at your stalker, as the firing of warning shots is illegal in the state of Florida and you would be facing an extended prison sentence for wasting perfectly good ammunition in such a manner.
Pretty sure "warning shots" are illegal in every state.... If the situation doesn't warrant the use of deadly force, then why are you pulling the trigger? Hell, why did you even bring the gun out?
 

Havelock

Mayor
If you are a woman living in the state of Florida and you find yourself being followed to the parking lot by an armed stalker as you leave work, you should cooperate fully with the man who is following you. It is perfectly legal to stalk someone in this manner in the state of Florida, and should you attempt to resist in any way, you may be shot and killed on-site. This is the law. Make yourself aware of the law and behave accordingly.

Perhaps you should consider purchasing a gun for your own personal use? After all, if you kill your stalker before he kills you, then you won't have to worry about him subsequently testifying against you in a court of law. Just remember to make it a solid kill shot. Aim for the head and/or chest. Do not fire "warning shots" at your stalker, as the firing of warning shots is illegal in the state of Florida and you would be facing an extended prison sentence for wasting perfectly good ammunition in such a manner.
Yep, it's the precedent set here that'll likely have longer-term repercussions. While the usual suspects on PJ are crowing about their “victory” – as shamelessly self-absorbed as ever – they don't seem to realize that cases like Zimmerman's tend to turn public sentiment against the legal regime and social attitudes they want so desperately to promote and preserve.

So many people seem to have gotten caught up in the legal details of this case... There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but it's fairly pointless to do that in a casual way. Unless one delves into the actual testimony and evidence comprehensively, it's not really helpful to speculate about how a case should have been decided based on this or that theory of events or interpretation of applicable laws. That's what a trial is for, after all.

So I'll not second guess the verdict here. Fact is, the state had a weak case. Once we heard persuasive or even plausible evidence that an altercation had actually taken place, that Zimmerman was apparently getting the worst of it, and that Martin was shot from below in the course of this altercation, it was clear that acquittal was a very possible if not probable outcome. That's arguably the proper outcome as a matter of law.

I have to say, though, that the ostentatiously “high-minded” pontificating of some on this board who've gone on about how the outcome was never in doubt because the jury's legal duty was crystal clear is amusing if a little nauseating. The truth is that judges and juries quite often ignore the finer points of legal ethics and burden of proof to get to the verdict they want. Anyone who imagines that any trial takes place in some higher plane of reality where feelings, biases, and ingrained assumptions don't influence the outcome is living in a fantasy world.

And Lord knows there were plenty of gray areas in this case where biases and assumptions could creep in and push people one way or another.

Of course I suspect most if not all of our resident legal pundits understand all that perfectly well and are only feigning a belief in the clarity of the process in this case because they like this particular outcome. Anyway...

Now, here's something I really don't understand. A number of folks on this board have consistently emphasized the idea that only a chump and an eventual victim leaves his or her defense in the hands of others. A real man or woman ought to be prepared at all times to “take out” any serious threats that present themselves. Only a fool waits for the cops, they say.

And yet, for the most part, the very same folks who tell us constantly that we need to be prepared to defend ourselves at all times have called Trayvon a thug and a criminal for attacking a suspicious character who was following him. Seems to be a contradiction here...

Based on thier philosophy, it seems to me that our local champions of self-defense ought identify Trayvon's critical mistake as leaving his house without a gun of his own. If he'd been packing, he could have confronted Zimmerman and demanded to know why Zimmerman was following him, secure in the knowledge that he could take Zimmerman out if Zimmerman couldn't account for his actions to Trayvon's satisfaction.

At the very least there could have been a fair gunfight and may the best shot win!

Right, so here's why some folks' celebration of the Zimmerman verdict is short sighted. Even if we accept that the state didn't make its case beyond a reasonable doubt, the fact is that if Zimmerman didn't leave his home with a gun that night, both he and Trayvon Martin would almost certainly be alive today and, in fact, it's reasonably likely that a fight would never have occurred. I can already hear some posters screeching “You don't know that!” Doesn't matter... The majority of people would agree that a needless tragedy could have easily been avoided. “Could” morphs into “should” pretty easily.

Further, I think at least a slim majority of folks would also agree that if Trayvon had been white, he'd likely be alive today. Zimmerman may well not have assumed that Martin was up to no good and even if he had questions, he probably wouldn't have seen Martin as such a potential threat. It's likely that the tenor of their encounter, if there had even been an encounter, would have been very different. That's the reality that a lot of people live every day.

If people believe that Trayvon – who was after all an innocent teenager doing nothing wrong the night he was killed – would be alive if Zimmerman hadn't left home with a gun, then that undermines the idea that our current legal regime regarding owning and carrying firearms is fine and dandy. Not incidentally, it also undermines the recent legal trend to make a self-defense claim easier to assert.

If people believe that Trayvon would be alive today if he were white, then that undermines the idea that our society has moved beyond old racial biases and it's only the folks who won't let go of old grudges or race-based benefits that are the problem.

All in all, it seems to me that a straight-up innocent verdict for Zimmerman is likely to be a political setback for many of the folks who are celebrating it the most.

Cheers.
 
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NightSwimmer

Senator
Pretty sure "warning shots" are illegal in every state.... If the situation doesn't warrant the use of deadly force, then why are you pulling the trigger? Hell, why did you even bring the gun out?

Indeed. The lesson for Floridians is clear. If you shoot -- shoot to kill. That is the best way to avoid criminal liability, should you become involved in an altercation.

The lesson for non-Floridians is also obvious... Seek a different vacation destination.
 

fairsheet

Senator
Pretty sure "warning shots" are illegal in every state.... If the situation doesn't warrant the use of deadly force, then why are you pulling the trigger? Hell, why did you even bring the gun out?
Just to clarify - in ANY state - "warning shots" are no more legal or illegal, than are shoot to kill shots. In other words, each instance is different from every other.
 
S

squareshot

Guest
Yep, it's the precedent set here that'll likely have longer-term repercussions. While the usual suspects on PJ are crowing about their “victory” – as shamelessly self-absorbed as ever – they don't seem to realize that cases like Zimmerman's tend to turn public sentiment against the legal regime and social attitudes they want so desperately to promote and preserve.

So many people seem to have gotten caught up in the legal details of this case... There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but it's fairly pointless to do that in a casual way. Unless one delves into the actual testimony and evidence comprehensively, it's not really helpful to speculate about how a case should have been decided based on this or that theory of events or interpretation of applicable laws. That's what a trial is for, after all.

So I'll not second guess the verdict here. Fact is, the state had a weak case. Once we heard persuasive or even plausible evidence that an altercation had actually taken place, that Zimmerman was apparently getting the worst of it, and that Martin was shot from below in the course of this altercation, it was clear that acquittal was a very possible if not probable outcome. That's arguably the proper outcome as a matter of law.

I have to say, though, that the ostentatiously “high-minded” pontificating of some on this board who've gone on about how the outcome was never in doubt because the jury's legal duty was crystal clear is amusing if a little nauseating. The truth is that judges and juries quite often ignore the finer points of legal ethics and burden of proof to get to the verdict they want. Anyone who imagines that any trial takes place in some higher plane of reality where feelings, biases, and ingrained assumptions don't influence the outcome is living in a fantasy world.

And Lord knows there were plenty of gray areas in this case where biases and assumptions could creep in and push people one way or another.

Of course I suspect most if not all of our resident legal pundits understand all that perfectly well and are only feigning a belief in the clarity of the process in this case because they like this particular outcome. Anyway...

Now, here's something I really don't understand. A number of folks on this board have consistently emphasized the idea that only a chump and an eventual victim leaves his or her defense in the hands of others. A real man or woman ought to be prepared at all times to “take out” any serious threats that present themselves. Only a fool waits for the cops, they say.

And yet, for the most part, the very same folks who tell us constantly that we need to be prepared to defend ourselves at all times have called Trayvon a thug and a criminal for attacking a suspicious character who was following him. Seems to be a contradiction here...

Based on thier philosophy, it seems to me that our local champions of self-defense ought identify Trayvon's critical mistake as leaving his house without a gun of his own. If he'd been packing, he could have confronted Zimmerman and demanded to know why Zimmerman was following him, secure in the knowledge that he could take Zimmerman out if Zimmerman couldn't account for his actions to Trayvon's satisfaction.

At the very least there could have been a fair gunfight and may the best shot win!

Right, so here's why some folks' celebration of the Zimmerman verdict is short sighted. Even if we accept that the state didn't make its case beyond a reasonable doubt, the fact is that if Zimmerman didn't leave his home with a gun that night, both he and Trayvon Martin would almost certainly be alive today and, in fact, it's reasonably likely that a fight would never have occurred. I can already hear some posters screeching “You don't know that!” Doesn't matter... The majority of people would agree that a needless tragedy could have easily been avoided. “Could” morphs into “should” pretty easily.

Further, I think at least a slim majority of folks would also agree that if Trayvon had been white, he'd likely be alive today. Zimmerman may well not have assumed that Martin was up to no good and even if he had questions, he probably wouldn't have seen Martin as such a potential threat. It's likely that the tenor of their encounter, if there had even been an encounter, would have been very different. That's the reality that a lot of people live every day.

If people believe that Trayvon – who was after all an innocent teenager doing nothing wrong the night he was killed – would be alive if Zimmerman hadn't left home with a gun, then that undermines the idea that our current legal regime regarding owning and carrying firearms is fine and dandy. Not incidentally, it also undermines the recent legal trend to make a self-defense claim easier to assert.

If people believe that Trayvon would be alive today if he were white, then that undermines the idea that our society has moved beyond old racial biases and it's only the folks who won't let go of old grudges or race-based benefits that are the problem.

All in all, it seems to me that a straight-up innocent verdict for Zimmerman is likely to be a political setback for many of the folks who are celebrating it the most.

Cheers.
Hi Night Swimmer, there seems to be an agreement that Zimmerman is guilty of killing an innocent child. That everything that happened, was the fault of Zimmerman, that Martin did absolutely nothing to cause his death. Am I reading this all wrong because I think Martin didn't have the right to attack Zimmerman. I think Zimmerman was trying to get away from Martin, with his game of chicken over. But Martin was not ready for the game to be over, and started pounding the back of Zimmerman's head. When Zimmerman turned to face Martin, he was cold cocked, ending up on his back with Martin on top of him, and screaming in his best little girl voice, for someone to help him. Completely terrorfied, Zimmerman realized that he was wearing a gun and pulled the trigger on Martin. I really do think it was a tragedy that could have been avoided by either party, had they withdrawn from the aggressive posture, and been a little cooler in their behavior.
 

NightSwimmer

Senator
Hi Night Swimmer, there seems to be an agreement that Zimmerman is guilty of killing an innocent child. That everything that happened, was the fault of Zimmerman, that Martin did absolutely nothing to cause his death. Am I reading this all wrong because I think Martin didn't have the right to attack Zimmerman. I think Zimmerman was trying to get away from Martin, with his game of chicken over. But Martin was not ready for the game to be over, and started pounding the back of Zimmerman's head. When Zimmerman turned to face Martin, he was cold cocked, ending up on his back with Martin on top of him, and screaming in his best little girl voice, for someone to help him. Completely terrorfied, Zimmerman realized that he was wearing a gun and pulled the trigger on Martin. I really do think it was a tragedy that could have been avoided by either party, had they withdrawn from the aggressive posture, and been a little cooler in their behavior.

You're free to imagine anything that pleases you. Odd thing about which to fantasize, IMHO.
 
S

squareshot

Guest
You're free to imagine anything that pleases you. Odd thing about which to fantasize, IMHO.
In my opinion this is not fantasy. If you listened to the testimony this was where you would be lead. From the git go, I waited to learn who was yelling and who was on top. Once it was established that Martin was on top it was settled in my mind. Martin was young, and appeared to be very healthy, and beating the dough boy required little effort on his part. You can call it fantasy if you wish, but you will not give the jury the credit that they deserve, if we don't listen to the testimony and believe it.
 

NightSwimmer

Senator
In my opinion this is not fantasy. If you listened to the testimony this was where you would be lead. From the git go, I waited to learn who was yelling and who was on top. Once it was established that Martin was on top it was settled in my mind. Martin was young, and appeared to be very healthy, and beating the dough boy required little effort on his part. You can call it fantasy if you wish, but you will not give the jury the credit that they deserve, if we don't listen to the testimony and believe it.
The jury didn't find Zimmerman innocent based upon the evidence presented. They found Zimmerman not guilty based upon the lack of evidence that was presented. One of the star witnesses in the case was unwilling to testify, and the other was unable to testify.
 
S

squareshot

Guest
The jury didn't find Zimmerman innocent based upon the evidence presented. They found Zimmerman not guilty based upon the lack of evidence that was presented. One of the star witnesses in the case was unwilling to testify, and the other was unable to testify.
Hi Night: At any rate the jury found Zimmerman not guilty and if you live in the U. S. , you cannot be tried for a second time for the same crime. Give the jury credit for rendering a tough verdict in this case, and let a sleeping dog lie.
 

NightSwimmer

Senator
Hi Night: At any rate the jury found Zimmerman not guilty and if you live in the U. S. , you cannot be tried for a second time for the same crime. Give the jury credit for rendering a tough verdict in this case, and let a sleeping dog lie.
My problem is not with the jury, but with the Florida legislature. Their lust for NRA money has led them to enable the hunting of humans in the Sunshine State.
 

oicu812

"Trust, but Verify"
Indeed. The lesson for Floridians is clear. If you shoot -- shoot to kill. That is the best way to avoid criminal liability, should you become involved in an altercation.

The lesson for non-Floridians is also obvious... Seek a different vacation destination.
sage advice..
two to the chest, {then just in case they are wearing body armour} two to the head...

kill em and let god/police sort it out...
 
S

squareshot

Guest
My problem is not with the jury, but with the Florida legislature. Their lust for NRA money has led them to enable the hunting of humans in the Sunshine State.
If you are referring to the Martin/Zimmerman affair, I have a hard time connecting those dots. Are you saying that you would prefer that all Americans be disarmed, and be at the mercy of criminals. Particularly if the criminal plans to kill you.
 
S

squareshot

Guest
The jury didn't find Zimmerman innocent based upon the evidence presented. They found Zimmerman not guilty based upon the lack of evidence that was presented. One of the star witnesses in the case was unwilling to testify, and the other was unable to testify.
Hi Night, There seems to be a thought in your post, that being found not guilty, is not the same as being innocent. According to the law it is the same exact thing. If a witness wishes not to testify he can not be forced too. And this jury found the defendant not guilty, in spite of what one juror says in the press. It only took one juror to change the verdict. I think it's time for the judge to shut that juror up.
 

NightSwimmer

Senator
Hi Night, There seems to be a thought in your post, that being found not guilty, is not the same as being innocent. According to the law it is the same exact thing. If a witness wishes not to testify he can not be forced too. And this jury found the defendant not guilty, in spite of what one juror says in the press. It only took one juror to change the verdict. I think it's time for the judge to shut that juror up.
I understand your position. Having grown up in the segregated South, I'm all too familiar with it.
 
S

squareshot

Guest
Hi Night: I pray that I am not spreading some kind of racial bigotry. I am not talking to black Americans, nor about them. I am talking about the law and the one juror that decides six days after the trial, that Zimmerman is a murder. If the judge allows her to continue second guessing herself, then no defendant will ever be found completely not guilty. That is why we have trials to decide guilt or innocence. She had a vote and failed to decide in the jury room his guilt or innocence. It is too late to change her mind now.
 
S

squareshot

Guest
Hi Night, Well, I prayed a lot until I discovered that the decisions have been made by a power much greater than anything we have ever seen. I think you must accept what confronts you. That's what Zimmerman did.
 
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