A thin line for dissent: 18 U.S. Code § 2385 - Advocating overthrow of Government

[MrMike]

When you have a government that is willingly operating in conflict with the Constitution of the United States and not following their oath of elected office there are limited recourses you can take as citizenry.

Given that, the ability of the government through different forms and measurements can in fact squash dissent or directions that would lead to its removal (aka overthrow). You do have to wonder sometime if the orchestrated malfeasance and scandals by this administration are slowly building up to provoke a critical event that would lead to something we all do not want.

I again harken back to Eric Holder's re-ignition of the Domestic Terrorism Council last week and their ability to determine who/what constitutes a domestic terrorist and how they can place resources and pressure on select groups (note what we've already seen via the IRS). We are entering a strange even more dangerous phase in US domestic policy and control. If the interpretation of 18 U.S. Code/2385 is slanted politically and arbitrarily then it may become game over for opposing organized political dissent in our country.

Despite your own personal political leanings or support for any party or office holder, I do suggest everyone try to step back and rationally consider the implications of the totality of the events we're seeing now that have become so common in our news (scandals, borders, intrusions, etc.). Try to ignore the (D) or (R) for a minute and think...just think of what is happening. It isn't a good thing...

Have a good day!



http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2385

18 U.S. Code § 2385 - Advocating overthrow of Government

Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or

Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or

Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

As used in this section, the terms “organizes” and “organize”, with respect to any society, group, or assembly of persons, include the recruiting of new members, the forming of new units, and the regrouping or expansion of existing clubs, classes, and other units of such society, group, or assembly of persons.

 

[resident_evil]

This is how intellectually and spiritually impoverished government officials have become. This was not even done after the end of a real civil war; our Civil War.

Government is quite clearly defective in every way imaginable.

 

[MrMike]

I know. I think we are becoming what the founders feared and that both political parties are in collusion on that whether by intent or accident (desire to exert/retain power).

This is how intellectually and spiritually impoverished government officials have become. This was not even done after the end of a real civil war; our Civil War.

Government is quite clearly defective in every way imaginable.

 

[connieb]

This is how intellectually and spiritually impoverished government officials have become. This was not even done after the end of a real civil war; our Civil War.

Government is quite clearly defective in every way imaginable.

Honestly, I would love to see this challeneged in court. I can not believe it is actually constitutional. maybe it has been, but its the kind of thing that should be brought up again. The reality is that the founders thought revolution every now and again was actually an important part of the process. Only those who believe that Gov't should be self perpetuating wouldn't on occasion suggest that we need to wipe the slate clean and start again.

connie

 

[RickWA]

When you have a government that is willingly operating in conflict with the Constitution of the United States and not following their oath of elected office there are limited recourses you can take as citizenry.

Given that, the ability of the government through different forms and measurements can in fact squash dissent or directions that would lead to its removal (aka overthrow). You do have to wonder sometime if the orchestrated malfeasance and scandals by this administration are slowly building up to provoke a critical event that would lead to something we all do not want.

I again harken back to Eric Holder's re-ignition of the Domestic Terrorism Council last week and their ability to determine who/what constitutes a domestic terrorist and how they can place resources and pressure on select groups (note what we've already seen via the IRS). We are entering a strange even more dangerous phase in US domestic policy and control. If the interpretation of 18 U.S. Code/2385 is slanted politically and arbitrarily then it may become game over for opposing organized political dissent in our country.

Despite your own personal political leanings or support for any party or office holder, I do suggest everyone try to step back and rationally consider the implications of the totality of the events we're seeing now that have become so common in our news (scandals, borders, intrusions, etc.). Try to ignore the (D) or (R) for a minute and think...just think of what is happening. It isn't a good thing...

Have a good day!



http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2385

18 U.S. Code § 2385 - Advocating overthrow of Government

Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or

Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or

Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

As used in this section, the terms “organizes” and “organize”, with respect to any society, group, or assembly of persons, include the recruiting of new members, the forming of new units, and the regrouping or expansion of existing clubs, classes, and other units of such society, group, or assembly of persons.

As the radicals continue to erode the socio-cultural tethers and institutions of value that bind us, they must increasingly rely on artificial means to ensure order and alignment. Coercion supplants culture. This sort of thing will continue. There can be no vacuum. That void will be filled with the authoritarian state. What's odd is that so many folks love the prospect.
I guess when one is empty, just about anything constitutes fulfillment.

 

[Craig]

When you have a government that is willingly operating in conflict with the Constitution of the United States and not following their oath of elected office there are limited recourses you can take as citizenry.

Given that, the ability of the government through different forms and measurements can in fact squash dissent or directions that would lead to its removal (aka overthrow). You do have to wonder sometime if the orchestrated malfeasance and scandals by this administration are slowly building up to provoke a critical event that would lead to something we all do not want.

I again harken back to Eric Holder's re-ignition of the Domestic Terrorism Council last week and their ability to determine who/what constitutes a domestic terrorist and how they can place resources and pressure on select groups (note what we've already seen via the IRS). We are entering a strange even more dangerous phase in US domestic policy and control. If the interpretation of 18 U.S. Code/2385 is slanted politically and arbitrarily then it may become game over for opposing organized political dissent in our country.

Despite your own personal political leanings or support for any party or office holder, I do suggest everyone try to step back and rationally consider the implications of the totality of the events we're seeing now that have become so common in our news (scandals, borders, intrusions, etc.). Try to ignore the (D) or (R) for a minute and think...just think of what is happening. It isn't a good thing...

Have a good day!



http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2385

18 U.S. Code § 2385 - Advocating overthrow of Government

Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or

Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or

Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

As used in this section, the terms “organizes” and “organize”, with respect to any society, group, or assembly of persons, include the recruiting of new members, the forming of new units, and the regrouping or expansion of existing clubs, classes, and other units of such society, group, or assembly of persons.

Just so the folks understand, this is the Smith Act and was signed into law in 1940.


Smith Act, formally Alien Registration Act of 1940, U.S. federal law passed in 1940 that made it a criminal offense to advocate violent overthrow of the government or to organize or be a member of any group or society devoted to such advocacy. After World War II this statute was made the basis of a series of prosecutions against leaders of the Communist Party and the Socialist Workers Party. The conviction of the principal officers was sustained, and the constitutionality of the “advocacy” provision upheld, by the Supreme Court in Dennis v. United States (1951); but in a later case (Yates v. United States, 1957) the court offset this position somewhat by a strict reading of the language of the Smith Act, construing “advocacy” to mean only urging that includes incitement to unlawful action.


http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/549923/Smith-Act

 

[resident_evil]

The government is supposed to fear the people rightly over throwing them. It is not their right to impose laws that try to circumvent natural laws. This legislation if unlawful legislation that should get every last one who votes for it to be impeached.

The double standard is mind numbing. What right did Kosovo have to secede that states here in America do not have?

 

[RickWA]

Honestly, I would love to see this challeneged in court. I can not believe it is actually constitutional. maybe it has been, but its the kind of thing that should be brought up again. The reality is that the founders thought revolution every now and again was actually an important part of the process. Only those who believe that Gov't should be self perpetuating wouldn't on occasion suggest that we need to wipe the slate clean and start again.

connie

Honestly, every iteration of the Patriot Act is likewise an abomination. Some folks resign themselves to sit back and observe which party enacts bad policy or when. The fact of the matter is that, in just about every meaningful way, we're trending more centralized and more authoritarian. Most bothersome of all is that each successive presidency grows less accountable and more unchecked by the other branches of government.

 

[connieb]

Honestly, every iteration of the Patriot Act is likewise an abomination. Some folks resign themselves to sit back and observe which party enacts bad policy or when. The fact of the matter is that, in just about every meaningful way, we're trending more centralized and more authoritarian. Most bothersome of all is that each successive presidency grows less accountable and more unchecked by the other branches of government.

Indeed. It is scary Rick. Really.

 

[RickWA]

Indeed. It is scary Rick. Really.

It will be "scary" to some newly alarmed folks in 2017. They will emerge from their transe-like state, infused with a renewed sense of stewardship...and dissent will once again become "the highest form of patriotism".
Maybe...

 

[Marcus Aurelius]

I do not believe this is technically unconstitutional. However, it does fly directly in the face of another equally important historical document...


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

 

[RickWA]

I do not believe this is technically unconstitutional. However, it does fly directly in the face of another equally important historical document...


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

Lots of what we do is "unconstitutional". It's just that technical extraconstitutionality is defined by a willing court here or there.
IOW, even our national charter document is relative. Then, we decide which "liquid" interpretation is acceptable based on whether we or our party agrees/whether our guy nominated the key deciding justice(s).

Welcome to the Balkanized sinkhole.

 

[BitterPill]

When you have a government that is willingly operating in conflict with the Constitution of the United States and not following their oath of elected office there are limited recourses you can take as citizenry.

Given that, the ability of the government through different forms and measurements can in fact squash dissent or directions that would lead to its removal (aka overthrow). You do have to wonder sometime if the orchestrated malfeasance and scandals by this administration are slowly building up to provoke a critical event that would lead to something we all do not want.

I again harken back to Eric Holder's re-ignition of the Domestic Terrorism Council last week and their ability to determine who/what constitutes a domestic terrorist and how they can place resources and pressure on select groups (note what we've already seen via the IRS). We are entering a strange even more dangerous phase in US domestic policy and control. If the interpretation of 18 U.S. Code/2385 is slanted politically and arbitrarily then it may become game over for opposing organized political dissent in our country.

Despite your own personal political leanings or support for any party or office holder, I do suggest everyone try to step back and rationally consider the implications of the totality of the events we're seeing now that have become so common in our news (scandals, borders, intrusions, etc.). Try to ignore the (D) or (R) for a minute and think...just think of what is happening. It isn't a good thing...

Have a good day!



http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2385

18 U.S. Code § 2385 - Advocating overthrow of Government

Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or

Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or

Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

As used in this section, the terms “organizes” and “organize”, with respect to any society, group, or assembly of persons, include the recruiting of new members, the forming of new units, and the regrouping or expansion of existing clubs, classes, and other units of such society, group, or assembly of persons.

It is illegal to plot to overthrow our government or to try and overthrow our government.

I thought everyone knew that, but at least now you do.

 

[Boca]

If I might...

Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or '

I hereby knowingly and willfully advocate getting rid of every elected SOB in Washington together with every SOB each of the aforementioned SOBs appointed.

Point being there's a huge difference between overthrowing and destroying a government and getting rid of the SOBs that are in fact destroying it as we speak.

 

[MrMike]

That's a key point. Whoever wears the crown is interpreting the rules in a more casual and purposeful way towards political opponents. While I think both parties have strayed from the reservation already, it seems to be getting worse and sooner or later one of these Kings is going to go for the proverbial brass ring.

It will be "scary" to some newly alarmed folks in 2017. They will emerge from their transe-like state, infused with a renewed sense of stewardship...and dissent will once again become "the highest form of patriotism".
Maybe...

 

[RickWA]

That's a key point. Whoever wears the crown is interpreting the rules in a more casual and purposeful way towards political opponents. While I think both parties have strayed from the reservation already, it seems to be getting worse and sooner or later one of these Kings is going to go for the proverbial brass ring.

Agreed. Tolerance of tyranny is flavor-based. That's a huge problem.

 

[connieb]

It is illegal to plot to overthrow our government or to try and overthrow our government.

I thought everyone knew that, but at least now you do.

It wasn't - at one time, actually. Now it is... doesn't it concern you that the Government took it upon itself to make it illegal to plot against it, which is in many cases necessary when you have those in Government making rules to suit themselves?

 

[MrMike]

I totally agree about the difference. My concern is the people who are making that definition in our government can/will flex that definition (of a threat) to fit their agenda.

We've already seen a little sample of this using the IRS to target who? People that want the US to actually honor and follow its Constitution.

If I might...



I hereby knowingly and willfully advocate getting rid of every elected SOB in Washington together with every SOB each of the aforementioned SOBs appointed.

Point being there's a huge difference between overthrowing and destroying a government and getting rid of the SOBs that are in fact destroying it as we speak.

 

[BitterPill]

Lots of what we do is "unconstitutional". It's just that technical extraconstitutionality is defined by a willing court here or there.
IOW, even our national charter document is relative. Then, we decide which "liquid" interpretation is acceptable based on whether we or our party agrees/whether our guy nominated the key deciding justice(s).

Welcome to the Balkanized sinkhole.

Perhaps you can provide an example of us being 'unconstitutional'. Considering your post, it should be relatively easy.

 

[Marcus Aurelius]

It is illegal to plot to overthrow our government or to try and overthrow our government.

I thought everyone knew that,

It is illegal to plot to overthrow our government or to try and overthrow our government.

I thought everyone knew that, but at least now you do.

but at least now you do.

The Founding fathers broke that particular law. Because of it, we have the right today to do so, should the serious need arise.