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As long as they rule your money, they rule you.

Discussion in 'Economics, Business, and Taxes' started by Days, Oct 18, 2013.

  1. LanceFreeman

    LanceFreeman Mayor

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    The magical attraction of metal coinage is that it remains stable, and acceptable, under any condition. Nobody is making any more gold, for example. Nobody is making any more silver, or platinum. These are finite elements, which cannot be counterfeited, or reproduced. Unlike fiat currency, which can be produced to infinity. Now, given the choice of either a finite metal of value, or a piece of paper, which can be easily replicated by government or counterfeiter, which would you choose as a basis of your treasure? It does not take a rocket scientist.
     
  2. Wahbooz

    Wahbooz Governor

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    I certainly don't "get" a fiat coin that is going to retire any debt, especially debt we owe other countries. But I am still a strong supporter of coinage over currency. And what Days doesn't seem to understand is that the government isn't simply printing more money, but printing more money to replace money that has been destroyed for a number of reasons; whether it is worn out, contaminated, or some other reason.

    I still think coinage is more sanitary, and cheaper because it lasts longer.

    There was a time when coinage was the best way to transmit value, because they had real value. But that is impossible today, when you have speculators fluctuating the value of precious metals.
     
  3. Wahbooz

    Wahbooz Governor

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    Not totally true, Lance. China has been getting very good at producing counterfeit rare coins, as well as the capsules they are contained in. Coin collectors need to be aware of that. Many websites have been shut down for selling counterfeit coins, but one more pops up very quickly.
     
  4. LanceFreeman

    LanceFreeman Mayor

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    That's interesting, Wahbooz. What are these counterfeit coins made of? If they are made of 24 carat gold, then they are worth their weight on the market, like any other gold coin. They may not be a rare coin, but they are gold. But if they are partially gold, and partially something else (like tungsten), then it is outright fraud. However, in my previous post, I was talking about genuine gold coins, any gold coins. You cannot compare gold coins with fiat paper as a store of value.

    Btw, because of the way people look upon gold and other precious metals in times of crisis, gold and silver will always have solid value when paper currency has collapsed and is no longer accepted in exchange for goods. In the 1920's, for example, Germans would have gladly traded all of their paper currency for a few gold or silver coins.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2013
  5. Wahbooz

    Wahbooz Governor

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    I can't say if anybody has analyzed them, but even if a counterfeit 1851 $20 Double Eagle contains 33 grams of Gold, that is supposed to be MS64, it will not fetch even close to the $30,000+ price tag the real one can realize. Or an 1895 Morgan proof, in MS64, would not garner the $50 - 60,000 price tag. So you'd definitely be losing unless you sold it to someone unsuspecting.

    True, but the market value of Gold and Silver can quickly fall.
     
  6. LanceFreeman

    LanceFreeman Mayor

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    Quite right; I cannot imagine these forged coins will bring anywhere near the price of the originals, if properly assessed. Quite likely, they will bring only what the price of one ounce of gold would be at the time of sale, plus a small margin for looks. However, if you bought these coins yourself as rare coins, and paid a premium, then you're screwed. A buyer has to always be on his toes, whether it is with coins, or paintings, or rare China, or gold bars. I hear the Chinese have been peddling gold bars on the world market, but which have tungsten as the core. Tungsten has the same weight as gold in the same mass quantity, so you can imagine the opportunities for fraud here. Hardly anyone will suspect that a gold bar has a tungsten core, because it looks and feels, and weighs, like a gold bar.
     
  7. Wahbooz

    Wahbooz Governor

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    If the coin is encased in a counterfeit PCGS or NGC capsule, it most likely pass for genuine, unless the buyer verifies the certification number online. If it's a raw coin, buyer beware.

    I wouldn't be surprised if they took lessons from the 'snake oil salesmen' of Wall Street.
     
  8. Sunset Rose

    Sunset Rose Mayor

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    Thank you. I just recently invested in one of thier mutual funds:)
     
  9. Woolleybugger

    Woolleybugger Mayor

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    Fiat money was invented for a reason. Metal backed money did not work. Fiat currency is the key to total control of your own economy and nation. Without it, you are in the control of someone else. For gold-bugs, your master is the amount of gold on hand, fear of inflation and balance of payments. You are also in deep doo doo if your imports are greater than your exports. I sell you a billion dollars of goods, you sell me 100 million, you owe me 900 million. I want it in convertible currency. You don't have enough gold. Now what do you do? Fiat currency allows for a nation to completely control the money supply and wealth creation. There is no limit to how much money a nation can create. Deficits don't even matter. The only thing that constrains a fiat currency is balance of payments with other currencies. But in our case, we are the world's currency so our debts are paid in dollars mostly. Fiat currency is power.

    Before Hitler said no mas to repayments to France and the UK, Germany was in big trouble. He just said no more and spent money like a drunken sailor internally and the economy turned around instantly. Why? He said f you to the gold bugs.
     
  10. Queen Titania

    Queen Titania Senator

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    One Labour Gov did that here, it was a disaster, the landed gentry lost everything, what ever we think of them they did care about and for the Land, and were to a great extent our protectors, their Estates were all bought up by the new rich and or foreign money, who did/do not give a shit. And the 90% tax sent much talent abroad as well as bankrupting many.

    In Steiners' Three Fold Commonwealth he puts forward an idea that after the death of a very wealthy person their huge wealth is left in the family for say 25 years only, then it is put back into the social pot. There bye allowing the next generation to use it to build their own lives but not squander or misuse/abuse it/corrupt with it.
     
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  11. Woolleybugger

    Woolleybugger Mayor

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    I think we can learn a lot from the Brits but then we would have to admit we are not exceptional..I am willing to admit it.
     
  12. Queen Titania

    Queen Titania Senator

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    :) xxxx We could all do well to learn from each other, n'est ce pas?
     
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  13. LanceFreeman

    LanceFreeman Mayor

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    Yes, but power for whom? Here in the states, that power belongs to the Jewish bankers, and they are using that power to re-direct our national destiny, usurp our sovereignty, and destroy our society. Fiat currency is guaranteed to lose its worth over time, and will eventually collapse the society it supports, unless it is backed by something that has inherent value, like a precious metal (gold, silver, platinum, paladium, etc.) or some sort of useful commodity that everybody recognizes. Otherwise, fiat currency will require that the government producing it practice strict discipline in the amounts it produces, plus strict accounting of how the money is spent. Unfortunately, governments don't have that kind of discipline, and that is why loose fiat currency eventually collapses, unless it is anchored to something.
     
  14. Wahbooz

    Wahbooz Governor

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    May I suggest something for you to research, Lance? Thomas Gresham, Queen Elizabeth, and bad money. Gresham's Law is bad money drives good money out of circulation.
     
  15. LanceFreeman

    LanceFreeman Mayor

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    I will certainly look into this. I guess what bothers me most of all is the idea that fiat money is a good thing, when history has shown that it always leads to loose fiscal policy by government, and then to collapse. Maybe I am missing something here.
     
  16. Wahbooz

    Wahbooz Governor

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    You are. and then go back and look at the periods of history when precious metals values fluctuated, and see how the economy suffered.
     
  17. Woolleybugger

    Woolleybugger Mayor

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    Fiat money is created by the state not the banks. As for the Jewish angle, once you went there I stopped reading.
     
  18. Woolleybugger

    Woolleybugger Mayor

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    I have no idea where you got the idea that history proves fiat money leads to loose fiscal policy. Fiat money first existed in 74 and it has worked fine. The only problem with fiat money is that most people do not understand it and still cling to ideas and concepts based upon gold or metals backed currency. For instance, if the government can create money at will, why doe it bother with treasury bills? What is the point? Another issue is that in metals backed currency, you have a zero sum game. Since the supply of money is tied to reserves and reserve ratios, your supply of money is limited to how much of the metals you hold. Tell me how you increase wealth in this system? Find more gold? Take it from the other guy? This is one of the reasons why we gave up on gold standard.
     
  19. LanceFreeman

    LanceFreeman Mayor

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    Wolleybugger: I do not profess to be an economist, and I have said so before, but every country in the world that has utilized fiat money has embraced a loose fiscal policy. Look at Europe and what has happened to their economies. They are in debt up to their eyeballs, and are begging one another for assistance. Their people are out of work, and their middle class is shrinking. If fiat money was such a good thing, why is there a crisis in Europe? And why is that crisis raising its ugly head here?

    It is true that the government can print as much money as it wants, without borrowing, but truth is, the government does not print its own money now. It must borrow at interest from the FED, no choice, according to Federal Reserve Act. It issues bonds and borrows from other nations because this borrowed money is from existing, circulating currency, not from newly printed currency. Newly printed currency merely aggravates the debasement situation. That is how the government prolongs the life of fiat currency, by keeping the printing presses running as slow as possible. But sooner or later, time runs out on fiat currency. It becomes so debased that people do not want it anymore in trade. They start searching for some other medium of exchange. It becomes a case of too much money chasing too few goods. The new medium that people around the world are looking at today, to replace the debased U.S. dollar, is the Chinese Yuan. They want to start trading in Yuan, not the U.S. dollar, and only because China has a favorable, healthier balance of trade situation, and is not up to its ears in debt. Ultimately, the Yuan will face the same problem as the dollar, if China does not anchor its currency to something that has intrinsic value.

    We do not have to base our currency on gold alone. It could be a basket of precious metals, or mixed commodities, or some other item of value that is not so finite. I agree that gold alone today will not get it. People, and governments, need to know that the currency they hold is anchored to something that can be traded quickly for something of value in a crisis, besides just the paper it is printed on.
     
  20. LanceFreeman

    LanceFreeman Mayor

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    You stopped reading? Who do you think owns the Federal Reserve, and the 12 Federal Reserve banks? You need to get your head out of the sand, old bean. Mind you, 99% of the American people are right there alongside you. You need to read 'Creature Fron Jekyll Island' by G. Edward Griffin, and 'Enroute to Global Occuopation' by Gary Kah. I am not surprised you stopped reading. Your problem is you do not read enough.
     

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