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Brexit update.

Did Thatcher see herself as a classical liberal?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism#Political_economy

"Classical liberals saw utility as the foundation for public policies. This broke both with conservative 'tradition' and Lockean 'natural rights', which were seen as irrational. Utility, which emphasises the happiness of individuals, became the central ethical value of all liberalism.[80]

"Although utilitarianism inspired wide-ranging reforms, it became primarily a justification for laissez-faire economics.

"However, classical liberals rejected Smith's belief that the "invisible hand" would lead to general benefits and embraced Malthus' view that population expansion would prevent any general benefit and Ricardo's view of the inevitability of class conflict. Laissez-faire was seen as the only possible economic approach and any government intervention was seen as useless and harmful.

"The Poor Law Amendment Act 1834 was defended on "scientific or economic principles" while the authors of the Elizabethan Poor Law of 1601 were seen as not having had the benefit of reading Malthus."
 
If the entire UK re-voted on leaving the EU, do you believe results would be different?
There would be a far larger vote to leave. A combination of the outrageous behaviour of Remoaner MPs, including Bercow, Gina Miller' interference, The Supreme Court's ripping up of our constitution and both the EU's attitude toward us and a better understanding of the EU have changed the minds of many people who voted Remain.

The second referendum some have advocated was not for a rerun but for a vote for remain or chose 'the deal that we have not yet negotiated'.

But, as we have seen, even if the whole of the UK voted leave - our main political bodies would do their damndest, by hook or by crook, breaking all the rules in the book, to stop us gaining our independence.
 
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Did Thatcher see herself as a classical liberal?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism#Political_economy

"Classical liberals saw utility as the foundation for public policies. This broke both with conservative 'tradition' and Lockean 'natural rights', which were seen as irrational. Utility, which emphasises the happiness of individuals, became the central ethical value of all liberalism.[80]

"Although utilitarianism inspired wide-ranging reforms, it became primarily a justification for laissez-faire economics.

"However, classical liberals rejected Smith's belief that the "invisible hand" would lead to general benefits and embraced Malthus' view that population expansion would prevent any general benefit and Ricardo's view of the inevitability of class conflict. Laissez-faire was seen as the only possible economic approach and any government intervention was seen as useless and harmful.

"The Poor Law Amendment Act 1834 was defended on "scientific or economic principles" while the authors of the Elizabethan Poor Law of 1601 were seen as not having had the benefit of reading Malthus."
Yes, welcome back George xxx

I have no idea what Thatcher thought of herself and would I want to? What ever she thought, to me, she was a foolish ( to be kind) destroyer - we still live with the legacy :( She closed down all of the Mental Hospitals and threw the patients out on the streets ( care in the community) she did the same with all of the hostels for homeless man and women. She began the privatization of NHS services - She hated local gov and carried on driving the bulldozer through them. There are other destructions from her time which I now realise were due EU Directives but she didn't help relieve any pains and she also saw to the end of Industry throwing millions out of work.


She did though try to curb mass immigration which Blair overturned because whatever ones ideology no gov can plan for huge numbers unknown.



It is an odd thing now, I've never voted Tory but shall this time for Boris's imperfect deal because there is no other - I keep finding myself on the same side, in arguments, with Thatcher admirers - it is an odd experience ;)
 
There would be a far larger vote to leave. A combination of the outrageous behaviour of Remoaner MPs, including Bercow, Gina Miller' interference, The Supreme Court's ripping up of our constitution and both the EU's attitude toward us and a better understanding of the EU have changed the minds of many people who voted Remain.

The second referendum some have advocated was not for a rerun but for a vote for remain or chose 'the deal that we have not yet negotiated'.

But, as we have seen, even if the whole of the UK voted leave - our main political bodies would do their damndest, by hook or by crook, breaking all the rules in the book, to stop us gaining our independence.
But, as we have seen, even if the whole of the UK voted leave - our main political bodies would do their damndest, by hook or by crook, breaking all the rules in the book, to stop us gaining our independence.
Apparently, national sovereignty is no longer an option?

Forty years ago, Brzezinski lured the Soviets into Afghanistan setting up the "End of History."

Since that time neoliberal economics and eternal war have conspired to diminish the concept of majority rule in favor of the "Divine Right of Capital." I suspect things will get worse long before they begin to improve?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Brzezinski#Afghanistan

"When asked if he regretted supporting Islamist groups in their fight against the Soviet Union, Brzezinski replied, 'What was more important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Muslims or the liberation of central Europe and the end of the Cold war?'"
 
Yes, welcome back George xxx

I have no idea what Thatcher thought of herself and would I want to? What ever she thought, to me, she was a foolish ( to be kind) destroyer - we still live with the legacy :( She closed down all of the Mental Hospitals and threw the patients out on the streets ( care in the community) she did the same with all of the hostels for homeless man and women. She began the privatization of NHS services - She hated local gov and carried on driving the bulldozer through them. There are other destructions from her time which I now realise were due EU Directives but she didn't help relieve any pains and she also saw to the end of Industry throwing millions out of work.


She did though try to curb mass immigration which Blair overturned because whatever ones ideology no gov can plan for huge numbers unknown.



It is an odd thing now, I've never voted Tory but shall this time for Boris's imperfect deal because there is no other - I keep finding myself on the same side, in arguments, with Thatcher admirers - it is an odd experience ;)
It is an odd thing now, I've never voted Tory but shall this time for Boris's imperfect deal because there is no other - I keep finding myself on the same side, in arguments, with Thatcher admirers - it is an odd experience
There is an identical experience happening here.
Throughout the cold war, Republicans were Russia's most severe critics.
Today they are defending a POTUS who likely would not be in office without Russian assistance.

McConnell is facing reelection in 2020, and if Trump goes down before next November, Mitch may well join him. As long as I have been alive (72 years). Republicans have blindly supported US defense and intelligence establishment. Trump has changed all that in three years, and I suspect it will be decades before anyone can explain why.
 
Apparently, national sovereignty is no longer an option?

Forty years ago, Brzezinski lured the Soviets into Afghanistan setting up the "End of History."

Since that time neoliberal economics and eternal war have conspired to diminish the concept of majority rule in favor of the "Divine Right of Capital." I suspect things will get worse long before they begin to improve?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Brzezinski#Afghanistan

"When asked if he regretted supporting Islamist groups in their fight against the Soviet Union, Brzezinski replied, 'What was more important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Muslims or the liberation of central Europe and the end of the Cold war?'"
No man is an island George but as far as us all running our own affairs, at home, our own way - I have not get quite given up hope.
 
No man is an island George but as far as us all running our own affairs, at home, our own way - I have not get quite given up hope.
No man is an island George but as far as us all running our own affairs, at home, our own way - I have not get quite given up hope
What percentage of your eligible voters actually cast a ballot in major elections?

In 2016 about four in ten eligible US voters didn't bother to vote.

I'm not sure what they are waiting for?
 
What percentage of your eligible voters actually cast a ballot in major elections?

In 2016 about four in ten eligible US voters didn't bother to vote.

I'm not sure what they are waiting for?
In the last years not that many. What difference does it make when we are ruled from Brussels? Coupled with the fact that people are completely disillusioned by politicos here. The largest turn out for a vote ever was for the referendum - I expect this next election to be quite large too - for the same reason.

Families have split over Brexit and we have all lost friends over it - Passions will be expressed in this election - as opposed to the same old same old being the same old Gov by a different name.

Corbyn's Labour as Gov is a frightening prospect - not because I do not believe in the aspects of socialism which we still have here - but he would flood the UK with Muslim immigrants and at the same time bankrupt us as Labour has been known to have done before. His manifesto is an ideological 17yr olds wet dream and pure Marxism.

Still can't call the result though - too many want to vote BP and could split the vote. Farage could well be the instigator of our losing our Brexit - oh the irony. They want to vote for Farage 'cos of what he says even though he is totally unproven. Never negotiated with a foreign power and never been in Parliament - let alone Gov.

And also - I live in what is normally a safe Tory seat BUT most people here voted Remain soooo the LibDems are a danger here. These sorts of divisions are seen all over the UK. -

What we are waiting for? The end of this torture - businesses can't plan - nor Gov - nor those who want to travel. The Cons and BP and DUP, if changes are made, want Brexit - LibDems and Labour, SNP, Green want Remain.
 
In the last years not that many. What difference does it make when we are ruled from Brussels? Coupled with the fact that people are completely disillusioned by politicos here. The largest turn out for a vote ever was for the referendum - I expect this next election to be quite large too - for the same reason.

Families have split over Brexit and we have all lost friends over it - Passions will be expressed in this election - as opposed to the same old same old being the same old Gov by a different name.

Corbyn's Labour as Gov is a frightening prospect - not because I do not believe in the aspects of socialism which we still have here - but he would flood the UK with Muslim immigrants and at the same time bankrupt us as Labour has been known to have done before. His manifesto is an ideological 17yr olds wet dream and pure Marxism.

Still can't call the result though - too many want to vote BP and could split the vote. Farage could well be the instigator of our losing our Brexit - oh the irony. They want to vote for Farage 'cos of what he says even though he is totally unproven. Never negotiated with a foreign power and never been in Parliament - let alone Gov.

And also - I live in what is normally a safe Tory seat BUT most people here voted Remain soooo the LibDems are a danger here. These sorts of divisions are seen all over the UK. -

What we are waiting for? The end of this torture - businesses can't plan - nor Gov - nor those who want to travel. The Cons and BP and DUP, if changes are made, want Brexit - LibDems and Labour, SNP, Green want Remain.
In the last years not that many. What difference does it make when we are ruled from Brussels? Coupled with the fact that people are completely disillusioned by politicos here. The largest turn out for a vote ever was for the referendum - I expect this next election to be quite large too - for the same reason.
Brussels or Berlin?

https://monthlyreview.org/2019/10/01/navigating-the-brexit-strait/?utm_source=MR+Email+List&utm_campaign=9e9253070a-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_MRONLINE_DAILY&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_4f879628ac-9e9253070a-295706873&mc_cid=9e9253070a&mc_eid=bc142f4d7a

"'Sovereignty,' in the view of Costas Lapavitsas, 'is jeopardised only when a state is forced to submit its will to that of another.'

"He further claims that 'Germany seeks to impose its will on others' through the European Union (EU)—the main challenge to sovereignty, and to democracy itself, that Lapavitsas highlights in Europe today.1

"At the core of Lapavitsas’s case for leaving the EU is the potential it unlocks for the reclaiming of sovereignty.

"Specifically in relation to Brexit—the United Kingdom leaving the EU—he argues that to 'leave could potentially open the door to nationalisation, public banking, a transformative industrial policy, income and wealth redistribution and the lifting of austerity.'

"Such policies would be impossible to implement within the (arguably German-forged) straitjacket of the EU single market because they would require a violation of the EU’s commitments to the free flow of goods, services, labor, and capital.2"

Do you see any possibility of public banking and the lifting of austerity if Brexit succeeds?
 
Brussels or Berlin?

https://monthlyreview.org/2019/10/01/navigating-the-brexit-strait/?utm_source=MR+Email+List&utm_campaign=9e9253070a-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_MRONLINE_DAILY&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_4f879628ac-9e9253070a-295706873&mc_cid=9e9253070a&mc_eid=bc142f4d7a

"'Sovereignty,' in the view of Costas Lapavitsas, 'is jeopardised only when a state is forced to submit its will to that of another.'

"He further claims that 'Germany seeks to impose its will on others' through the European Union (EU)—the main challenge to sovereignty, and to democracy itself, that Lapavitsas highlights in Europe today.1

"At the core of Lapavitsas’s case for leaving the EU is the potential it unlocks for the reclaiming of sovereignty.

"Specifically in relation to Brexit—the United Kingdom leaving the EU—he argues that to 'leave could potentially open the door to nationalisation, public banking, a transformative industrial policy, income and wealth redistribution and the lifting of austerity.'

"Such policies would be impossible to implement within the (arguably German-forged) straitjacket of the EU single market because they would require a violation of the EU’s commitments to the free flow of goods, services, labor, and capital.2"

Do you see any possibility of public banking and the lifting of austerity if Brexit succeeds?
Macron is now trying to replace Germany with France as top dog. Germany is in trouble.

John Redwood is one strong voice of the conscience of the Tory Party and he has been advocating ending austerity for ages - Boris has more than hinted at it - I think if Boris wins a majority he will try to ease up on it.

There is good and bad about both Parties but honestly Corbyn is just too too too extreme for your native British voter. We like a quite life and our politicos to just do their job and leave us in peace - but, in answer to your piece, Corbyn is talking about nationalization, among other things, again. He would have to buy everything back in the first place and nationalization, of such things as the railways, just eats away at the public purse. Corbyn wants to tax our gardens too btw! He wants to tax everything that moves to pay for his dream of making the Trot dream work ------------ I really do hope that this election makes done with Labour. They have lost the plot and betrayed their loyal working class base. We do need a decent opposition which is socialist leaning, if we keep this system, but Labour, as is, ain't it anymore.
 
Macron is now trying to replace Germany with France as top dog. Germany is in trouble.

John Redwood is one strong voice of the conscience of the Tory Party and he has been advocating ending austerity for ages - Boris has more than hinted at it - I think if Boris wins a majority he will try to ease up on it.

There is good and bad about both Parties but honestly Corbyn is just too too too extreme for your native British voter. We like a quite life and our politicos to just do their job and leave us in peace - but, in answer to your piece, Corbyn is talking about nationalization, among other things, again. He would have to buy everything back in the first place and nationalization, of such things as the railways, just eats away at the public purse. Corbyn wants to tax our gardens too btw! He wants to tax everything that moves to pay for his dream of making the Trot dream work ------------ I really do hope that this election makes done with Labour. They have lost the plot and betrayed their loyal working class base. We do need a decent opposition which is socialist leaning, if we keep this system, but Labour, as is, ain't it anymore.
Do you have any idea how a "hard Brexit" would affect your bank account?

On this side of the pond, there is more and more speculation as to what would happen to American budgets if (when) the US dollar loses its status as a global reserve currency.

Some believe it could double or triple the average Americans' food budget.

Could Brexit have a similar effect on your standard of living?
 
Do you have any idea how a "hard Brexit" would affect your bank account?

On this side of the pond, there is more and more speculation as to what would happen to American budgets if (when) the US dollar loses its status as a global reserve currency.

Some believe it could double or triple the average Americans' food budget.

Could Brexit have a similar effect on your standard of living?
No such thing as a hard or soft Brexit ---- that is Remoaner propaganda --- there is Leave or there is Remain.

To our living standards? My God I would wish that we went back to having one - as we did before the EU - but fear that to be impossible since few now can even exist without the credit which was introduced by the EU. Prices should fall though - yes - the EU is a horribly expensive protection racket, their prices massively inflated - It will take time though. Unlike joining, throwing our commonwealth into near bankruptcy in a day, untangling ourself will take at least a year.

Brexiteers don't actually care though - we have been through hard times before - it would be worth it.
 

EatTheRich

President
What percentage of your eligible voters actually cast a ballot in major elections?

In 2016 about four in ten eligible US voters didn't bother to vote.

I'm not sure what they are waiting for?
Waiting for a democracy, maybe? “If voting were allowed to change anything, then everyone would vote.”-James Harris
 
Waiting for a democracy, maybe? “If voting were allowed to change anything, then everyone would vote.”-James Harris
Waiting for a democracy, maybe? “If voting were allowed to change anything, then everyone would vote.”-James Harris
Some things are slow to change...

One would hope the 2016 "choice" between Trump or Clinton would have opened a few eyes to this obvious reality of US politics?

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Upton_Sinclair
 
No such thing as a hard or soft Brexit ---- that is Remoaner propaganda --- there is Leave or there is Remain.

To our living standards? My God I would wish that we went back to having one - as we did before the EU - but fear that to be impossible since few now can even exist without the credit which was introduced by the EU. Prices should fall though - yes - the EU is a horribly expensive protection racket, their prices massively inflated - It will take time though. Unlike joining, throwing our commonwealth into near bankruptcy in a day, untangling ourself will take at least a year.

Brexiteers don't actually care though - we have been through hard times before - it would be worth it.
To our living standards? My God I would wish that we went back to having one - as we did before the EU - but fear that to be impossible since few now can even exist without the credit which was introduced by the EU. Prices should fall though - yes - the EU is a horribly expensive protection racket, their prices massively inflated - It will take time though. Unlike joining, throwing our commonwealth into near bankruptcy in a day, untangling ourself will take at least a year.
Global protests from Chile to Iraq are beginning to worry some of the Masters of the Universe; perhaps Trump and Brexit will supply the passion needed to reverse the past forty years of wealth redistribution?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-protests-markets-graphic/global-protests-gaining-attention-in-financial-markets-idUSKBN1X326E

"LONDON (Reuters) - An alarming spread of street protests and civil unrest across the world in recent weeks looms large on the radar of financial markets, with investors wary the resulting pressures on stretched government finances will be one of many consequences."
 
Keep an eye out for Farage. As a one issue politician he may not actually want Brexit to go forward because then he's lost his one issue.

https://trends.gab.com/feed/5daf65b12fea4d3ba0008809/item/5dbc0f869f73354c0a3d8e07
And his job. He obviously desperately wants to make sure of a seat in Westminster if his EU one is over.

Yesterday he had Trump on his LBC chat show saying that Boris and Nigel should club together in this election - not good. We didn't like Obama interfering in our politics, it bodes not well when the US Prez puts his oar in. Nigel's tactics are not good - he is pressing Boris very hard to team up but ffs, as you say, his is a raggle taggle new one pony Party vs the Tories who have been established for nearly 200 years. For various reasons it is just not a good idea but he as taken a lot of politically unsophisticated leave voter in.

We don't know yet where he is going to stand candidates - in some Northern seats and Welsh seats where they will never vote Tory BP could take them - but if he places people in swing seats we could lose Brexit. But would anyone purposefully help Corbyn in? I doubt it ----- we could never recover from this Labour Party in No 10 because of teir open door immigration policy.

Nigel is right about the 'deal' not being as good as it should be though. Now it just depends on him how he plays it.
 
Global protests from Chile to Iraq are beginning to worry some of the Masters of the Universe; perhaps Trump and Brexit will supply the passion needed to reverse the past forty years of wealth redistribution?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-protests-markets-graphic/global-protests-gaining-attention-in-financial-markets-idUSKBN1X326E

"LONDON (Reuters) - An alarming spread of street protests and civil unrest across the world in recent weeks looms large on the radar of financial markets, with investors wary the resulting pressures on stretched government finances will be one of many consequences."
It is doubtful that there would be civil unrest here unless Brexit is really ever declared dead.

Boris's deal needs renegotiating or we leave without one for Brexit to make a real difference. We knew it wasn't going to be easy :)
 
Keep an eye out for Farage. As a one issue politician he may not actually want Brexit to go forward because then he's lost his one issue.

https://trends.gab.com/feed/5daf65b12fea4d3ba0008809/item/5dbc0f869f73354c0a3d8e07
Now look what he has done! Blackmail -

General election latest news: Nigel Farage pitches 'Leave Alliance' with Tories as Brexit Party launch campaign

Nigel Farage has offered Boris Johnson an electoral pact if he agrees to drop his Brexit deal and negotiate a new free trade deal.

Speaking at the Brexit Party's campaign launch, Mr Farage said he wanted to form a "Leave Alliance" with the Conservative Party in the next two weeks if Mr Johnson agrees to pull out of the agreement he has negotiated with the EU.

Mr Farage said his party would only run in around 150 Leave-voting Labour seats if the Tories agreed to a pact, but would run in every constituency in England, Scotland and Wales if they do not.

The Brexit Party leader did not rule out running as an MP himself, and said he would make a further announcement about his candidacy over the next two or three days.

He added that no formal talks had taken place between the parties, but said that some people in Downing Street, "in and around" Boris Johnson were in favour of an alliance.

The Tories have repeatedly rejected Mr Farage's calls for an electoral pact, and are unlikely to abandon the Brexit deal that Mr Johnson has negotiated.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/01/brexit-general-election-news-latest-boris-johnson-corbyn-trump/
 
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