Can a person be a good Christian & be mean spirited toward their fellowman?

[Old Ridge Runner]

I differ with your interpretation a bit. Now perhaps this is based on the fact that I am Jewish rather than Christian. But, as far as I know, neither Judaism nor Christianity says that the government should play NO ROLE in helping the weak and downtrodden and that helping the weak and downtrodden was SOLELY the province of Christian organizations or non-governmental charities. I think that you are correct that Christianity (and Judaism) do require believers to do more to help the weak and downtrodden than simply handing things over to the government. But that does not mean that they have to expect the government to have no role. To my mind, to the extent that the government (state, local, and Federal) play a role in helping the weak and downtrodden (and I think that they do), I do not begrudge or condemn their activity.

Well when one looks at the Bible (Holy Books) that Christ preached from at the time and than his teaching I think it is very clear. Remember, most folks don't even think of this. He taught from the Torah, the Old Testament. We must remember that the New Testament would not appear for a few more centuries and being raised Jewish that is the Holy Book he would have been taught from.

I am not implying that Christianity has the exclusive market on doing good for those in need, for Christ taught to care for the needy, the widow and the elderly and as I states above he grew up Jewish so where were thse concept first echoed and practiced but in the Jewish communities.

 

[JackDallas]

The current Liberal agenda in this country and the tenets of Christianity are diametrically opposed. A Liberal might call itself a Christian but no Christian would ever claim to be a Liberal.
Light and darkness cannot exist in the same entity.

 

[Old Ridge Runner]

Matt. 19:21 - Jesus said unto him, "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."

Where in the post of mine that you quoted did I say that Christians were perfect?

Yeah....but I like everything else about rural GA. Just not the "Conservative (Republican) first, so I'll reconcile my 'faith' to meandering conservative 'principles' " mindset that prevails here.

So you compromise your principles of faith because of the mindset of others, because you like where you live? How does that work out for you?

 

[lilly]

The current Liberal agenda in this country and the tenets of Christianity are diametrically opposed. A Liberal might call itself a Christian but no Christian would ever claim to be a Liberal.
Light and darkness cannot exist in the same entity.

Hi Jack, I don't understand this. Certainly even the word "liberal" that derives from the Latin liberalis ("generous") seems to me to the opposite of what you said. We are open minded and care for those less fortunate than we are and do offer help but expect after job training and a climate in the economy where they can get a job, to get back to work. Why would a Christian not want to be like the liberal I just mentioned?

Another thing that bugs the heck out of me is that cons think they own God. We have every bit as much ownership as a Republican, in fact maybe even more since we seem to understand what God is asking from us if we believe.

This is a generalization since I hate putting one group to a certain box to prove a point but I am saying in general this is how I see it.

 

[imreallyperplexed]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/no_kugel_for_you_N4VuTrqavfOiApSHngxuMJ

That was an interesting article. However, I will give you the Jewish perspective (because the people giving the donations were Orthodox jews). (Mayor Bloomberg is Jewish as well.) I happen to know that kosher food (which is what the Orthodox Jews were donating) is VERY salty. I know this because my late mother lived in a Jewish retirement home that served only kosher meals. She developed congestive heart failure and kidney problems both of which were much exacerbated by the kosher meals. She tried (and I helped) very hard to get the facility to offer "low salt" alternatives and the retirement home refused (and never really took her dietary/nutritional concerns seriously). She eventually moved (which was fine.) Nevertheless, I do know that many Orthodox Jews tend to downplay the high-salt aspects of fully kosher diets and the possible health consequences. Now, I have no problem with Orthodox Jews who want to keep strictly kosher making the choice to do that with full awareness of the possible consequences. And a lot of kosher food does taste good (as does fast food). And I have no doubt that those donations used to be permitted. Nevertheless, based on what was in the article, it sounds like the government agency had legitimate concerns about food safety and about the high salt nature of kosher food. BTW, the issue seemed to be about whether or not government facilities would accept any kind of donation. It was not directly aimed at religious groups. So I am not outraged (as you seem to be.)

As far as religion and government = the Sanhedrin + Herod + Pilate, and we know how that turned our for the Jewish folks of that day.

As far as "cooperation" and "corruption" is concerned, I suspect that we would analyze things a bit differently. But I do understand where you are coming from and what your concerns are.

On the Sanhedrin + Herod + Pilate, I have two comments. First, I would not generalize from that relationship to all links between religion and government. Second, Jews have a different understanding of the Sanhedrin, the Sadducces, the Pharisees, and the Scribes than I suspect that Christians do. Here is a link to a "New Testament" oriented focus on those groups.

http://www.brentcunningham.org/?p=290

Without going into detail, I can tell you that Jews are not especially interested in the Gospels or the New Testament as sacred books. Since Jews do not accept that Jesus was the son of God, the texts are not sacred and were never incorporated into the Jewish canon (which includes the Talmud - which is central to rabbinic civilization - as well as the Old Testament). In the blog above, the author talked about the "four hundred year gap." Jews have a much richer understanding of those four hundreds years and the nature of the Sanhedrin, the Sadduces, the Pharisees, the Scribes and the historic relationship between these groups and the subsequent rabbinic civilization centered around the Talmud. The appearance of Christianity in this context is acknowledged. But - for many Christianity was viewed as either a heretical sect or as an illegitimate adaptation of Judaism designed to appeal to pagans (primarily by St. Paul). Now, i do not think that Christianity is a heretical sect or an illegitimate adaptation of Judaism but I do know that in the cauldron of the Roman Empire for the four or five hundred years after Christ's death that that was a reality.

 

[Angel of Dearth]

Thanks, man. And easy does it on that "growing up" part. No rush.

 

[Jen]

That's exactly how we do it, or have you forgotten? This isn't the place for a discussion of mods though.

Fair enough. I wasn't asking for specifics. It just seems to me that ALL the moderators should strive to be evenhanded. LOC mods should be willing to call out LOC posters who cross the line and ROC mods should be willing to call out ROC posters who cross the line. What is good for the goose should be good for the gander. Do you disagree?

 

[Angel of Dearth]

How condescending of you, Jen!

To think that posters would want to discuss politics with out the hate filled lies of the posters from Ballot Box.

News flash here! There are many good boards that discuss politics with none of the mean spirited rants we see here.

Those boards have decent moderators who make it clear the name calling will not be tolerated.
None of us have to go to Christian boards as you put it.

Of course your post made it clear that losing one more left poster is no big deal. But, like BB when good posters get disgusted and leave, what will be left? For myself, I find it great to post on boards that have discussions and do not have to put up with the long standing grudges of the BB gang.

Wow. Wrong headed from top to bottom.

 

[JackDallas]

What GOOD Left poster did we lose?

 

[zzigzzag]

"Where in the post of mine that you quoted did I say that Christians were perfect?"

Nowhere. Where in my post did I suggest that you had?

So you compromise your principles of faith because of the mindset of others

And where did you get that? I haven't professed any faith in a damn thing.

Ask yourself why you can't even allow yourself read the actual words that are written when someone questions the disparity between conservative dogma and Jesus' teachings. Which principles do you believe in? Those of the Christian faith or those of the Republican party? They don't really resemble each other. Which is the path to heaven? Or have you eliminated "eternal reward" from your Christian beliefs? Is "he who dies with the most toys" now accepted as the measure for good, Christian thinking? It sure as hell is what pubs are selling to lost souls. "He who profits most by contributing least to our society is who we want in charge." Eh....y'all won't even have a Christian candidate, so it's moot anyway. Once again, a primary process manipulated by shameless hatemongers has resulted in foisting the nominee y'all wanted least upon you.

 

[Old Ridge Runner]

That was an interesting article. However, I will give you the Jewish perspective (because the people giving the donations were Orthodox jews). (Mayor Bloomberg is Jewish as well.) I happen to know that kosher food (which is what the Orthodox Jews were donating) is VERY salty. I know this because my late mother lived in a Jewish retirement home that served only kosher meals. She developed congestive heart failure and kidney problems both of which were much exacerbated by the kosher meals. She tried (and I helped) very hard to get the facility to offer "low salt" alternatives and the retirement home refused (and never really took her dietary/nutritional concerns seriously). She eventually moved (which was fine.) Nevertheless, I do know that many Orthodox Jews tend to downplay the high-salt aspects of fully kosher diets and the possible health consequences. Now, I have no problem with Orthodox Jews who want to keep strictly kosher making the choice to do that with full awareness of the possible consequences. And a lot of kosher food does taste good (as does fast food). And I have no doubt that those donations used to be permitted. Nevertheless, based on what was in the article, it sounds like the government agency had legitimate concerns about food safety and about the high salt nature of kosher food. BTW, the issue seemed to be about whether or not government facilities would accept any kind of donation. It was not directly aimed at religious groups. So I am not outraged (as you seem to be.)

I understand that kosher food is extremely salty, I like and eat it once in a great while but like fast food I have to watch my intake because of heart problems. However, if you were hungary (and I don't mean for your next daily meal) would you care how salty your food was or if you were going to get something to eat? Yet, government places atrificial guideline that they than enforce. When this food is stopped from being distributed to the hungary it doesn't help the health of the people, what it does is cause more hungar.

On the Sanhedrin + Herod + Pilate, I have two comments. First, I would not generalize from that relationship to all links between religion and government. Second, Jews have a different understanding of the Sanhedrin, the Sadducces, the Pharisees, and the Scribes than I suspect that Christians do. Here is a link to a "New Testament" oriented focus on those groups.

My point in showing that when religion and government walk in lock step it is the people who suffer. What I believe the Founding Fathers wanted to happen in the relationship with government and religion, was that the government's tendancy to oppress the people would be lessened by the influence of religion on the people who were elected to serve. What I don't think the Founding Fathers saw was the enormance falling away from religion that has happened in the relationship of people and religion.

Without going into detail, I can tell you that Jews are not especially interested in the Gospels or the New Testament as sacred books. Since Jews do not accept that Jesus was the son of God, the texts are not sacred and were never incorporated into the Jewish canon (which includes the Talmud - which is central to rabbinic civilization - as well as the Old Testament). In the blog above, the author talked about the "four hundred year gap." Jews have a much richer understanding of those four hundreds years and the nature of the Sanhedrin, the Sadduces, the Pharisees, the Scribes and the historic relationship between these groups and the subsequent rabbinic civilization centered around the Talmud. The appearance of Christianity in this context is acknowledged. But - for many Christianity was viewed as either a heretical sect or as an illegitimate adaptation of Judaism designed to appeal to pagans (primarily by St. Paul). Now, i do not think that Christianity is a heretical sect or an illegitimate adaptation of Judaism but I do know that in the cauldron of the Roman Empire for the four or five hundred years after Christ's death that that was a reality.

I know the feeling of the Jewish people toward the New Testament for the most part but that is not the insite of all of the Jewish people. Again, in mentioning the Sanhedrin was not to suggest that the Jewish priest were corrupt within themselves, but to show when those groups (government, religon and business) come together, they altimately corrupt one another. It is the opinion of most Christian scholars that after the Temple is rebuilt, the antichrist will come out of an alliance of this group of three. However, this bring us back in a full circle to who is best at the chariable aspect, and that I think is best left to the religious and those others who care about the plight of the poor, government should only be brought into the mix as a last resort because when government gets involved their are alway stipulations involved which leads to less being distributed to those in need. IMO, government shouldbe the last resort, not the first, except for thoses thisnk that the government is legally sanctioned to do within the context of the Constitution.

 

[Old Ridge Runner]

"Where in the post of mine that you quoted did I say that Christians were perfect?"

Nowhere. Where in my post did I suggest that you had?

So you compromise your principles of faith because of the mindset of others

And where did you get that? I haven't professed any faith in a damn thing.

Ask yourself why you can't even allow yourself read the actual words that are written when someone questions the disparity between conservative dogma and Jesus' teachings. Which principles do you believe in? Those of the Christian faith or those of the Republican party? They don't really resemble each other. Which is the path to heaven? Or have you eliminated "eternal reward" from your Christian beliefs? Is "he who dies with the most toys" now accepted as the measure for good, Christian thinking? It sure as hell is what pubs are selling to lost souls. "He who profits most by contributing least to our society is who we want in charge." Eh....y'all won't even have a Christian candidate, so it's moot anyway. Once again, a primary process manipulated by shameless hatermongers has resulted in foisting the nominee y'all wanted least upon you once again.

In your post #117, that's where. You insinuate in your posting of Matt 9:21, that somehow Christians think that they are perfect, which is far from the truth for the majority of most Christians.

Yeah....but I like everything else about rural GA. Just not the "Conservative (Republican) first, so I'll reconcile my 'faith' to meandering conservative 'principles' " mindset that prevails here.

Did you not write this?

 

[imreallyperplexed]

Ridge Runner,

On the NYC case, again, the mayor did not prevent the Orthodox community from distributing food to the homeless independent of the government facility. They just refused to accept the donations. Now, it may be that they used to accept the donations and decided that they would stop. Nonetheless, I doubt that the decision was made lightly. (BTW, it may actually be cheaper for the government facility NOT to accept donations because it is easier to organize "quality control." If the city decided to turn down donations because it actually saved money, would you have a problem with the decision?)

I understand that kosher food is extremely salty, I like and eat it once in a great while but like fast food I have to watch my intake because of heart problems. However, if you were hungary (and I don't mean for your next daily meal) would you care how salty your food was or if you were going to get something to eat? Yet, government places atrificial guideline that they than enforce. When this food is stopped from being distributed to the hungary it doesn't help the health of the people, what it does is cause more hungar.



My point in showing that when religion and government walk in lock step it is the people who suffer. What I believe the Founding Fathers wanted to happen in the relationship with government and religion, was that the government's tendancy to oppress the people would be lessened by the influence of religion on the people who were elected to serve. What I don't think the Founding Fathers saw was the enormance falling away from religion that has happened in the relationship of people and religion.



I know the feeling of the Jewish people toward the New Testament for the most part but that is not the insite of all of the Jewish people. Again, in mentioning the Sanhedrin was not to suggest that the Jewish priest were corrupt within themselves, but to show when those groups (government, religon and business) come together, they altimately corrupt one another. It is the opinion of most Christian scholars that after the Temple is rebuilt, the antichrist will come out of an alliance of this group of three. However, this bring us back in a full circle to who is best at the chariable aspect, and that I think is best left to the religious and those others who care about the plight of the poor, government should only be brought into the mix as a last resort because when government gets involved their are alway stipulations involved which leads to less being distributed to those in need. IMO, government shouldbe the last resort, not the first, except for thoses thisnk that the government is legally sanctioned to do within the context of the Constitution.

 

[zzigzzag]

How posting Matt 9:21 translates into me saying that Christians think they're perfect is beyond my comprehension.

Quite the opposite. It's Republicans who think their philosophy is perfect. I was curious about how that jives with being a good Christian. I think I was clear enough about that and that you're being obtuse for lack of a good answer. Where do I find the Bible verse that says, "Greed is good" or "people who need help are parasites" or "saturating the wealthiest is what's best for everyone"? Does Republican philosophy intersect with Christian ideals anywhere?

I find much less disparity between liberal ideals and Christianity and much less acrimony between citizens when they're applied.

W.F. Buckley is the Pope for conservative Christians. What y'all seem to miss is that his intention in formulating a philosophy for you was to help rich folks enjoy their opulence without conscience. He, of course, was most sympathetic to those who had inherited it....like him.

 

[Old Ridge Runner]

Ridge Runner,

On the NYC case, again, the mayor did not prevent the Orthodox community from distributing food to the homeless independent of the government facility. They just refused to accept the donations. Now, it may be that they used to accept the donations and decided that they would stop. Nonetheless, I doubt that the decision was made lightly. (BTW, it may actually be cheaper for the government facility NOT to accept donations because it is easier to organize "quality control." If the city decided to turn down donations because it actually saved money, would you have a problem with the decision?)

I hope you had a good Passover my friend.

Well I guess that you see it your way and I see it mine. I feel that if the mayor had not stuck his nose in it, the kitchens would have had more food to serve than they did after the mayor inserted his comments into the mix. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Old Ridge Runner]

How posting Matt 9:21 translates into me saying that Christians think they're perfect is beyond my comprehension.

Well apparently you were not as clear as you thought or I wouldn't have gotten the meddage that I got.

Quite the opposite. It's Republicans who think their philosophy is perfect. I was curious about how that jives with being a good Christian. I think I was clear enough about that and that you're being obtuse for lack of a good answer. Where do I find the Bible verse that says, "Greed is good" or "people who need help are parasites" or "saturating the wealthiest is what's best for everyone"? Does Republican philosophy intersect with Christian ideals anywhere?

I could say the same about the Democrats. And you see that you can read things into what I have posted that are not there. I never suggested that you stated that greed is good or that people who needed help were parasites.

 

[Sgt Staples]

I feel that if the mayor had not stuck his nose in it, the kitchens would have had more food to serve than they did after the mayor inserted his comments into the mix

That's exactly right. There ultimately was less food to help out people struggling through the tough time Obamanomics is creating.

You gotta love the mind of a liberal which believes in banning salt and legalizing heroin.

And these are the folks that want government controlled health care.

 

[imreallyperplexed]

Sarge,

As I indicated to Ridge Runner above, salt helped to kill my mother. Heroin didn't.

You can take your "liberal mind" and stuff it up your backside.

That's exactly right. There ultimately was less food to help out people struggling through the tough time Obamanomics is creating.

You gotta love the mind of a liberal which believes in banning salt and legalizing heroin.

And these are the folks that want government controlled health care.

 

[imreallyperplexed]

Thanks! And a happy Easter to you.

We can agree to disagree. BTW, I might change my mind about the food donations. However, I would have to know more about the reasoning that went into the decision. Obviously, you want to have as much good food as possible within "reasonable" safety, health, and budget issues. I really don't think that you would want people eating rotten or unhealthy food. You also would not want the city to take donations if it made providing the needed food more - rather than less - expensive. (You need to factor in the total cost of providing food services. That is more costly than just the cost of the food itself.) And I do want the poor to be feed as cheaply and as well as humanly possible. So our goals are probably pretty similar.

I hope you had a good Passover my friend.

Well I guess that you see it your way and I see it mine. I feel that if the mayor had not stuck his nose in it, the kitchens would have had more food to serve than they did after the mayor inserted his comments into the mix. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Sgt Staples]

As I indicated to Ridge Runner above, salt helped to kill my mother. Heroin didn't.

Depends on the person. The salt level in my blood at my last physical was slightly below the minimum recommended. That's why government should stay out of it and let each person decide for himself.

And it never heard of anyone getting arrested for driving under the influence of salt.

And yes, liberals want to either ban or tax out of existence salt and sugar and soda and happy meals and everything else they deem is bad for us. They need to quit poking their noses in everybody's business.

Just 'cause liberals are miserable doesn't give them the right to make everyone else miserable too.

Live your lives and quit trying to mess with ours.

As I said, only screwy people would propose banning salt and legalizing the big H.

Whattabuncha messed up people.