Christianity is at War

[EatTheRich]

I never said that or even thought it.

Yes you did. You said that the fact that people who are Democrats don't feel like they need to pretend to be Christians (e.g., be Christians in public) means that your religion is under attack.

 

[Jen]

Yes you did. You said that the fact that people who are Democrats don't feel like they need to pretend to be Christians (e.g., be Christians in public) means that your religion is under attack.

The Democratic Party has moved away from Christianity. Obama mocked Christians clinging to their "Bibles and guns". It's a choice. And it has been made.

 

[Caroljo]

Have you actually read the Book of Revelation, are are you going with the pop culture version? Needless to say, the actual book doesn't look like how things are today. There would have to be a great earthquake resulting in the sun turning as black as sack cloth and the moon turning the color of blood. The stars would have to fall to Earth, too -- which, obviously, if even one of them did would complete evaporate the planet long before it even got close.... the whole vision of all the stars falling to Earth only makes sense to the imagination of a primitive people who have no idea what stars are. Also, every mountain should be out of place and people should be hiding in caves, and there should be a seven-headed leopard beast and a dragon, and so on.

As for the absence of hunger, yes, you're right, that's a first world thing. It's in the first world that the presence of theism seems most bizarre. I can see people in the third world, suffering as they do, clinging to religion, with so little else to cling to.

So you know what the end times is supposed to look like? What you described is the Tribulation, I'm talking about the end times. What we're in is the lead up to it. All that I said, plus the fact that we are seeing how truth is now false and anything false is now true, what was evil is now good and anything good is now evil, children will not honor their parents. All these things (and many more) we were told to watch for. These things are happening now.

 

[Arkady]

I couldn't care less about the other religions. I'm a Christian first and foremost. The Muslim religion is the exact opposite of what I believe in. If a religion doesn't believe that Jesus is the Son of God, came to earth to teach and died for all our sins, then I really don't care. Shariah is the polar opposite of what Jesus taught. No religion of faith are off limits. You have a right to say what you want about it. It's my right to point out where you're wrong. One day you'll know the truth....I just hope for your sake you figure it out before it's too late.

The question was whether you regard it as persecution in both directions or only where directed at you.

Also, I think if you were to list out all the tenets of your faith you'd find Islam is far from an opposite religion. You both believe in a single God, for example,and an afterlife where people are rewarded or punished, and various rules against things like extramarital sex, etc.

 

[Arkady]

John had a vision of some future event or events. He wrote about that vision using the words and understanding.

What John wrote is symbolic. So, 1/3 of the "stars". What if one third of our satellites we have forming a grid around the earth to keep us connected were suddenly wiped away?

We don't know what to expect, but people then had visions that describe things we see now. A helicopter is described in the Bible. Mountains have been known to explode in eruption. And some of the vehicles we have now would be described as beasts by those who had no knowledge of them.

What we don't know is whether the book of Revelation prophecies have already occurred or will occur. And of course, some people don't believe in the Bible at all.

I have read a half a dozen books on Revelation and I have read Revelation each of those times and more. I still don't understand it, but I certainly won't poo-poo it or mock what is said there. That wouldn't be wise.

If you interpret the book that loosely, then any time in human history could be described as meeting the description of the Book of Revelation. The same with any other end-times prophecy.

 

[Arkady]

So you know what the end times is supposed to look like? What you described is the Tribulation, I'm talking about the end times. What we're in is the lead up to it. All that I said, plus the fact that we are seeing how truth is now false and anything false is now true, what was evil is now good and anything good is now evil, children will not honor their parents. All these things (and many more) we were told to watch for. These things are happening now.

Which specific verses from the book do you see playing out today?

 

[middleview]

Remember the time that Pastors got together and laid hands on Obama to pray for him? No? Me either! Probably because they knew he lied about being a Christian.

I guess if you ignore the 10 commandments or even biblical quotes from Jesus about things like bearing false witness or how to treat your neighbor...anyone can claim to be a Christian without really being one....Eh Caroljo?

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

 

[Caroljo]

The question was whether you regard it as persecution in both directions or only where directed at you.

Also, I think if you were to list out all the tenets of your faith you'd find Islam is far from an opposite religion. You both believe in a single God, for example,and an afterlife where people are rewarded or punished, and various rules against things like extramarital sex, etc.

Christians aren't taught to kill people that break the laws as Islam is. We don't (unless it's some nutjob that says they're Christian) execute or imprison someone because they're gay. WE are taught to love everyone. We love the person, just not the sin. But we don't murder someone because of their sin! We don't expect to get 27 virgins when we die. We follow the 10 commandments (thou shalt not kill). There's a huge difference!

 

[Caroljo]

Which specific verses from the book do you see playing out today?

Here you go.....
http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/3-2.htm

 

[Jen]

The question was whether you regard it as persecution in both directions or only where directed at you.

Also, I think if you were to list out all the tenets of your faith you'd find Islam is far from an opposite religion. You both believe in a single God, for example,and an afterlife where people are rewarded or punished, and various rules against things like extramarital sex, etc.

Caroljo answered the second part of your post beautifully.

Let me comment on the first part. I regard it as persecution when one religion (Islam) is protected, Muslims are given special time and places to do their many daily prayers, Islam is taught in schools to the point of having children pretend to be Muslim for a day and act out the prayers of Muslims.....................while any expression of Christianity is forbidden. People have been shamed, sued, or otherwise treated harshly for even a silent moment which "might" be a prayer. Teachers can allow Muslim prayers but cannot institute a moment of silence in the classroom. Student speakers may NOT mention prayer or God in their graduation speeches.

What I would call for is exactly the same treatment for all religions. If Christians cannot pray during work, in public ceremonies, or in school...........then neither can Muslims or people of any other religions. Treat it equal.

As to the second part - all religions have commonalities. It's their differences that make them distinctive. Listing their commonalities does not prove that their gods are the same.

 

[Caroljo]

I guess if you ignore the 10 commandments or even biblical quotes from Jesus about things like bearing false witness or how to treat your neighbor...anyone can claim to be a Christian without really being one....Eh Caroljo?

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Yes, we will be judged just as we've judged others. However, He also told us to be "discerning". When I state I don't believe someone is a Christian, it's because of the way that person leads his/her life and how he/she speaks. We were also told there will be many false prophets through our life times...we've seen them. We've seen how they use people for their own profit. Also, it's only false witness if you know something you say is not true about another person.

http://www.christianity.com/theology/what-is-biblical-discernment-and-why-is-it-important-11532182.html

 

[Arkady]

Christians aren't taught to kill people that break the laws as Islam is.

Actually, that depends entirely how you read the scriptures of Christianity and of Islam. Why do you think that for most of the 2000 years of Christianity's existence people were killed by authorities with express reference to the Bible? Near my home, new monument just went up memorializing one such event:

325 years ago, a whole bunch of people were killed by devout Christians who'd been taught, in no uncertain terms, one of the faith's commandments:

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.​

The Bible is full of death sentences for all manner of violations of religious law, from serious to trivial. For example, a child who talked back to his parents was supposed to be taken to the village gates and then everyone in the village was supposed to throw rocks at the kid until he was dead. It's a brutal religion.

But, like all religions, you can also interpret it very differently, by putting focus elsewhere. You can jump through various mental hoops to allow an a la carte approach to scriptures, and thereby excuse yourself from having to murder people whom the scriptures clearly insist should be murdered. Many Muslims do the same thing.

If you want an eye-opener, take a look at the list of states that impose the death penalty, and then a list of states by level of religiosity. The least religious states in the US (ranked by the percent who told pollsters that religion is "very important" or at least "somewhat important") are VT, NH, MA, ME, WA, CT, MT, OR, AK, and NY. Of those, six out of ten have no death penalty. At the other end, the highest religiosity is in AL, LA, TN, MS, OK, TX, KY, AR, WV, and SC. Of those only one out of ten has no death penalty.

What do you make of that? Why are the secular states six times more likely not to allow killing people who break the law than the religious states? Whatever the answer, it clearly isn't about Islam, since it's an insignificant minority in those death-loving religious states. They all have large Christian majorities, with most being evangelical protestant majorities. In fact, the very large majority of executions in the US, since 1976, have happened in the South, which is the most fervently Christian part of the country.

 

[middleview]

John had a vision of some future event or events. He wrote about that vision using the words and understanding.

What John wrote is symbolic. So, 1/3 of the "stars". What if one third of our satellites we have forming a grid around the earth to keep us connected were suddenly wiped away?

We don't know what to expect, but people then had visions that describe things we see now. A helicopter is described in the Bible. Mountains have been known to explode in eruption. And some of the vehicles we have now would be described as beasts by those who had no knowledge of them.

What we don't know is whether the book of Revelation prophecies have already occurred or will occur. And of course, some people don't believe in the Bible at all.

I have read a half a dozen books on Revelation and I have read Revelation each of those times and more. I still don't understand it, but I certainly won't poo-poo it or mock what is said there. That wouldn't be wise.

1/3 of the stars? Maybe he is talking about "movie stars" falling from grace...Yeah, that's it...Where is a helicopter discussed?

 

[middleview]

Yes, we will be judged just as we've judged others. However, He also told us to be "discerning". When I state I don't believe someone is a Christian, it's because of the way that person leads his/her life and how he/she speaks. We were also told there will be many false prophets through our life times...we've seen them. We've seen how they use people for their own profit. Also, it's only false witness if you know something you say is not true about another person.

http://www.christianity.com/theology/what-is-biblical-discernment-and-why-is-it-important-11532182.html

Obama has said he is a Christian. You certainly are not in a position to judge his Christianity, yet you are calling him a liar. I do not think that is very Christian of you.
Obama has never claimed to be a prophet, but I would say he appears to be a good husband (ie...doesn't run around on his wife, doesn't speak in abusive terms of women, has not conducted himself in a dishonorable manner...like roaming around a dressing room leering at partially dressed young women) and he also seems to be a good dad.

By all means, what has Obama said or done that makes you think he is not a Christian?

 

[Queen Titania]

Actually, that depends entirely how you read the scriptures of Christianity and of Islam. Why do you think that for most of the 2000 years of Christianity's existence people were killed by authorities with express reference to the Bible? Near my home, new monument just went up memorializing one such event:

325 years ago, a whole bunch of people were killed by devout Christians who'd been taught, in no uncertain terms, one of the faith's commandments:

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.​

The Bible is full of death sentences for all manner of violations of religious law, from serious to trivial. For example, a child who talked back to his parents was supposed to be taken to the village gates and then everyone in the village was supposed to throw rocks at the kid until he was dead. It's a brutal religion.

But, like all religions, you can also interpret it very differently, by putting focus elsewhere. You can jump through various mental hoops to allow an a la carte approach to scriptures, and thereby excuse yourself from having to murder people whom the scriptures clearly insist should be murdered. Many Muslims do the same thing.

If you want an eye-opener, take a look at the list of states that impose the death penalty, and then a list of states by level of religiosity. The least religious states in the US (ranked by the percent who told pollsters that religion is "very important" or at least "somewhat important") are VT, NH, MA, ME, WA, CT, MT, OR, AK, and NY. Of those, six out of ten have no death penalty. At the other end, the highest religiosity is in AL, LA, TN, MS, OK, TX, KY, AR, WV, and SC. Of those only one out of ten has no death penalty.

What do you make of that? Why are the secular states six times more likely not to allow killing people who break the law than the religious states? Whatever the answer, it clearly isn't about Islam, since it's an insignificant minority in those death-loving religious states. They all have large Christian majorities, with most being evangelical protestant majorities. In fact, the very large majority of executions in the US, since 1976, have happened in the South, which is the most fervently Christian part of the country.

Because when the Temples were usurped, and the reason why the Temples were usurped, where to fundamentalise the realm of the uncontrollable spirituality of man - to rule by 'I see what is in your mind' rather than by the sword - Within though still sits remnants of what was the spirituality of man - thus the contradiction in both Christianity and Islam - but Islam is much more complex because 'The Book' is the word of God and unless taken as a whole is false - for it was written as an intellectual/philosophical answer to literalist Christianity.

 

[middleview]

Here you go.....
http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/3-2.htm

Yeah, that is certainly unique to 2017.....

 

[middleview]

The Democratic Party has moved away from Christianity. Obama mocked Christians clinging to their "Bibles and guns". It's a choice. And it has been made.

Obama did not mock Christians. He spoke accurately about how the people in small towns in rust belt America were betrayed by their employers, their unions and their politicians. I've lived in that part of the country and what he said was spot on. Those people do not trust outsiders, do not trust political leaders and do not believe their lives will ever recover to the days when steel mills, factories and coal mines provided the economic life blood of their communities, in spite of the promises they hear regularly.

 

[Caroljo]

Obama has said he is a Christian. You certainly are not in a position to judge his Christianity, yet you are calling him a liar. I do not think that is very Christian of you.
Obama has never claimed to be a prophet, but I would say he appears to be a good husband (ie...doesn't run around on his wife, doesn't speak in abusive terms of women, has not conducted himself in a dishonorable manner...like roaming around a dressing room leering at partially dressed young women) and he also seems to be a good dad.

By all means, what has Obama said or done that makes you think he is not a Christian?

Being a good person does not mean you're going to heaven. It also doesn't prove you're a Christian. Obama speaks more highly of the Islamic faith than he ever has about Christian faith. The Islamic call to prayer he says is the most beautiful thing he's ever heard. Yet Islam hates Christianity, they believe in murdering homosexuals, they call anyone not of their faith infidels.

 

[Arkady]

Because when the Temples were usurped, and the reason why the Temples were usurped, where to fundamentalise the realm of the uncontrollable spirituality of man - to rule by 'I see what is in your mind' rather than by the sword - Within though still sits remnants of what was the spirituality of man - thus the contradiction in both Christianity and Islam - but Islam is much more complex because 'The Book' is the word of God and unless taken as a whole is false - for it was written as an intellectual/philosophical answer to literalist Christianity.

Both Christianity and Islam allow for the entire range of readings of their texts from the most poetic to the most literalist. A theologian can (and some have) argued that the Christian Bible must be taken as a whole or it is false. After all, Jesus very plainly said that not one jot of the law would fall away. Thus, if you ignore just one jot, in the entire Bible, you're saying Jesus was wrong. And if Jesus can be wrong, how can you know that anything he said was right?

 

[Caroljo]

Yeah, that is certainly unique to 2017.....

No, it's not 'unique'....but it is much more prevalent today than it's ever been....and it's just going to get worse.