Christianity is at War

[Jen]

1/3 of the stars? Maybe he is talking about "movie stars" falling from grace...Yeah, that's it...Where is a helicopter discussed?

The point I was making is that since the book is symbolic, maybe we need to expand what we are thinking of as "stars".
Here is the helicopter reference. "Helicopter" might not be the exact assumption but some flying vehicle would be an appropriate thought:

Verse 16. - Like unto the colour of a beryl. The Hebrew for "beryl" (tarshish) suggests that the stone was called, like the turquoise, from the region which produced it. Here and in Daniel 10:6 the LXX. leaves it untranslated. In Exodus 28:20 we find χρυσόλιθος; in Ezekiel 10:9 and Ezekiel 28:13 ἄνθραξ, i.e. carbuncle. It is obvious, from this variety of renderings, that the stone was not easily identified. Probably it was of a red or golden color, suggesting the thought of fire rather than the pale green of the aquamarine or beryl (see especially Daniel 10:6). They four had one likeness, etc. A closer gaze led the prophet to see that there was a plurality in the unity. For the one "wheel" we have four; perhaps, as some have thought, two wheels intersecting at right angles, perhaps, one, probably seen behind, perhaps also below, each of the living creatures. They are not said actually to rest upon it, and the word "chariot" is not used as it is in 1 Chronicles 28:18. They would seem rather to have hovered over the wheels, moving simultaneously and in full accord with them. The "wheels" obviously represent the forces and laws that sustain the manifold forms of life represented by the "living creatures" and the "Spirit." In each case the number four is, as elsewhere, the symbol of completeness. A wheel in the midst of (within, Revised Version) a wheel; i.e. with an inner and outer circumference, the space between the two forming the "ring" or felloe of ver. 18.

 

[Arkady]

The Islamic call to prayer he says is the most beautiful thing he's ever heard.

No, he didn't say that. Conservatives, especially Christian conservatives, are fundamentally dishonest people, so they can be counted on to misquote what he said, deliberately. His actual statement only included that as "one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset."

Imagine I tell a coworker she's "one of my favorite people at work." Is that the same as saying she's my favorite person I've ever met? Do the two qualifiers in the sentence matter? Obviously, yes. If she were the favorite person I'd ever met, it would give her supremacy over my parents, my wife, my child, my best friend, etc. In the same way, Obama's qualifiers matter. And the dishonest Christian conservatives know they do, which is why they always pointedly leave the qualifiers out.

 

[Arkady]

The point I was making is that since the book is symbolic, maybe we need to expand what we are thinking of as "stars".
Here is the helicopter reference. "Helicopter" might not be the exact assumption but some flying vehicle would be an appropriate thought:

Verse 16. - Like unto the colour of a beryl. The Hebrew for "beryl" (tarshish) suggests that the stone was called, like the turquoise, from the region which produced it. Here and in Daniel 10:6 the LXX. leaves it untranslated. In Exodus 28:20 we find χρυσόλιθος; in Ezekiel 10:9 and Ezekiel 28:13 ἄνθραξ, i.e. carbuncle. It is obvious, from this variety of renderings, that the stone was not easily identified. Probably it was of a red or golden color, suggesting the thought of fire rather than the pale green of the aquamarine or beryl (see especially Daniel 10:6). They four had one likeness, etc. A closer gaze led the prophet to see that there was a plurality in the unity. For the one "wheel" we have four; perhaps, as some have thought, two wheels intersecting at right angles, perhaps, one, probably seen behind, perhaps also below, each of the living creatures. They are not said actually to rest upon it, and the word "chariot" is not used as it is in 1 Chronicles 28:18. They would seem rather to have hovered over the wheels, moving simultaneously and in full accord with them. The "wheels" obviously represent the forces and laws that sustain the manifold forms of life represented by the "living creatures" and the "Spirit." In each case the number four is, as elsewhere, the symbol of completeness. A wheel in the midst of (within, Revised Version) a wheel; i.e. with an inner and outer circumference, the space between the two forming the "ring" or felloe of ver. 18.

That can't be a helicopter, since it describes a wheel intersecting a wheel.

Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel.​

If a helicopter's rotors intersected, they'd collide and it would blow itself apart. A wheel intersecting a wheel sounds like a gear system. Plus, those wheels are supposed to be next to creatures with four faces (lion, ox, eagle, and human). And the wheels are supposed to have high rims full of eyes. And the wheels aren't supposed to change direction when the creatures do. And the wheels were supposed to be moved by the spirit of the creatures being in them. And the creatures flew with the use of wings, not the wheels (the wings are referenced in verses 23 and 24.

 

[Caroljo]

No, he didn't say that. Conservatives, especially Christian conservatives, are fundamentally dishonest people, so they can be counted on to misquote what he said, deliberately. His actual statement only included that as "one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset."

Imagine I tell a coworker she's "one of my favorite people at work." Is that the same as saying she's my favorite person I've ever met? Do the two qualifiers in the sentence matter? Obviously, yes. If she were the favorite person I'd ever met, it would give her supremacy over my parents, my wife, my child, my best friend, etc. In the same way, Obama's qualifiers matter. And the dishonest Christian conservatives know they do, which is why they always pointedly leave the qualifiers out.

So? It's the same thing....symantics!

Obama has done nothing but put down the Christian beliefs, while trying to make Islam out to be the perfect religion. You're blind. Or, you just won't let yourself admit he's a fake. He believes there are many paths to God. That is a lie. There is only ONE way to the Father, and that's through his Son Jesus Christ. Muslims don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

[Queen Titania]

Both Christianity and Islam allow for the entire range of readings of their texts from the most poetic to the most literalist. A theologian can (and some have) argued that the Christian Bible must be taken as a whole or it is false. After all, Jesus very plainly said that not one jot of the law would fall away. Thus, if you ignore just one jot, in the entire Bible, you're saying Jesus was wrong. And if Jesus can be wrong, how can you know that anything he said was right?

Christ was the Jewish Mystery/Gnostic man/god - his Goddess was Sophia. When Rome could no longer cope with the protesting Mystics, teachers, scholars coming out of the Temples they took one 'religion' as their State 'Religion'. It was the dogma of displaced peoples who had lost their teachers and had translated myth into the humourless literal - then they mingled Mithras and Dionysus with Jesus and lost the Goddess Sophia 'the lamp who lit our way'. They chopped away at the true crafted stories of Christianity - over time - and finally added on the very book, the Jewish Testaments, that the real Christians had been taking the piss out of ----------------- Islam was written in answer to this new 'un-free thinking' form of religion - it you put them together side by side you get - violence - peace - peace - violence. They are philosophy.

 

[Arkady]

So? It's the same thing....symantics!

No. It's a very different thing. And that's why the dishonest Christian conservatives can be counted on to provide the fabricated statement, rather than the real one. They KNOW it's a very different thing, and want to trick people into thinking he said something he didn't say.

Obama has done nothing but put down the Christian beliefs, while trying to make Islam out to be the perfect religion.

Actually, Obama showed his clear preference for Christianity over Islam by choosing the Christian faith as his own, regularly attending a Christian church, and raising his daughters in the faith. He may not share your visceral hatred of Muslims, but his preference for Christianity is obvious to a neutral observer like me.

 

[middleview]

Christians aren't taught to kill people that break the laws as Islam is. We don't (unless it's some nutjob that says they're Christian) execute or imprison someone because they're gay. WE are taught to love everyone. We love the person, just not the sin. But we don't murder someone because of their sin! We don't expect to get 27 virgins when we die. We follow the 10 commandments (thou shalt not kill). There's a huge difference!

Christians murdered about 6 million Jews from 1939 to 1945. Did you forget?

Up until a few years ago we did imprison gays for sodomy.

Your hatred for Obama hasn't been all that well hidden, yet now you claim to love everyone.

 

[Arkady]

Christ was the Jewish Mystery/Gnostic man/god - his Goddess was Sophia.

We can't be sure there even was an historical Jesus. But, the best guess is there was one, and that he was a Jew, and as such was a monotheist who worshiped Yahweh. What makes you think his goddess was Sophia?

 

[middleview]

So? It's the same thing....symantics!

Obama has done nothing but put down the Christian beliefs, while trying to make Islam out to be the perfect religion. You're blind. Or, you just won't let yourself admit he's a fake. He believes there are many paths to God. That is a lie. There is only ONE way to the Father, and that's through his Son Jesus Christ. Muslims don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

Really? Nothing but put down Christian beliefs?

From the Christmas Tree lighting ceremony in Washington on Dec. 2, 2011

“More than 2,000 years ago, a child was born to two faithful travelers who could find rest only in a stable, among the cattle and the sheep. But this was not just any child. Christ’s birth made the angels rejoice and attracted shepherds and kings from afar. He was a manifestation of God’s love for us.

“And he grew up to become a leader with a servant’s heart who taught us a message as simple as it is powerful: that we should love God, and love our neighbor as ourselves. That teaching has come to encircle the globe. No matter who we are, or where we come from, or how we worship, it’s a message that can unite all of us on this holiday season.”

From an Easter Prayer Breakfast on April 19, 2011 at the White House

“I wanted to host this breakfast for a simple reason — because as busy as we are, as many tasks as pile up, during this season, we are reminded that there’s something about the resurrection — something about the resurrection of our savior, Jesus Christ, that puts everything else in perspective.

“We all live in the hustle and bustle of our work. And everybody in this room has weighty responsibilities, from leading churches and denominations, to helping to administer important government programs, to shaping our culture in various ways. And I admit that my plate has been full as well. The inbox keeps on accumulating.

“But then comes Holy Week. The triumph of Palm Sunday. The humility of Jesus washing the disciples’ feet. His slow march up that hill, and the pain and the scorn and the shame of the cross. And we’re reminded that in that moment, he took on the sins of the world — past, present and future — and he extended to us that unfathomable gift of grace and salvation through his death and resurrection.”

From the National Prayer Breakfast on Feb. 3, 2011

“And like all of us, my faith journey has had its twists and turns. It hasn’t always been a straight line. I have thanked God for the joys of parenthood and Michelle’s willingness to put up with me. In the wake of failures and disappointments I’ve questioned what God had in store for me and been reminded that God’s plans for us may not always match our own short-sighted desires.

“And let me tell you, these past two years, they have deepened my faith. The presidency has a funny way of making a person feel the need to pray. Abe Lincoln said, as many of you know, ‘I have been driven to my knees many times by the overwhelming conviction that I had no place else to go.’”

From an Easter Prayer Breakfast on April 6, 2010 at the White House

“For even after the passage of 2,000 years, we can still picture the moment in our mind’s eye. The young man from Nazareth marched through Jerusalem; object of scorn and derision and abuse and torture by an empire. The agony of crucifixion amid the cries of thieves. The discovery, just three days later, that would forever alter our world — that the Son of Man was not to be found in his tomb and that Jesus Christ had risen.

“We are awed by the grace he showed even to those who would have killed him. We are thankful for the sacrifice he gave for the sins of humanity. And we glory in the promise of redemption in the resurrection.”

From the National Prayer Breakfast on Feb. 6, 2009

“I was not raised in a particularly religious household. I had a father who was born a Muslim but became an atheist, grandparents who were non-practicing Methodists and Baptists, and a mother who was skeptical of organized religion, even as she was the kindest, most spiritual person I’ve ever known. She was the one who taught me as a child to love, and to understand, and to do unto others as I would want done.

“I didn’t become a Christian until many years later, when I moved to the South Side of Chicago after college. It happened not because of indoctrination or a sudden revelation, but because I spent month after month working with church folks who simply wanted to help neighbors who were down on their luck no matter what they looked like, or where they came from, or who they prayed to. It was on those streets, in those neighborhoods, that I first heard God’s spirit beckon me. It was there that I felt called to a higher purpose — His purpose.”

 

[Queen Titania]

We can't be sure there even was an historical Jesus. But, the best guess is there was one, and that he was a Jew, and as such was a monotheist who worshiped Yahweh. What makes you think his goddess was Sophia?

There was no Jesus - he was a man/god - a man/god literalized - allegory became fact -

I spent time on faith based and decided to search for 'this Jesus' - spent much time and many angry tears on 'this Jesus' and his lost Goddess Sophia.

Shame the archives are gone. I haven't the umph to go through it all again now -

I'll give you a clue though ---------- The Gnostics came first.

 

[middleview]

No. It's a very different thing. And that's why the dishonest Christian conservatives can be counted on to provide the fabricated statement, rather than the real one. They KNOW it's a very different thing, and want to trick people into thinking he said something he didn't say.



Actually, Obama showed his clear preference for Christianity over Islam by choosing the Christian faith as his own, regularly attending a Christian church, and raising his daughters in the faith. He may not share your visceral hatred of Muslims, but his preference for Christianity is obvious to a neutral observer like me.

Christian leaders have taken a page from the history books and learned that the way to unite their followers is to construct a threat. Hammer it home every single change you get. "We are in danger"....."We must stand together against the enemy"...."send money".....

If you do not believe that message it is because you have no faith.

 

[Queen Titania]

Disagreed. Islam and Christianity are very similar ... Islam, for example, also teaches that Jesus was sent to earth to teach, and sharia is very similar to the kashrut laws of the Bible.

Same sources.

 

[Caroljo]

Christians murdered about 6 million Jews from 1939 to 1945. Did you forget?

Up until a few years ago we did imprison gays for sodomy.

Your hatred for Obama hasn't been all that well hidden, yet now you claim to love everyone.

I've never said I hated Obama....I hate what he stands for. "Christians" did not murder 6M Jews! Lol! I'd think you'd know this fact. The actual number of Jews murdered were way less than what you want to spread. Not saying 6M people weren't killed, but they were from different countries and all walks of life that the Nazi's disagreed with. They were much closer to being like Islam than they were being Christians. As we know, anyone can say they're a Christian. Nazi's were not. President Carter calls himself a Christian too, and I'm sure he's a good man, yet he hates the Jews (God's chosen people). He would have fit right in with the Nazi's.

 

[middleview]

I've never said I hated Obama....I hate what he stands for. "Christians" did not murder 6M Jews! Lol! I'd think you'd know this fact. The actual number of Jews murdered were way less than what you want to spread. Not saying 6M people weren't killed, but they were from different countries and all walks of life that the Nazi's disagreed with. They were much closer to being like Islam than they were being Christians. As we know, anyone can say they're a Christian. Nazi's were not. President Carter calls himself a Christian too, and I'm sure he's a good man, yet he hates the Jews (God's chosen people). He would have fit right in with the Nazi's.

1. Somehow I'm not surprised that you are a Holocaust denier.
2. The actual difference in the Jewish population of Europe was about 6 million by 1946.
3. The Nazis were either Lutheran or Catholic. The Nazi government mandated tithes. You were required to register your religious preference and the money was automatically taken from your paycheck and sent to your church.

You can try to claim that Christians were not trained to kill, but then you have to claim the 60 million Germans were not real Christians....just like many who will say that those who join ISIS and commit acts of violence and hate are not true Muslims....

4. Carter does not hate the Jews and your claim that Carter would have fit in with the Nazis is pretty offensive and hardly a Christian thing to say.

 

[Caroljo]

1. Somehow I'm not surprised that you are a Holocaust denier.
2. The actual difference in the Jewish population of Europe was about 6 million by 1946.
3. The Nazis were either Lutheran or Catholic. The Nazi government mandated tithes. You were required to register your religious preference and the money was automatically taken from your paycheck and sent to your church.

You can try to claim that Christians were not trained to kill, but then you have to claim the 60 million Germans were not real Christians....just like many who will say that those who join ISIS and commit acts of violence and hate are not true Muslims....

4. Carter does not hate the Jews and your claim that Carter would have fit in with the Nazis is pretty offensive and hardly a Christian thing to say.

I have never been a holocaust denier! I didn't not deny it happened....I told you it wasn't 6M JEWS that were killed. Yes, it was mostly Jews, but not all. I visited a concentration camp when in Germany a few years ago....nobody can honestly deny that ever happened!

Carter has always said that Israel needs to give up their land....he has always supported the Palestinians over them. He's an anti-semite....period.

 

[Queen Titania]

I have never been a holocaust denier! I didn't not deny it happened....I told you it wasn't 6M JEWS that were killed. Yes, it was mostly Jews, but not all. I visited a concentration camp when in Germany a few years ago....nobody can honestly deny that ever happened!

Carter has always said that Israel needs to give up their land....he has always supported the Palestinians over them. He's an anti-semite....period.

Don't get into it xxx

 

[middleview]

I have never been a holocaust denier! I didn't not deny it happened....I told you it wasn't 6M JEWS that were killed. Yes, it was mostly Jews, but not all. I visited a concentration camp when in Germany a few years ago....nobody can honestly deny that ever happened!

Carter has always said that Israel needs to give up their land....he has always supported the Palestinians over them. He's an anti-semite....period.

1. So you admit there was a Holocaust, but it wasn't 6 million Jews...they were murdered by Christians, but you still think Christians are not trained to murder people as Muslims are...got it. No double standard there, eh Caroljo?

2. Carter was talking about land appropriated from Palestinians. The settlements in the west bank were illegal and on occupied land. He was making the case that confiscating land to build settlements on was creating more conflict between Palestinians and Jews and he is right. No, he is not anti-Semite and no it is not "their" land. The Palestinians have the right to live on the land they have passed down from generation to generation for hundreds of years. We are talking about family farms...

 

[EatTheRich]

Christians aren't taught to kill people that break the laws as Islam is. We don't (unless it's some nutjob that says they're Christian) execute or imprison someone because they're gay. WE are taught to love everyone. We love the person, just not the sin. But we don't murder someone because of their sin! We don't expect to get 27 virgins when we die. We follow the 10 commandments (thou shalt not kill). There's a huge difference!

Leviticus 18:29 ... kill gays ... commanded in the Christian Bible.

Do you oppose capital punishment?

 

[EatTheRich]

Caroljo answered the second part of your post beautifully.

Let me comment on the first part. I regard it as persecution when one religion (Islam) is protected, Muslims are given special time and places to do their many daily prayers, Islam is taught in schools to the point of having children pretend to be Muslim for a day and act out the prayers of Muslims.....................while any expression of Christianity is forbidden. People have been shamed, sued, or otherwise treated harshly for even a silent moment which "might" be a prayer. Teachers can allow Muslim prayers but cannot institute a moment of silence in the classroom. Student speakers may NOT mention prayer or God in their graduation speeches.

What I would call for is exactly the same treatment for all religions. If Christians cannot pray during work, in public ceremonies, or in school...........then neither can Muslims or people of any other religions. Treat it equal.

As to the second part - all religions have commonalities. It's their differences that make them distinctive. Listing their commonalities does not prove that their gods are the same.

The Christian religion is routinely privileged in the public sphere vis-a-vis religions like Islam. Teachers do not organize Muslim prayers in public schools. Kids are not prevented from saying Christian prayers either. Kids chosen on the basis of neutral criteria, who have control over the contents of their speeches, can talk about God during graduation speeches. These are just lies by Christian triumphalists.

Treating all religions equally would mean that if governments put up Ten Commandments monuments they also put up monuments to Hinduism and Satanism.

 

[EatTheRich]

I have never been a holocaust denier! I didn't not deny it happened....I told you it wasn't 6M JEWS that were killed. Yes, it was mostly Jews, but not all. I visited a concentration camp when in Germany a few years ago....nobody can honestly deny that ever happened!

Carter has always said that Israel needs to give up their land....he has always supported the Palestinians over them. He's an anti-semite....period.

6 million is the number of Jews killed ... of the 15 million or so total people killed by the Nazis, not counting people killed as a direct result of the war.