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Cognitive Dissonnance: Orson Scott Card

BrianDamage

Council Member
I've got to disagree. Like Trap, I've read all the Ender work up through the mid-90's. The short story that was in Analog back in the mid 70's was great. The novel was good. Every subsequent novel has been worse. Card, like James Paterson, has descended into being a hack.
 
If you want to blow your mind, check out Eric Clapton's views on race.
Could you elaborate on this, Arkady? Eric Clapton has of course performed with MANY black musicians. He and B.B. King are very close personal friends. Do you know something about Eric Clapton that I don't?
 

BrianDamage

Council Member
Could you elaborate on this, Arkady? Eric Clapton has of course performed with MANY black musicians. He and B.B. King are very close personal friends. Do you know something about Eric Clapton that I don't?
"I used to be into dope, now I’m into racism. It’s much heavier, man. [Unwelcome language removed] wogs, man. [Unwelcome language removed] Saudis taking over London. Bastard wogs. Britain is becoming overcrowded and Enoch will stop it and send them all back. The black wogs and coons and Arabs and [Unwelcome language removed] Jamaicans and [Unwelcome language removed] [indecipherable] don’t belong here, we don’t want them here. This is England, this is a white country, we don’t want any black wogs and coons living here. We need to make clear to them they are not welcome. England is for white people, man. We are a white country. I don’t want [Unwelcome language removed] wogs living next to me with their standards. This is Great Britain, a white country, what is happening to us, for [Unwelcome language removed]'s sake? We need to vote for Enoch Powell, he’s a great man, speaking truth. Vote for Enoch, he’s our man, he’s on our side, he’ll look after us. I want all of you here to vote for Enoch, support him, he’s on our side. Enoch for Prime Minister! Throw the wogs out! Keep Britain white!" -- Eric Clapton, Birmingham concert, August 5, 1976

(You could tell by looking at him that he was three sheets to the wind.)
 

connieb

Senator
Well, when I have come accross things about an artist I find offensive, I tend to then avoid their work in the future. But, I simply can not relate to deeply loving a piece of art ( in any artistic form) Its just there, may be nice to look at, may be moving to listen to... but its someone else's expression. And, personally, I don't get all that wrapped up in what other people do or create.
 

JackDallas

Senator
Supporting Member
As opposed to Non-Cognitive Dissonance on your part and that of your co-morons.

For those who don't know, Orson Scott Card is a famous sci-fi writer and bigot. He's best known for his sci-fi/kid-lit novel "Ender's Game," which is about to be a blockbuster movie. He's only slightly less well known for his wild-eyed ravings against homosexuals and gay marriage in particular. He quite literally said that any government allowing same-sex marriage was his "mortal enemy," which he would "act to destroy." He's also a typical right-wing nutcase when it comes to loathing Obama and feeding on the Benghazi paranoia.

Normally, when an artist of any sort says things that crazy or vile, I don't have trouble squaring it in my head. Typically, reactionary celebrities are third-rate hacks, or wildly overrated, so there's no great gulf between their schlocky output and their brain-dead commentary. If Chuck Norris, Ted Nugent, Kid Rock, or Michael Bay want to say something atrocious, well, it's not like their "art" hasn't already disparaged them in my eyes far beyond the ability of a little political lunacy to add or detract. Even David Mamet's neoconservative ramblings pose no challenge for me, because I always found his stuff to be shallow, stylized, self-indulgent twaddle, appreciated by critics only for providing foul-mouthed material for scene-chewing actors. But Card is in another class. Like few others I can think of (Clint Eastwood, I suppose), I have trouble squaring Card's work product, which I respect tremendously, with his personal beliefs.

If you haven't read "Ender's Game," pick up a copy. Like the Harry Potter books, it's aimed towards kids, but is good enough to engage adults. And, unlike the Harry Potter books, it has an intense and thoughtful view of human nature, and a couple characters who are fully realized in a way that is rare outside of great literature. It is one of the few true masterpieces of the genre. I just have trouble wrapping my brain around the idea that something that good could have come out of such a clown.

It occurs to me that this must be a FAR more common form of cognitive dissonance for those of you on the right. Assuming you aren't dead inside, you must regularly find yourself deeply loving artistic products made by people whose political views you can't stand. Most great artists, after all, have a decidedly liberal bent. Nearly all the great modern musical acts are fairly conspicuously lefty. Most of Hollywood's talented directors, screenwriters, and actors are liberal. Painters and sculptors have nearly all been well to the left of the societies of their time. With only a few prominent exceptions, both the great literary writers and the great popular writers of our time tend to lean well to the left of center. I imagine you conservatives must just be much more practiced at disconnecting your thoughts about the product and the person than we liberals.
 
"I used to be into dope, now I’m into racism. It’s much heavier, man. [Unwelcome language removed] wogs, man. [Unwelcome language removed] Saudis taking over London. Bastard wogs. Britain is becoming overcrowded and Enoch will stop it and send them all back. The black wogs and coons and Arabs and [Unwelcome language removed] Jamaicans and [Unwelcome language removed] [indecipherable] don’t belong here, we don’t want them here. This is England, this is a white country, we don’t want any black wogs and coons living here. We need to make clear to them they are not welcome. England is for white people, man. We are a white country. I don’t want [Unwelcome language removed] wogs living next to me with their standards. This is Great Britain, a white country, what is happening to us, for [Unwelcome language removed]'s sake? We need to vote for Enoch Powell, he’s a great man, speaking truth. Vote for Enoch, he’s our man, he’s on our side, he’ll look after us. I want all of you here to vote for Enoch, support him, he’s on our side. Enoch for Prime Minister! Throw the wogs out! Keep Britain white!" -- Eric Clapton, Birmingham concert, August 5, 1976

(You could tell by looking at him that he was three sheets to the wind.)
Wow. That's just plain weird, considering that virtually ALL the inspiration for his music comes from black blues musicians. Do you know if he has said anything about this (presumably drunken) rant later on? Like maybe apologized?
 
"I used to be into dope, now I’m into racism. It’s much heavier, man. [Unwelcome language removed] wogs, man. [Unwelcome language removed] Saudis taking over London. Bastard wogs. Britain is becoming overcrowded and Enoch will stop it and send them all back. The black wogs and coons and Arabs and [Unwelcome language removed] Jamaicans and [Unwelcome language removed] [indecipherable] don’t belong here, we don’t want them here. This is England, this is a white country, we don’t want any black wogs and coons living here. We need to make clear to them they are not welcome. England is for white people, man. We are a white country. I don’t want [Unwelcome language removed] wogs living next to me with their standards. This is Great Britain, a white country, what is happening to us, for [Unwelcome language removed]'s sake? We need to vote for Enoch Powell, he’s a great man, speaking truth. Vote for Enoch, he’s our man, he’s on our side, he’ll look after us. I want all of you here to vote for Enoch, support him, he’s on our side. Enoch for Prime Minister! Throw the wogs out! Keep Britain white!" -- Eric Clapton, Birmingham concert, August 5, 1976

(You could tell by looking at him that he was three sheets to the wind.)


LOL! He sounds like every Democrat that ever got elected before about 1980 in this country (and some, like Robert Byrd, long AFTER 1980)...
 

jammer

Mayor
"I used to be into dope, now I’m into racism. It’s much heavier, man. <img src=images/smilies/animated/censored.gif>ing wogs, man. <img src=images/smilies/animated/censored.gif>ing Saudis taking over London. Bastard wogs. Britain is becoming overcrowded and Enoch will stop it and send them all back. The black wogs and coons and Arabs and <img src=images/smilies/animated/censored.gif>ing Jamaicans and <img src=images/smilies/animated/censored.gif>ing [indecipherable] don’t belong here, we don’t want them here. This is England, this is a white country, we don’t want any black wogs and coons living here. We need to make clear to them they are not welcome. England is for white people, man. We are a white country. I don’t want <img src=images/smilies/animated/censored.gif>ing wogs living next to me with their standards. This is Great Britain, a white country, what is happening to us, for <img src=images/smilies/animated/censored.gif>'s sake? We need to vote for Enoch Powell, he’s a great man, speaking truth. Vote for Enoch, he’s our man, he’s on our side, he’ll look after us. I want all of you here to vote for Enoch, support him, he’s on our side. Enoch for Prime Minister! Throw the wogs out! Keep Britain white!" -- Eric Clapton, Birmingham concert, August 5, 1976

(You could tell by looking at him that he was three sheets to the wind.)
Wow, a quote from 1976? Now that's up to date!
 

Arkady

President
Wow. That's just plain weird, considering that virtually ALL the inspiration for his music comes from black blues musicians. Do you know if he has said anything about this (presumably drunken) rant later on? Like maybe apologized?
Yeah, it's very weird, given the extremely heavy black influence of his music: not just all the blues influence, but even Bob Marley. However, he's never exactly apologized for it. He has tried to distance himself from those remarks, but he still makes positive references to Enoch Powell and has said some squirrelly things about race since then -- like excusing his comments by pointing out his wife had just been hit on by a Saudi.
 

Arkady

President
Wow, a quote from 1976? Now that's up to date!
If it were just a coked-up alcoholic going briefly off the deep end in the 70s, and he'd worked hard to distance himself from such ideas in the decades since, it would be easier to let him off the hook. But he has never fully distanced himself from reactionary racial politics. From his Wikipedia page:

In a 2004 interview with Uncut, Clapton referred to Powell as "outrageously brave", and stated that his "feeling about this has not changed", because the UK is still "... inviting people in as cheap labour and then putting them in ghettos." In 2004 Clapton told an interviewer for Scotland on Sunday, "There's no way I could be a racist. It would make no sense".[124] In his 2007 autobiography, Clapton called himself "deliberately oblivious to it all" and wrote, "I had never really understood or been directly affected by racial conflict ... when I listened to music, I was disinterested in where the players came from or what colour their skin was. Interesting, then, that 10 years later, I would be labelled a racist ... Since then, I have learnt to keep my opinions to myself. Of course, it might also have had something to do with the fact that Pattie had just been leered at by a member of the Saudi royal family."[125] In a December 2007 interview with Melvyn Bragg on The South Bank Show, Clapton reiterated his support for Enoch Powell and again denied that Powell's views were "racist".

When a guy says horribly racist things once, possibly in a drug-addled state, it's forgivable. But if he's still shilling for a far-right nativist politician decades later, while making excuses for his own prior racist comments, that's a different matter. Here's the nativist/racist rant for which the "outrageously brave" Powell is known:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivers_of_Blood_speech

It's a Rush Limbaugh/Anne Coulter style piece, and Clapton apparently STILL admires such thinking.
 

Arkady

President
I've got to disagree. Like Trap, I've read all the Ender work up through the mid-90's. The short story that was in Analog back in the mid 70's was great. The novel was good. Every subsequent novel has been worse. Card, like James Paterson, has descended into being a hack.
I have no view on whether he's descended into being a hack. His most recent piece I've read was Ender's Game. But I thought it was brilliant.
 

fairsheet

Senator
I have a theory...what else is new? Genuinely top rate artists, are different from the rest of us. That's what makes them top rate artists. They have a level of confidence in themselves and their art, that most of us lack. People tell them how wonderous their work is. People buy their work, and they naturally get to thinking that they're "special" and inherently superior to everyone else.

Therefore, they needn't waste any time contemplating and squaring their own views because...their views are superior simply by dint of their being their views! I've noticed more than a few young professionals - physicians, architects, etc. - go through a phase where they're convinced that their advanced degree is de facto proof that their ideas as to anything...politics, plumbing, cars...or whatever, are superior to the average person's, simply by definition.

In relativel short order, they figure out that the smart person is the one who respects and advantages herself of other people's smarts. And...I imagine MOST artists come to that understanding, relatively quickly.
 

Arkady

President
You have definitely lowered my opinion of Eric Clapton, Arkady. This was all news to me.
For me, this never caused me all that much cognitive dissonance, because I wasn't a big Clapton fan. I liked "Layla," but overall I find his work, especially the more recent stuff, lifeless. I love Blues music, and, for me, his just lacks the right feel. There's no soul there. That said, plenty of people I do admire insist that Clapton is a genius, including plenty of great musicians, and some great black musicians. So, I guess there's some dissonance there.
 
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