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Dems need to abandon the "angry white man" meme

Qtec90

Mayor
RED ALERT!!! The "Out-of-worldly-mr-boob" needs to set FORBES straight!!! ... (And oddly enough, no information supplied to back-up your statements... again)

Let me guess... ETF Strategist asset management firm? That's managing "Other People's Money" ; As well as this "Firm" is NOT an "Individual" ... Some day you must figure out the definition of "Assets Management" ; [If you'd like I could help you out here, too!]
 

BobbyT

Governor
Well, in the case of the examples cited attempting it "internally", they are now pretty much lepers to the lion's share of their ideological brethren, so it's hard to see how your assessment is accurate. Change in their case is usually devoid of it, and of the trickle down variety, as is their madness.

This shift in meaning on the right happened mainly because of creative, persuasive, long-term work by conservatives themselves. Only advocates with unquestioned ideological bona fides, embedded in organizations known to be core parts of conservative infrastructure, could perform this kind of ideological alchemy. As Yale law professor Dan Kahan has argued, studies and randomized trials are useless in persuading the ideologically committed until such people are convinced that new information is not a threat to their identity. Until then, it goes in one ear and out the other. Only rock-ribbed partisans, not squishy moderates, can successfully engage in this sort of “identity vouching” for previously disregarded facts. Of course, there are limits to how far ideological reinvention can go. As political scientist David Karol has argued, it is unlikely to work when it requires crossing a major, organized member of a party coalition. That’s something environmentalists learned when they tried to encourage evangelicals to break ranks on global warming through the idea of “creation care.” They got their heads handed to them by the main conservative evangelical leaders, who saw the split this would create with energy-producing businesses upon whom Republican depend for support.


ANd indeed, your "more determined effort not to change" comment is exactly what underlies my analysis of what afflicts the modern "rightwing brain". That "effort to change" necessarily includes recognition of failures in the past and potentially for the future without the change, and there is a great deal in their collective past to be ashamed of. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=conservatives always on the wrong side of history&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/05/11/conservatives-always-on-the-wrong-side-of-history/&ei=RmaxUNalPMqhyAGZ3YCIBQ&usg=AFQjCNHdXR6fFk7jUJKhtckgIavRy3c_bA It's the "why" behind their "rightwing bubble", and their lying, denials, deflections, projections, scapegoating, all the many and varied ways they hide from their shame and self-disgust, and why they are so disgusted with those like you and I.

Morality and politics are inseparable, and their disgust has its roots in the former. The reality they are hiding from, is the sick and twisted one represented by their historical record, past and present, and therefore themselves, individually and collectively. THeir disgust needs to be driven inward like a sharp rusty nail, where it belongs. George Wallace didn't undergo a conversion because he and his kind were coddled, but rather because he knew what he was gonna be identified as without the CONversion.

Forgiveness and understanding after the fact is one thing, but until then, CONdemnation of them is justified. Coddling them provides no impetus for the kinda changes needed or desired. It is if anything, more enabling than anything else imo.

I understand of course your "good intentions", but the dynamics are largely the same as in the "racism" case. http://www.silentracism.com/sr.php

The simple fact of the matter is, shame has all but lost its effectiveness as a pov-changing, behavior modification tool in the modern rightwingnut, but it's all we have.

ANd if by "internally" you mean by themselves, as opposed to by members of their own tribe, how is that process ever gonna be started without us giving them a heaping dose of it? They sure as hell aren't gonna get it from their own, as you can see from our experiences here.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I have and will never have more than that to offer to any of them as long as they are in the clutches of their cult.
I never said anything about coddling anyone. I never said anything about not calling out bad behavior or racism when it rears its ugly head. I just don't believe there's anything productive about lumping everyone together. And, apparently unlike you, I think name calling doesn't work but rather furthers the devide. To call out specific people for specific things, hell yes.
 

worldlymrb

Revenge
I never said anything about coddling anyone. I never said anything about not calling out bad behavior or racism when it rears its ugly head. I just don't believe there's anything productive about lumping everyone together. And, apparently unlike you, I think name calling doesn't work but rather furthers the devide. To call out specific people for specific things, hell yes.
I've said the same thing many times and all I get is 'racist'.
 

worldlymrb

Revenge
RED ALERT!!! The "Out-of-worldly-mr-boob" needs to set FORBES straight!!! ... (And oddly enough, no information supplied to back-up your statements... again)

Let me guess... ETF Strategist asset management firm? That's managing "Other People's Money" ; As well as this "Firm" is NOT an "Individual" ... Some day you must figure out the definition of "Assets Management" ; [If you'd like I could help you out here, too!]
You got Carlos Slim worth $69B, A hedge fund manager controls $1,500B, WHO DO YOU THINK HAS MORE LEVERAGE?

However, hedge fund managers still must report to their 'boss'.
 

Wahbooz

Governor
Ah yes, how sweet. Geithner's credit rating. I wasn't aware that Geithner borrowed us into a couple of wars, and then bailed out those terrible bankers you rant about; those TBTF banks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SFz6AsUUrQ&feature=fvsr

Well who do you want to blame for where the country is, Kermit the Frog? Bush was president, he was the one who continually claimed "the fundamentals of our economy is strong", or at least as well as he could say it. Guess whose policies brought us to this place and time? It wasn't Obama, it was Bush. Do you want to listen to the speech Bush gave when he said he talked Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac into providing billions to back up mortgages for low income first time home buyers? You probably conveniently forgot that, since it wasn't in the talking points for this coming week.

And by the way, those toxic mortgages were bundled into 'securities' because Glass/Steagall was repealed.

And if I was to say that, I'm educated enough to use proper grammar. Instead of saying 'Your a Racist', I'd be saying 'You're a racist'. I guess that's the difference between us.
 

worldlymrb

Revenge
You get called racist because

a) you use a double standard

b) you use false claims in your attacks - claims that have historically been used by racists.
Really? Using a double standard is racist?

Hmm..Using false claims historically used by racist. So quoting you would be racist?
 

Qtec90

Mayor
So? "FORBES" forgot your "Unknown" hedge fund manager (Maybe because he's not actually worth very much, huh? ; Or were you referring to that "Rich Mexican? ; You know... That "Non-White / Non-American guy?) Like I said: TIME for "YOU" to write a note to "FORBES" and set them STRAIGHT, huh? .... But I'll predict what their reply to you might look like: (See previous statement & add "Dear Kook" to the header line).

My bet is that this "Unknown" (Imaginary?) person you keep referring to, has to ANSWER TO a "Board of Directors" as well as "ALL of the Share Holders" ; I'd say that if he was out representing his "Own" interests, they'd be telling him to hit-the-road rather quickly.

But now.... BACK TO THE FACTS: "Carlos Slim" is in FACT an "Obama Supporter", World's Richest Man, Supplying "Phones" (Called by Anti-Obama Anti-Poor Right-Wingnuts "Obamaphones") Aimed At Helping The Poor.
 

worldlymrb

Revenge
@Qtip

Relax, I didn't dispute Forbes numbers at all. I was just showing that there are even bigger movers/shakers with leverage equaling 10% of GDP.

Hey, check out the Bill & Malinda Gates Foundation's impressive financials <Link>. It's puny compared to the Rockefeller/Carnegie foundations though.
 

Qtec90

Mayor
@Qtip

Relax, I didn't dispute Forbes numbers at all. I was just showing that there are even bigger movers/shakers with leverage equaling 10% of GDP.

Hey, check out the Bill & Malinda Gates Foundation's impressive financials <Link>. It's puny compared to the Rockefeller/Carnegie foundations though.
Poooooor "Boob".... You really DO need to finish reading postings before you respond to them. (BTW: I do see you recognized ALSO that the top TWO "Richest People" on that FORBES list (At least) were ALSO Obama Supporters!
 

Mytzlplk

Governor
That's exactly what you're doing when you ask others to not engage in accurate generalizations of a group based on some line of reasoning like the one you offered. If some rightwinger wants to distance himself/break the association with that group, then he's likely to do so because of in whoile or in part, because of the label and stigma, etc, accompaning that generalization, so how in the [Unwelcome language removed] is that gonna impede their cooperation, given it's a point of agreement?

"Angry white men" use is a "calling out" of bad behavior that you're trying to discourage. And of course "name-calling" is part of it, because that's what "angry white men" is, and for the same reason why I call racists racists, homophobes homophobes, flat earthers, flat earther idiots, etc, "the divide" be damned, and "mainstream" republicans these days have a hugely disproportionate amount of them and their enablers in their rank ranks. Are you deaf, and didn't hear all the dog whistles the Romney campaign blew? Do you lack an understanding of their time-tested and always used to some degree, "Southern Strategy"? Well, it you vote repub, that's what you're voting for, and more -- a "divide" of their creation and perpetuation. The idea that they shouldn't collectively be properly and justly labeled to avoid losses in cooperation or because it impedes the movement away from that crap by some, is BS imo.

If they individually refuse to cooperate because they are "angry white men" pursuing an agenda that matches that description, then they are just reinforcing the validity and justifying the use of the label. ANd if their individual progress away from those so labeled (assuming the association with the label has a role in that movement away) in the form of some cooperation is impeded by the use of the label alone, then they really don't care too much about rectifying the problem, and are therefore part of that problem and not of any lasting solutions to it.

ANd of course, it's just calling out "specific people" for "specific things" with "name-calling", in this case, "angry white men" of the republican kind. ANy that wanna openly disavow/denounce such can show their innocence of the charge by doing so, as the likes of a Frum, Bartlett, etc have done. That's a much better solution to the problem than your "let's not be unkind (not name-call) to the group lest...." and also represents the only real avenue for the kinda "change" sought in their ranks, individual by individual.

BY all means, stop today reminding our repub voters here that they support the party of racists, homophobes, islamophobes, sexists, authoritarians, Let them eat dirt/die, etc, etc, etc, nincompoops, because otherwise they might take offense due to the guilt by way of association it represents, which makes it personal.

I won't. It's about the only joy to be found interacting with them as far as I am concerned, given that most of them are too stupid to know when they've had their ass kicked right square in on the merits.
 

worldlymrb

Revenge
Poooooor "Boob".... You really DO need to finish reading postings before you respond to them. (BTW: I do see you recognized ALSO that the top TWO "Richest People" on that FORBES list (At least) were ALSO Obama Supporters!
Yea, the ultra rich are fanatical fascist
 

BobbyT

Governor
That's exactly what you're doing when you ask others to not engage in accurate generalizations of a group based on some line of reasoning like the one you offered. If some rightwinger wants to distance himself/break the association with that group, then he's likely to do so because of in whoile or in part, because of the label and stigma, etc, accompaning that generalization, so how in the <img src=images/smilies/animated/censored.gif> is that gonna impede their cooperation, given it's a point of agreement?

"Angry white men" use is a "calling out" of bad behavior that you're trying to discourage. And of course "name-calling" is part of it, because that's what "angry white men" is, and for the same reason why I call racists racists, homophobes homophobes, flat earthers, flat earther idiots, etc, "the divide" be damned, and "mainstream" republicans these days have a hugely disproportionate amount of them and their enablers in their rank ranks. Are you deaf, and didn't hear all the dog whistles the Romney campaign blew? Do you lack an understanding of their time-tested and always used to some degree, "Southern Strategy"? Well, it you vote repub, that's what you're voting for, and more -- a "divide" of their creation and perpetuation. The idea that they shouldn't collectively be properly and justly labeled to avoid losses in cooperation or because it impedes the movement away from that crap by some, is BS imo.

If they individually refuse to cooperate because they are "angry white men" pursuing an agenda that matches that description, then they are just reinforcing the validity and justifying the use of the label. ANd if their individual progress away from those so labeled (assuming the association with the label has a role in that movement away) in the form of some cooperation is impeded by the use of the label alone, then they really don't care too much about rectifying the problem, and are therefore part of that problem and not of any lasting solutions to it.

ANd of course, it's just calling out "specific people" for "specific things" with "name-calling", in this case, "angry white men" of the republican kind. ANy that wanna openly disavow/denounce such can show their innocence of the charge by doing so, as the likes of a Frum, Bartlett, etc have done. That's a much better solution to the problem than your "let's not be unkind (not name-call) to the group lest...." and also represents the only real avenue for the kinda "change" sought in their ranks, individual by individual.

BY all means, stop today reminding our repub voters here that they support the party of racists, homophobes, islamophobes, sexists, authoritarians, Let them eat dirt/die, etc, etc, etc, nincompoops, because otherwise they might take offense due to the guilt by way of association it represents, which makes it personal.

I won't. It's about the only joy to be found interacting with them as far as I am concerned, given that most of them are too stupid to know when they've had their ass kicked right square in on the merits.
First, I typically vote Democratic, especially for President because I think SC nomination is too important to be left to Republicans. I have voted Republican in local elections in the past because I vote for the person not the party. Second, of course I heard and have heard the dog whistles from the Republican party for years. The counter to that is to call them out, which I think you have done on these boards and which I think is a good thing to do. We can't do anything about those who are primed to hear the dog whistles.

I don't know who the "they" are that you are citing when you say "they" are pursuing an agenda, but I would categorize them as the "spokespeople" for the Republican party (the Rushes, currently the McCain's, and other politicians and members of the noise machine). That's not who I'm talking about though. I am talking about Republican voters.

Finally, I'm pretty sick of you characterizing what I said as me saying "lets not be unkind" or your earlier characterization of me wanting to "coddle" people. This doesn't have a damn thing to do with playing nice or being nice, it has everything to do with not lumping a bunch of people who do not create policy nor make decisions for the Republican party but rather are just average voters who happen to vote Republican and have been consistently lied to and misled by their party. We Democrats should want to encourage those people to realize that their party is NOT representing them, not just push them further into the arms of the Republican party by calling them all, regardless of their individual belief system, as "angry white men." It doesn't do Democrats any good to alienate people. You seem to think that everyone who votes Republican is evil and I think a lot of people vote Republican because either 1) they always have in the past, or 2) they mistakenly believe Republicans are better for business. Those two groups of people are ripe for helping to understand that the Democratic party is the better party for this country. I just don't see the logic of continuously trying to alienate them. I will say, if I were a Republican, reading your screed against Republicans above would certainly not make me feel welcome in your party even if I was unhappy with my party.
 

Qtec90

Mayor
And so? Now that we all know who it was that the "Smart Money" was betting on, you never answered me about how you feel having had to pay $11 a gallon for your gas sense 2008? (Especially sense everyone else has only been paying between $2.75 & $4.50 (Depending upon their demographic location)
 

colfax

Council Member
Well, I'm not "shaking my angry white fists" at you, since I am a lifelong liberal Democrat.
Please forgive me. I incorrectly thought you were a rightie.

I should have known better, since you use English well, but I, ashamedly, screwed up.
 

Mytzlplk

Governor
No, I simply know it to be "a fact" that there are always two kinds of people in groups like that, the truly evil and their enablers, the latter of which you wish to spare the feelings of because they aren't truly evil but rather misguided or ignorant, and also because you think the unavoidable personalization of it guilt by association results in will stand in the way of their desired and much needed "CONversion". The same dynamics apply here whether we're talking about the decision to compromise or cooperate on the leadership level or the election voting decision by the minion. They both involve answering the question as to whether or not the generalization/label use deters them from "coming around" because of the affront represented by the "name-calling". I say generally speaking, it won't deter them, because it is their realization and acknowledgement of the problem the name-calling/labeling brings to the fore that started them on their path, and indeed, a path that might never have been cut through their jungle of ideas without it.

So I ask, if you wanna make them aware of the fact that they are being manipulated, misled, and kept ignorant by the leadership in the repub party of both the pol and pundit kind working in concert towards that end, how do you do so without labeling them and the party they control liars, as opposed to "angry white men"? It's like BHO said (as some of us did long before...) they cling to their ignorance, and I've long added, with the mythical tenacity of the Gila Monster -- even after their head is cut off. This can be seen in the 63% still believing that wmds were found in Iraq, to the most dangerous rightwingnut of all -- the flat earther. You simply can't overcome all this on a personal level and achieve the conversions desired without establishing their guilt with the use of descriptive terms like gullible, ignorant, etc, either explicitly or by implication, in the process of convincing them they've been played by "the angry white men" in their leadership or who are their peers. That personalizes it far more than the use of a generalization like "angry white men", but remains the unavoidable inner personal battle they must go through in the process of rejection sought. The sinner can't be forgiven unless they first recognize that they sinned, and rejecting the sinner label kinda short circuits that process, no?

What you call "alienating", I call testing their metal/convictions and raising their awareness. It's the flag their party collectively flies. The "angry white men" label is nothing more than a condemnation of what they support, whether it be because they are racists, etc, or because they've chosen to overlook it under some "lesser of two evils" rationale that their being misled, etc, that you want to rectify, is the proximate cause of.

This subject has been a pet peeve of mine for decades now, and one I've focused on a lot in my time on the "internets". It's also the reason behind my "signature" choice -- which hardly makes the case that they are ALL stupid, or evil for that matter. I just see them being unduly offended by the proper characterization of the repub party in toto and using that as a reason to stay on the path/supporting of gullibility and ignorance as an indication of them giving the percieved personal affront more weight than the harm the victims of it are burdened with, which makes them either rotten fruit, or unripe and not ready for the picking yet. They are like the cult member not quite ready to make the leap back into reality because they are rightly labeled as, a cult member. When they make that leap is when our job of lifting them up and positively supporting them begins, not while they are still mired in the muck of their choosing.

Call it "tough love" or an earning on their part. To earn it and to make the "CONversion" as many have with the dropping of the republican label, http://www.google.com/search?q=why+i+am+no+longer+republican&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGHP_en is due to what but their understanding and acknowledging that such things as "the angry white men" label for the republican party is both earned and deserved?
 

BobbyT

Governor
Please forgive me. I incorrectly thought you were a rightie.

I should have known better, since you use English well, but I, ashamedly, screwed up.
Not your fault, I didn't express my sentiment well since I think you'e not the only one who thought I was from the right.
 
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