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Economics Without Greed

georgephillip

Governor
Yikes! What's going to save that kid from a life of poverty - communism or capitalism?

https://www.globalpolicy.org/images/pdfs/Global_Food_Aid_Deliveries_Largest_Donor.pdf

Funny thing - I don't see one communist country on that list...
http://www.isn.ethz.ch/Digital-Library/Articles/Detail/?lang=en&id=91044
"To unravel the forces that brought us to this point, you have to trace a staggering web of international policies back about a half-century.

"In documenting its history, scholar Raj Patel came to the conclusion that the food crisis is not so much about food as it is about gaping global inequities. 'The reason people go hungry is not for a shortage of food,' he said in an interview. 'We have enough food to feed everyone. The reason people go hungry is that they are poor.'"

Capitalism produces enough food to feed every human being alive, yet millions starve to death every year? Might that have something to do with production-for-profit as opposed to production-for-need?
 

georgephillip

Governor
Over the last century, it's been proven time and time again that capitalism provides better scientific results than sociali
It has also been proven capitalism distributes it results in markets based on ability to pay and not on human need. Do you see how capitalism can simultaneously exist as the greatest generator of wealth in human history yet still fail completely when it comes to distributing what it produces?
 

Max R.

On the road
Supporting Member
It has also been proven capitalism distributes it results in markets based on ability to pay and not on human need. Do you see how capitalism can simultaneously exist as the greatest generator of wealth in human history yet still fail completely when it comes to distributing what it produces?
Correct. In a world of limited resources, it's lifeboat ethics.

Haven't we had this conversation before? IIRC, you ran from the question of having 50 people in the freezing water and only room for 25 on the lifeboat.

The solution isn't letting all 50 die. It's to save the 25 (maybe 35 if we take a risk) and then, upon reaching shore, seek to build better boats. That will be done through capitalism. The only way your precious Marxist chart can work is in a world of unlimited resources. Reach that level and the world will change.
 

georgephillip

Governor
The solution isn't letting all 50 die. It's to save the 25 (maybe 35 if we take a risk) and then, upon reaching shore, seek to build better boats. That will be done through capitalism. The only way your precious Marxist chart can work is in a world of unlimited resources.
Now, you appear to be dodging the question of how to determine which 25-35 passengers will live? In a capitalistic market, it would be those with the most dollar-votes.
 

Max R.

On the road
Supporting Member
I wouldn't auction off the 25 seats to the passengers with the most money, would you?
I would choose the most qualified. In a capitalist society, the cream rises to the top. In a socialist society, the milk is perpetually blended mixing it all together and only the parts chosen by the Socialist elite are given privileges.
 

Max R.

On the road
Supporting Member
Now, you appear to be dodging the question of how to determine which 25-35 passengers will live? In a capitalistic market, it would be those with the most dollar-votes.
Just did. Are you okay? A little anxious tonight, aren't you?
 

georgephillip

Governor
I would choose the most qualified. In a capitalist society, the cream rises to the top. In a socialist society, the milk is perpetually blended mixing it all together and only the parts chosen by the Socialist elite are given privileges.
How are you defining "qualified?"
"qual·i·fy
ˈkwäləˌfī/
verb
  1. "1.
    be entitled to a particular benefit or privilege by fulfilling a necessary condition.
    "they do not qualify for compensation payments"
    synonyms: be eligible for, meet the requirements for; More
  2. "become officially recognized as a practitioner of a particular profession or activity by satisfying the relevant conditions or requirements, typically by undertaking a course of study and passing examinations.
  3. "'after the war he qualified as a lawyer'"
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=qualify
 

Wahbooz

Governor
Where ever would you get that idea? I support prosecuting the crimes that are already illegal, rather than allowing the politicians to sidestep their responsibility to uphold those laws by serially adding legislation that provides the appearance that they are addressing the problems without actually doing anything to piss off their criminal benefactors in the corporate "C suites." And in the process make life miserable (and more expensive) for the law abiding. If you can't see that this process is leading to fewer and larger businesses, and the wealth concentration that goes along with that, then you are either not really interested in solving our problems or worse, invested in keeping the system going down the tubes.

And actually, yes they actually are proof that SOX did nothing to prevent fraudulent accounting and even outright theft and/or Ponzi schemes. And the fact that you ignore that, and equate my stance to "lets just open up America to crime" simply renders you unserious in this entire matter.
Your entire response is 'unserious' in this matter. 'Law abiding' already adhere to accounting principles in their reporting, as well as in their record keeping. It's those who do not abide by accounting principles who break the law, now that SOX is in place. And the 'law abiding' are not being unduly burdened because their reporting and record keeping is already in place. Any corporation which has a certified audit, the time spent is less, and the expense is less, because their records are up to date. Even the common taxpayer is supposed to keep records for at least 3 years, and if they do not and get audited, it could cost them. Any company which cares about their bottom line, would want to adhere to keeping records. And your comment about fewer and larger businesses is ludicrious.

Laws against murder and larceny have not stopped the commission of those crimes either, so should we throw them out? Let the criminals have a holiday? No, the law is the law, and as such gives way to prosecution. Hell, any ponzi scheme, with no record keeping, can claim anything they want, but having to have records or they broke the law, gives prosecution ample forensic evidence to prove a case against them.

And you still have not responded as to your knowledge of accounting and auditing principles, instead you attack the accounting profession. Me thinks some CPA told you he'd die before touching your records.
 
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Lukey

Senator
http://www.isn.ethz.ch/Digital-Library/Articles/Detail/?lang=en&id=91044
"To unravel the forces that brought us to this point, you have to trace a staggering web of international policies back about a half-century.

"In documenting its history, scholar Raj Patel came to the conclusion that the food crisis is not so much about food as it is about gaping global inequities. 'The reason people go hungry is not for a shortage of food,' he said in an interview. 'We have enough food to feed everyone. The reason people go hungry is that they are poor.'"

Capitalism produces enough food to feed every human being alive, yet millions starve to death every year? Might that have something to do with production-for-profit as opposed to production-for-need?
I think it has more to do with the governments of failed countries where people starve to death. I'm not sure where those stats come from but I'd be surprised if "millions of people" starve to death each year. I think there's certainly tens of millions (maybe hundreds of millions) who go hungry on a regular basis. Again, this is due to failed governments in Asia and Africa and also Central and South America. These failed states, every one of them, have eschewed capitalism. Whether it's outright communism in Asia, or the quasi-communism of the Middle East and Africa, or the hard socialism of Central and South America, these are the political/economic systems that produce grinding poverty and hunger. There's no one going hungry in any of the capitalist countries, unless it is due to (untreated) mental illness or by the will or through the negligence of unfit parents.

And this mentality of collectivism, that we all (the productive) have to enslave ourselves in service to all the people of the world who produce nothing, whether through personal or governmental failure to engage in productive endeavors, is complete horse crap. Yes, we have an obligation to help those less fortunate than ourselves - but through charity, not by accepting the yoke of communism, which relentlessly extinguishes the will to accomplish economic success, and (as I pointed out above) leads only to widespread poverty and starvation.
 

georgephillip

Governor
I think it has more to do with the governments of failed countries where people starve to death. I'm not sure where those stats come from but I'd be surprised if "millions of people" starve to death each year. I think there's certainly tens of millions (maybe hundreds of millions) who go hungry on a regular basis. Again, this is due to failed governments in Asia and Africa and also Central and South America. These failed states, every one of them, have eschewed capitalism. Whet
"Nearly half of all deaths in children under 5 are attributable to under nutrition. This translates into the unnecessary loss of about 3 million young lives a year. - See more at: http://data.unicef.org/nutrition/malnutrition.html#sthash.cge75ymc.YOuk3xjJ.dpuf"

I'm not sure if every failed state has "eschewed capitalism" or been looted by capitalism, but it seems obvious to me capitalism does a much better job of producing surpluses than distributing surpluses.
 

Lukey

Senator
"Nearly half of all deaths in children under 5 are attributable to under nutrition. This translates into the unnecessary loss of about 3 million young lives a year. - See more at: http://data.unicef.org/nutrition/malnutrition.html#sthash.cge75ymc.YOuk3xjJ.dpuf"

I'm not sure if every failed state has "eschewed capitalism" or been looted by capitalism, but it seems obvious to me capitalism does a much better job of producing surpluses than distributing surpluses.
On a positive note that study documents a huge overall improvement since 1990. And it will require a re-commitment to free market capitalism if that improvement is to continue, as arguably failing socialist (developed) countries in Europe (and us if we stay on the present course) will no longer have the resources to fund these efforts.
 

georgephillip

Governor
On a positive note that study documents a huge overall improvement since 1990. And it will require a re-commitment to free market capitalism if that improvement is to continue, as arguably failing socialist (developed) countries in Europe (and us if we stay on the present course) will no longer have the resources to fund these efforts.
Can a free market function without compound interest?

"The moral is that no matter how much technology increases humanity’s productive powers, the revenue it produces will be overtaken by the growth of debt multiplying at compound interest.

"The major source of loanable funds is repayments on existing loans, re-lent to finance yet new debts – often on an increasingly risky basis as the repertory of 'sound projects' is exhausted."

http://store.counterpunch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Killing-The-Host_PDF_V7.pdf(pp. 30-31)

Maybe a question that should be answered is this: is all income earned?
 

Lukey

Senator
Can a free market function without compound interest?

"The moral is that no matter how much technology increases humanity’s productive powers, the revenue it produces will be overtaken by the growth of debt multiplying at compound interest.

"The major source of loanable funds is repayments on existing loans, re-lent to finance yet new debts – often on an increasingly risky basis as the repertory of 'sound projects' is exhausted."

http://store.counterpunch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Killing-The-Host_PDF_V7.pdf(pp. 30-31)

Maybe a question that should be answered is this: is all income earned?
If we end the tax deduction for interest, return to a sound money policy and deregulate the markets that are keeping productive endeavors here on the decline in favor of financial engineering. Then yes, most certainly.
 

georgephillip

Governor
If we end the tax deduction for interest, return to a sound money policy and deregulate the markets that are keeping productive endeavors here on the decline in favor of financial engineering. Then yes, most certainly.
Which market regulations would you like to see lifted?
Does the following assessment of compound interest sound credible to you?

"One of Adam Smith’s contemporaries, the Anglican minister and actuarial mathematician Richard Price, graphically explained the seemingly magical nature of how debts multiplied exponentially.

"As he described in his 1772 Appeal to the Public on the Subject of the National Debt: Money bearing compound interest increases at first slowly. But, the rate of increase being continually accelerated, it becomes in some time so rapid, as to mock all the powers of the imagination.

"One penny, put out at our Saviour’s birth at 5% compound interest, would, before this time, have increased to a greater sum than would be obtained in a 150 millions of Earths, all solid gold.:eek:

"But if put out to simple interest, it would, in the same time, have amounted to no more than 7 shillings 4½d."
http://store.counterpunch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Killing-The-Host_PDF_V7.pdf(p.31)
 

Lukey

Senator
Which market regulations would you like to see lifted?
Does the following assessment of compound interest sound credible to you?

"One of Adam Smith’s contemporaries, the Anglican minister and actuarial mathematician Richard Price, graphically explained the seemingly magical nature of how debts multiplied exponentially.

"As he described in his 1772 Appeal to the Public on the Subject of the National Debt: Money bearing compound interest increases at first slowly. But, the rate of increase being continually accelerated, it becomes in some time so rapid, as to mock all the powers of the imagination.

"One penny, put out at our Saviour’s birth at 5% compound interest, would, before this time, have increased to a greater sum than would be obtained in a 150 millions of Earths, all solid gold.:eek:

"But if put out to simple interest, it would, in the same time, have amounted to no more than 7 shillings 4½d."
http://store.counterpunch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Killing-The-Host_PDF_V7.pdf(p.31)
Sarbanes Oxley, the Patriot Act, the ACA and Dodd Frank for starters. We need to at least get back to the level of regulation we had under Clinton, which is the last time our economy did really well. I'd like to see a set of regs be assigned to congress every year to revote them up or down. And maybe a law that says for every billion dollars of regulatory cost added, they must find an equal amount to do away with.

Compound interest (earnings really) are the secret sauce of capitalism (and prosperity). The excessive use of debt, like anything, is too much of a good thing. Market set rates, no tax deductions for interest expense, and sound money will go a long way toward returning our economy to how it operated in th e50s where people saved before buying stuff and businesses earned profits to fund expansion.
 

georgephillip

Governor
Compound interest (earnings really) are the secret sauce of capitalism (and prosperity). The excessive use of debt, like anything, is too much of a good thing. Market set rates, no tax deductions for interest expense, and sound money will go a long way toward returning our economy to how it operated in th e50s where people saved before buying stuff and businesses earned profits to fund expansion.
"Secret sauce of prosperity" or "Achilles's heel of finance-based growth":
http://store.counterpunch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Killing-The-Host_PDF_V7.pdf(p. 32)

"The moral is that the economy’s ability to produce and earn enough of a surplus to pay exponentially rising interest charges is limited. The more it is stripped to pay creditors, the less able it is to produce and pay as a result of unemployment, underutilization of resources, emigration and capital flight.

"In the two thousand years since the birth of Christ, the European economy has grown at a compound annual rate of 0.2 percent, far lower than the level at which interest rates have stood. Yet financial fortunes have crashed again and again – in part because interest payments have absorbed the revenue that otherwise would have been available for new direct investment.

"The inability of productive investment opportunities to keep pace with the expansion of credit is the Achilles heel of finance-based growth.

"How can compound interest be paid?

"Who will end up paying it?

"Who will receive it, and what will they do with it?

"If banks and a creditor class receive this money, will they spend it domestically to maintain balance, or will they drain the economy’s income stream and shift it abroad to new loan markets, leaving the economy strapped by the need to pay interest on the growing debt?

"If the state accrues this money, how will it recirculate it back into the economy?"
 
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