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Fact -When the Civil War started, Lincoln asked Robert E Lee to lead all Union troops

Discussion in 'History' started by make speed limit 45, Oct 14, 2018.

  1. trapdoor

    trapdoor Governor

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    That would be a matter of concern to the people in that square, wouldn't it? And those determinations were made long enough ago that reversing them now seems petty at best.
     
  2. middleview

    middleview President Supporting Member

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    People who live in that state...so explain the right wingers from around the country, whom you seem to support, having a say.

    When those statues were raised there was no safety for those who spoke against them...
     
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  3. middleview

    middleview President Supporting Member

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    Rommel was fighting for Germany, not the Nazis or the murder of millions of Jews.

    So?
     
  4. trapdoor

    trapdoor Governor

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    So Rommel's followers didn't have control of the German government 40 years after the war, and in the interim the country passed laws forbidding any memorial to the former Nazis. America has a broader notion of free speech, and still has individual states that can memorialize (publicly) howsoever they desire. Roughly 40 years after the Civil War, they desired to erect these statues, statues which now have a history of their own of more than a century.
    You keep ducking the central question. Lee fought for slavery neither more nor less than Washington -- so when is the Washington Monument coming down.
     
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  5. middleview

    middleview President Supporting Member

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    When did Washington fight to destroy the country. Lee did from 1861 to 1865.
     
  6. trapdoor

    trapdoor Governor

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    Washington voted to destroy A country, the British Empire. In winning, he extended the lifetime of slavery on the North American Continent by 32 years.
     
  7. middleview

    middleview President Supporting Member

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    1. He fought to end a colonial relationship. I don't suppose you'd see any statues to George in the UK. Do ya think?

    2. You act as if the colonials should have known that 60 years after the revolution that Britain would have abolished slavery and therefore continued as colonies....pretty bizarre argument there, Trap.
     
  8. trapdoor

    trapdoor Governor

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    Colonies were considered part of the Empire. By your lights he fought to end the Empire. In so doing, he extended slavery for 32 years as the British Empire outlawed the practice 32 years before it ended in the U.S.

    You act as though the CSA knew that people would disagree with it violently 150 years after it had ceased to exist. You evaluate Lee, Davis, and other CSA leaders based on 21st, not 19th, century morality. Pretty bizarre argument there, Mid.
     
  9. middleview

    middleview President Supporting Member

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    Are you kidding? The people responsible for secession certainly did know there would be a war. Some even welcomed it. By the time Lee signed up for the Confederate army the war had already begun.

    George Washington, by any stretch of the imagination, could not be accused of fighting a war to avoid the abolition of slavery 60 years later. Your arguments are getting loony.
     
  10. trapdoor

    trapdoor Governor

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    You normally read better than this. What I wrote was, "You act as though the CSA knew that people would disagree with it violently 150 years after it had ceased to exist." (Emphasis added).

    George Washington could easily be accused, on a much shorter timeline, of fighting a war to extend slavery. England banned slavery in 1833 -- plenty of Revolutionary War veterans were still alive at that point. Slavery in the U.S. didn't end until 1865 (well, 1867, but it's a legal quibble). Washington owned slaves and participated fully in the slave-based economy -- more fully actually than Lee, as the only slaves Lee ever owned he inherited, and he was working to free them when the war began. So tell me again when we start tearing down the Washington memorials.
     
  11. middleview

    middleview President Supporting Member

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    Silly question repeated over and over again doesn't make it less silly.

    It isn't about who owned slaves. It is about who fought to tear the country apart. Did Washington damage the British Empire? Yup. So now go find a statue of any of the colonial founding fathers on British soil.
     
  12. trapdoor

    trapdoor Governor

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    OK, then the racial component doesn't matter, as you said it did earlier, and what maters is "did they fight to destroy the Union?" the answer to which is, "no."

    As for a statue? No, but there's this: https://benjaminfranklinhouse.org/

    And yes, in the 1750s, Franklin owned and dealt in slaves.
     
  13. EatTheRich

    EatTheRich President

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    Fights over politics are always ultimately fights over economics.
     
  14. EatTheRich

    EatTheRich President

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    And went on to prove himself a liar by harassing loyal states.
     
  15. EatTheRich

    EatTheRich President

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    Yet the American Historical Association agrees with me ... unsurprisingly, since my position is confirmed unambiguously by primary sources. No, Lincoln’s goal was to secure the political supremacy of the manufacturing class, but to get that he needed allies in the petit-bourgeois democracy ... folks like Charles Sumner whose political goal was to free the slaves ... and finally the logic of events posed to him the alternative of freeing the saves or letting the slaveowners win the war.
     
  16. EatTheRich

    EatTheRich President

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    It’s in the Articles of Confederation. Which were rejected by the Framers of the Constitution as giving too little power to the federal government and too much to the states.
     
  17. EatTheRich

    EatTheRich President

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    For what 0vert act?
     
  18. EatTheRich

    EatTheRich President

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    Exactly. The Southern Democrats insisted it would ... or else.
     
  19. EatTheRich

    EatTheRich President

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    There were 3 major slave revolts. One of the main things animating the South was that any criticism of slavery by politicians not sufficiently fanatical in its defense would help inspire slave revolts.
     
  20. EatTheRich

    EatTheRich President

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    The real issue was the profits on commodities produced by slave plantations (cotton, sugar, but most of all child slaves).
     

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