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Facts On Social Security

Joe Economist

Council Member
(MarketWatch Article) — Recently, the president announced that he is willing to reduce the promises of Social Security to seniors. This change acknowledges what the Trustees of Social Security have said for years. Social Security is in need of immediate reform.

The change to the chained consumer price index is a benefit cut, one which will lower the buying power of seniors as they get older. Chained CPI does not measure inflation more accurately than the consumer price index. Chained CPI measures in part the behavioral response to inflation. Jargon aside, this change is a benefit cut.

While most Americans understand that Social Security is a vital program, there is very little consensus on its financial condition. Some experts say that the system has no problems. Others say that even if the system had problems, they can be fixed easily. While the perception of the problem may vary, we need to acknowledge some facts about the system.

According to the 2012 report of the Board of Trustees of the Social Security Trust Funds, the system has a $20.5 trillion shortfall, which should start affecting beneficiaries in 2033. That statement means anyone who is 47 or younger will retire after the trust funds are gone. It means anyone who is 64 or younger expects to live long enough to be affected by the forced benefit cuts. Also keep in mind that the trustees also offer less optimistic projections in which the trust fund is gone by 2027.

The shortfall of $20.5 trillion is larger than one year’s gross domestic product. That sum is more than Social Security has collected in all forms since inception. That figure will fall on someone. So the idea to change the CPI adjustment of Social Security is not throwing granny under the bus. It actually will save a granny in the future from a much larger bus.

Social Security the system is mostly financed not funded

It is false to say that Social Security has sufficient funds to pay full benefits until 2033. The $2.7 trillion held by the OASDI trust funds are the only funds that exist for Social Security, and would pay for about 3 ½ years of full benefits. The rest of the funding comes from paygo financing in which the system takes in payroll taxes in exchange for promises to pay future benefits. This is exactly the same as getting a loan from a bank in exchange for promises of future interest and principal payments.

The surplus exists only to the extent that you ignore the financing cost

The trust funds hold $2.7 trillion in the highest quality investments available. That money is however held against more than $20 trillion unfunded promises embedded in Social Security. The discussion of a surplus is a left-pocket, right-pocket argument where the left pocket has a lot of money and the right pocket has even more bills. The politicians want you to focus on the left pocket as though it doesn’t have to pay the bills in the right pocket.

Social Security benefits are not guaranteed

The Supreme Court ruled in Flemming v. Nestor that Social Security benefits are not a binding obligation of the federal government. Every worker in 1983 found out that Social Security benefits could be cut. The only reason that writers can claim that Social Security has paid every penny owed is because the system can reduce what it owes at the will of Congress.

Solvent is not the same as fixed

Most writers use the words solvent and fixed interchangeably even though the concepts are about $12 trillion apart. The 75-year solvency shortfall is $8.6 trillion, whereas the infinite shortfall is $20.5 trillion. To understand the difference: For $20.5 trillion, Social Security has no problem; $8.6 trillion dollars is the cost of making our problem a problem for our grandchildren. This change will not fix Social Security or even make it solvent.

Some writers find these facts troubling, and some don’t. The one thing that we know for certain is that the longer we do nothing, the bigger the bus grows.
 

OldGaffer

Governor
Social Security serves the purpose of keeping the vast majority of seniors out of poverty. You may think that is an ignoble use of government sevices, but as long as the majority of Americans want it, you are pissing in the wind.
 
It is pretty silly to compare the Social Security shortfall of $20.5 trillion---the infinite horizon shortfall, as you note---with one year of American GDP, for two reasons:

(1) America's GDP is expected to be MUCH larger in the future, due to the normal process of economic growth; and

(2) That shortfall need not be collected in one year, obviously; it needs to be collected over the period in question. Since this is the INFINITE horizon shortfall, you would take $20.5 trillion and divide that number by infinity. What do you get when you do that?

Medicare is in vastly more serious trouble than Social Security. Count me among those people who say that the problems with Social Security can be easily fixed.
 

fairsheet

Senator
Some insist that we mustn't even THINK to increase Social Security funding (taxation) by a dime, much less 5%. After all, were we to do so, the negative impact on our economy would be CATASTROPHIC!!!!

Yet...the very same people would have no problem with cutting Social Security disbursements by 5%, 10%. 20%...whatever it takes! And, the cognitive dissonance of it all, completely eludes them.
 

Joe Economist

Council Member
Social Security serves the purpose of keeping the vast majority of seniors out of poverty. You may think that is an ignoble use of government sevices, but as long as the majority of Americans want it, you are pissing in the wind.
It is your imagination that Social Security serves the purpose to keep any senior out of poverty. Social Security's benefit formula has more than 2700 rules, not one of which pays so much as a penny based on need. I think that facts are facts, and you hate each and every one of them.
 

Joe Economist

Council Member
It is pretty silly to compare the Social Security shortfall of $20.5 trillion---the infinite horizon shortfall, as you note---with one year of American GDP, for two reasons:

(1) America's GDP is expected to be MUCH larger in the future, due to the normal process of economic growth; and

(2) That shortfall need not be collected in one year, obviously; it needs to be collected over the period in question. Since this is the INFINITE horizon shortfall, you would take $20.5 trillion and divide that number by infinity. What do you get when you do that?

Medicare is in vastly more serious trouble than Social Security. Count me among those people who say that the problems with Social Security can be easily fixed.
Actually.... the 20.5 trillion dollar figure is a present value. I will count you among the people who don't want to hear the facts about the system.
 

OldGaffer

Governor
It is your imagination that Social Security serves the purpose to keep any senior out of poverty. Social Security's benefit formula has more than 2700 rules, not one of which pays so much as a penny based on need. I think that facts are facts, and you hate each and every one of them.
Lets use real world numbers.

socialsecuritypoverty.jpg

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/08/14/690661/social-security-poverty-77/

As CBPP’s Kathy Ruffing noted, Social Security is “the single most important source of income for its elderly beneficiaries, contributing on average two-thirds of income for recipients over age 65. For more than one-third of them, Social Security constitutes 90 percent or more of income…Without Social Security, nearly half of elderly Americans would live below the official poverty level; instead, fewer than 10 percent do.”

Conservatives — aided by a media content to misinform about the program’s finances — love scaremongering about Social Security, despite the fact that it is exceedingly easy to secure its solvency for decades to come. Any talk of cutting its benefits ignores the very real impact that it has on elderly, disabled, and young Americans.
But by all means, keep on trying to make us think you are not an unfeeling [Unwelcome language removed].
 

Joe Economist

Council Member
Lets use real world numbers.

View attachment 6052

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/08/14/690661/social-security-poverty-77/



But by all means, keep on trying to make us think you are not an unfeeling <img src=images/smilies/animated/censored.gif>.
One more time. Social Security has more than 2700 rules in its formula. NOT ONE pays benefits based on need. Social Security has no visibility into need.

Measuring need based on income when the person is retired is really pushing the limits of reason. Mind you, the income from Social Security is tax free. So you aren't even measuring apple to apple. Poverty of someone not working is measure by wealth not income. Median wealth of households headed by someone 65 and over is 47 times that of one headed by someone 35 and younger.

But by all means, keep on trying to make us think you are not an unthinking <img src=images/smilies/animated/censored.gif>
 

OldGaffer

Governor
One more time. Social Security has more than 2700 rules in its formula. NOT ONE pays benefits based on need. Social Security has no visibility into need.

Measuring need based on income when the person is retired is really pushing the limits of reason. Mind you, the income from Social Security is tax free. So you aren't even measuring apple to apple. Poverty of someone not working is measure by wealth not income. Median wealth of households headed by someone 65 and over is 47 times that of one headed by someone 35 and younger.

But by all means, keep on trying to make us think you are not an unthinking <img src=images/smilies/animated/censored.gif>
What you dont understand is that your numbers dont mean anything at all, we are going to continue to have social security, and they will raise the tax rate to cover the cost.What part of "they are not going to repeal social security" do you have a problem with ? I dont care about the 2700 pages, the results of social security is all that counts, and the results are 20 million folks are kept out of poverty. Do you dispute those figures?
 

EatTheRich

President
The Congressional Budget Office says an across-the-board increase of 13% (not 13% of income, but 13% of the rate being paid now) in income taxes is sufficient to cover the infinite shortfall.
 

Joe Economist

Council Member
The Congressional Budget Office says an across-the-board increase of 13% (not 13% of income, but 13% of the rate being paid now) in income taxes is sufficient to cover the infinite shortfall.
The figure that I have seen thrown around is to make Social Security you would have to increase the payroll taxrate by 4%. The existing payroll tax is 15.3% of which Social Security only gets 10.6%.

The big lie here is that Social Security operates in a vacuum. It doesn't. Raising taxes for Social Security makes the country less able to raise taxes for other uses like medicare, infrastructure or the debt. Let me guess, you are going to raise payroll taxes for medicare too. Now you aren't at 25% you are closer to 40%.

The other problem is that Social Security's return is already negative - it depreciates like a car. Is that the way you want to plan for retirement? The problem with Social Security is that it is now like spending a quarter to buy a dime. Your solution is that we agree our kids will spend a quarter to buy a nickel. Just genius.
 

Joe Economist

Council Member
What you dont understand is that your numbers dont mean anything at all, we are going to continue to have social security, and they will raise the tax rate to cover the cost.What part of "they are not going to repeal social security" do you have a problem with ? I dont care about the 2700 pages, the results of social security is all that counts, and the results are 20 million folks are kept out of poverty. Do you dispute those figures?
Yes I do dispute them. They are numbers for the numerically challenged. You can't measure poverty of someone who doesn't work by income. It is an issue of wealth. Poverty in households headed by someone 35 and under has doubled in the last 40 years. So we are taking money from people in poverty to give it to people who may be in poverty.

Social Security's name may be around in 10 years, but the system will not begin to look like what it does today.
 

Joe Economist

Council Member
What you dont understand is that your numbers dont mean anything at all, we are going to continue to have social security, and they will raise the tax rate to cover the cost.What part of "they are not going to repeal social security" do you have a problem with ? I dont care about the 2700 pages, the results of social security is all that counts, and the results are 20 million folks are kept out of poverty. Do you dispute those figures?
Yes I do dispute them. They are numbers for the numerically challenged. You can't measure poverty of someone who doesn't work by income. It is an issue of wealth. Poverty in households headed by someone 35 and under has doubled in the last 40 years. So we are taking money from people in poverty to give it to people who may be in poverty.

Social Security's name may be around in 10 years, but the system will not begin to look like what it does today.
 

OldGaffer

Governor
I think Joe EConomist gets his economics straight from Fox News.

The reason I say this is because he chooses to ignore facts that he does not like.
He also ignores the human cost of abolishing social security. Most people are not going to vote to put their parents and grandparents in a poor house or work farm, Joe is salivating to put his there.
 

OldGaffer

Governor
Fact #7: Most elderly beneficiaries rely on Social Security for the majority of their income.

For nearly two-thirds (65 percent) of elderly beneficiaries, Social Security provides the majority of their cash income. For more than one-third (36 percent), it provides more than 90 percent of their income. For one-quarter (24 percent) of elderly beneficiaries, Social Security is the sole source of retirement income.[21] (See figure below.)

Reliance on Social Security increases with age, as older people are less likely to work and more likely to have depleted their savings. Among those aged 80 or older, Social Security provides the majority of income for 76 percent of beneficiaries and nearly all of the income for 45 percent of beneficiaries
Another lying web site?

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3261

Fact #10: Social Security can pay full benefits through 2033 without any changes. Relatively modest changes would place the program on a sound financial footing for 75 years and beyond.
 
Actually.... the 20.5 trillion dollar figure is a present value. I will count you among the people who don't want to hear the facts about the system.
The fact remains that it is purely idiotic to suppose we need to have $20.5 trillion on hand, RIGHT NOW, to pay for benefits which will accrue over a 75-year (or longer) period of time. There is EVERY reason to believe that America will be a VASTLY richer society in 2050 than it is today.
 

Joe Economist

Council Member
The fact remains that it is purely idiotic to suppose we need to have $20.5 trillion on hand, RIGHT NOW, to pay for benefits which will accrue over a 75-year (or longer) period of time. There is EVERY reason to believe that America will be a VASTLY richer society in 2050 than it is today.
You use the word fact loosely. The fact remains that it isn't idiotic. It is actuarial. You may not like it but your likes and dislikes do not change facts.

The 75 year solvency figure is very different from the infinite because it does not include the financing cost of the system - ie the costs that accrue. If you are talking cashflow, meaning that you do not include the benefits which accrue over the 75 year time frame, you need 8.6 trillion.
 
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