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Greece struggles to find creditors

Discussion in 'Economics, Business, and Taxes' started by Max R., Apr 17, 2015.

  1. Queen Titania

    Queen Titania Senator

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    Maybe not but Civilization would not have grown without them, the Rich I mean --- it is more complex when we go into the Ancients. And slavery was not in the Ancient world as we think of it today.
     
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  2. georgephillip

    georgephillip Governor

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    You have more confidence in those who get rich from war and debt than I do. I see them as a cancer that poses an existential threat to our specie if their control over government is not curtailed. Judging by recent events in Greece, that isn't happening.
     
  3. Queen Titania

    Queen Titania Senator

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    I have no confidence in them what so ever. I have never argued for an hierarchy based on blood money and I abhor usury in any form.

    But we have been on this earth for a long time, this rotten system is exceedingly young - We had other systems which grew 'organically' out of us, I think it is important to re-look at those natural and ancient life springs in order to understand our true nature before falling into another shallow minded folly which is unnatural to us.
     
  4. georgephillip

    georgephillip Governor

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    There appears to have been a significant perturbation of human nature about the time agriculture replaced hunting and gathering societies. Surplus gave incentives to individuals to acquire more land, capital, and (slave) labor as hedges against the oligarchs over the hill. The struggle in Greece today is the latest manifestation of a rotten system which is young but fully capable of destroying the human specie if left unchecked.
     
  5. Queen Titania

    Queen Titania Senator

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    The hunters and gatherers and farmers lived quite happily side by side, trading with each other for longer than any recorded History --- but yes, it was when agriculture took over almost completely in the feeding of Civilizations --- and even then it was not always Land or resources which were the 'arguments' --- when Land grabs began and even then it was not until they wanted it all that surfdom appeared -------------- Oh but there are so many different cultures but Anthropology aside - Yes, but -Yes But ---- Look at the Ancient Civilizations from whence we get our knowledge, they had hierarchies without which we would never have had stability and thus Civilization and thus knowledge, what I mean to say from this is that hierarchy is part of a natural human structure but that it has been not just slightly corrupted but wholly corrupted and but allowed to grow simply because it is a usurped natural human structure.
     
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  6. Queen Titania

    Queen Titania Senator

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    ps at first the work of farming was done by all, for all ---- the hierarchy's had nothing to do with the making of profit for said farming produce - merchants were not law makers, now they are, now that are the Kings.
     
  7. georgephillip

    georgephillip Governor

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    What comes next in Greece? In this 33 minute TRNN interview with Paul Jay, two prominent Syriza supporters offer their take.
    Dimitri Lascaris is a partner with the Canadian law firm of Siskinds, where he heads the firm's securities class actions practice. Before joining Siskinds, he practiced securities law in the New York and Paris offices of a major Wall Street law firm. Last year, he was named by Canadian Business magazine as one of the 50 most influential business people in Canada, and was described by the magazine as "the fiercest advocate for shareholder rights" in Canada. He is currently prosecuting numerous securities class actions in Canada, including the Sino-Forest class action, in which his clients just negotiated the largest auditor settlement in Canadian history: a $117 million settlement with the accounting firm Ernst & Young.

    Michael Spourdalakis is a professor of political sociology and the Director at the Laboratory of Political Communication and Media Information at the University of Athens. He is currently co-director of the Canadian Studies Center at the University of Athens, and is the editor of The Socialist Register in Greece."

    At the end of the interview, Paul has the following exchange:
    "JAY: ...Dimitri, just a final word to you. I know you were elated when Syriza won and then you were increasingly concerned. What do you think comes next?

    LASCARIS: Well, you know, I fear for the worst. I don't really get a sense from the messages that are coming out of the bloc that is led by Germany that there is going to be a proposal put on the table that can be accepted by the government that will not precipitate a collapse in the government if it were to be accepted. And by the same token as I indicated, there's real doubt as to whether the government is remotely prepared for the eventuality of the collapse of the financial system and the issuance, the seizing of the banks and the issuance of a parallel currency.


    "I think most likely what we're going to see is a disorderly Grexit at this point..."

    "JAY: Michalis, you wanted to say one final thing.

    "SPOURDALAKIS: There is still, it is the turn of our leadership, the negotiations are still going on all night tonight. There is still a last chance. And the last chance to prevent all this is to say no and leave the negotiation table. And I'm pretty sure the support of the Greek people this time is going to be far more than 60 percent.


    LASCARIS: I agree with that. Absolutely. Absolutely.

    This is a coup.

    http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=14231
     
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  8. fairsheet

    fairsheet Senator

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    So now, the Greeks look to be settling for an even worse deal from the EU, than the one they voted against. This looks to me, like just another can-kicking exercise as I don't see any plan nor effort on the party of the EU, to turn Greece around and make it into an economic positive.

    They've done so for the likes of Portugal and Ireland?...so, why not Greece? At the risk of ruffling populist feathers, I'm guessing this is at least partly to do with the Greek people, and their willingness, and capabilities.
     
  9. georgephillip

    georgephillip Governor

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    [​IMG]
    What happened in 2008?
     
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  10. Queen Titania

    Queen Titania Senator

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    Dimitri Lascaris says the deal is a collective punishment of the Greek people for supporting a party that attempted to moderate neoliberalism in Europe

    http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=14243
     
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  11. fairsheet

    fairsheet Senator

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    As I consider "neo-liberalism" to be a silly and meaningless construct, I have a hard time taking people who employ it, seriously.

    Our 21st-Century world has evolved. It's not the west's "fault" that it's leaving Greece behind, anymore so that it's their "fault" that likes of Egypt, Pakistan, Burma, and whatever are being left behind.
     
  12. Queen Titania

    Queen Titania Senator

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    Neither do I like much of today's phraseology but if we wish to listen to political arguments we do needs understand it.

    Left behind? How can they be left behind they live here too.

    The US mishandling of the Banking crisis and then the US unloading its toxic debts on to the EU who in turn unloaded it onto Greece but you are now saying it's Greece's fault, they should have kept up?

    Egypt and Pakistan? Huh? Oh you mean they don't have Malls ---
     
  13. fairsheet

    fairsheet Senator

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    Yes, it's all America's - and through them, the EU's fault. Everything's their faults. In the meantime, the losers of the world continue losing, comforted by the fact that they're helpless victims and shall continue being so, 'til the days they die.
     
  14. Queen Titania

    Queen Titania Senator

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    I am saying that it is a consequence of the fact that the World is interdependent ---
     
  15. georgephillip

    georgephillip Governor

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    Your link:
    "LASCARIS: Yeah. And there have been other developments, too, within the party. The youth wing of Syriza issued a statement today in which it bitterly denounced the terms of the bailout. It didn't, I would say, directly criticize the leadership of Syriza but it's very clear that the youth wing is very unhappy with these terms and called for a protest to be held. The left platform has come out and denounced this deal. Apparently there's a communist wing within Syriza that sometimes issues its own statements. It too has bitterly condemned the deal.

    "I think that this is almost certainly going to precipitate a very serious rupture in Syriza within the next several days. Probably the government has the votes to pass this legislation because of the support of the neoliberal parties with which it has now regrettably allied itself. But how this government survives much longer once it loses its majority, that's entirely unclear."

    http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=14243

    What says Podemos?

    http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/15/spains-podemos-attacks-greek-bailout-deal.html
     
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  16. Queen Titania

    Queen Titania Senator

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    The Greek parliament has voted in favor of a bill enacting the reforms required by its European creditors as part of a new bailout plan. This paves the way for the controversial 85-billion-euro bailout deal defended by Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras.

    http://www.rt.com/news/273952-greece-vote-euro-bailout/


    :(
     
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  17. georgephillip

    georgephillip Governor

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    "Freshly out of the Greek Finance Minister’s chair, Yanis Varoufakis has declared that his German counterpart Wolfgang Schäuble wants to punish Greece – sacrificing it to reform the monetary union.

    "In his article forDie Zeit, Varoufakis said that the goal of the German finance minister is to 'discipline member states who opposed his very special plan to reform the eurozone by sharpening the social crisis in a controlled way.'

    "Grexit proposed by Schäuble is therefore only a tool.

    "One of the final aims of Schäuble is, according to Varoufakis, to supervise budget policy of the eurozone member states with a special structure which will be able to impose a veto on national budgets.

    "The Greek ex-finance minister wrote that Schäuble and other hardliners had told him at his first meeting of eurozone finance ministers that 'elections change nothing.'

    “'That infringes basic principles of western liberal democracy,' concluded Varoufakis. 'The consistency with which Dr. Schäuble advocates for a political union that contradicts the basic principles of a democratic federation is striking.'"
    "Elections change nothing,"
    Private bankers know better.
    Core Europe should admit their money didn't go to lazy Greeks, but, rather, to bankers who had already been bailed out, and, despite a face-value haircut, ended up "earning" even more profit from Greek misery.

    http://www.rt.com/business/273946-varoufakis-schauble-grexit-bailout/
     
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  18. Queen Titania

    Queen Titania Senator

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    We know elections change nothing --- most of the European public realize this ---- now more than ever because the undemocratic totalitarian EU overrides all sovereignty --- there are no more sovereign states within the EU and so there absolutely is no form of democracy left in Europe.

    Apart from the fact that Govs are always ruled by their backers anyway.

    But knowing this, as we do, does not change things does it? Because they own it all - and after TTIP we shall have no rights even over our own properties/Land/Homes/Nothing.
     
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  19. georgephillip

    georgephillip Governor

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    From one month ago...

    "The risk now is that by the time the shouting, bluffing, and finger-pointing finally gives way to realpolitik, Greeks may be living in what is effectively a third world country. As documented here extensively, the Greek economy is teetering on outright collapse, and irrespective of how long politicians on both sides are willing to redefine their own, self-imposed deadlines, a crisis of confidence on the ground in Greece could plunge the country into a state of emergency before EU officials have time to intervene.

    "On that point, we'll close with the following from Reuters which suggests that there are at least some people in Europe who understand the meaning of the word 'urgent':

    "The European Commission needs to make plans for a 'state of emergency' in Greece from July 1 if Athens does not reach an agreement with its creditors, Germany's EU Commissioner Guenther Oettinger said on Monday in Berlin.

    "'We should work out an emergency plan because Greece would fall into a state of emergency,' Oettinger, who is also a senior member of Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats said, citing the need to ensure access to energy and medicine.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-15/europe-warns-state-emergency-greek-stalemate-drags



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    Copyright ©2009-2013 ZeroHedge.com/ABC Media, LTD; All Rights Reserved.
     
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  20. freyasman

    freyasman Senator

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    http://www.themodernsurvivalist.com/archives/4304
    From the link;
    "Turns out that the greatest losers here are the Greeks. They basically got nothing and the austerity they will have to endure means years of misery ahead of them. You know you’re doomed when even the IMF believes that the demands you’ve been forced to accept are too hard.
    Predictably, the Greeks are mad and showing their discontent. Expect more to come, more protest, more demonstrations. Yes, more violence and more unrest in general, very much the same thing we saw in Argentina after the default."
     
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