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Growing evidence that "Russian collusion" was a set up...

EatTheRich

President
How can one chance encounter constitute a "continuing exchange of information?" The very notion is absurd!
1. It clearly wasn't a chance encounter. Kislyak went to the convention because he had things to discuss with the campaign.
2. It was, of course, one of many encounters between the Kremlin and the campaign.
 
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Arkady

President
Yes, the technical "crime" he committed by in-artfully wording his response to a question about communications with Russians by Trump surrogates:

Franken: "CNN just published a story alleging that the intelligence community provided documents to the president-elect last week that included information that quote, ‘Russian operatives claimed to have compromising personal and financial information about Mr. Trump.’ These documents also allegedly say quote, ‘There was a continuing exchange of information during the campaign between Trump's surrogates and intermediaries for the Russian government.’

"Now, again, I'm telling you this as it's coming out, so you know. But if it's true, it's obviously extremely serious and if there is any evidence that anyone affiliated with the Trump campaign communicated with the Russian government in the course of this campaign, what will you do?"

Sessions: "Senator Franken, I'm not aware of any of those activities. I have been called a surrogate at a time or two in that campaign and I didn't have — did not have communications with the Russians, and I'm unable to comment on it."

Franken was obviously referring to back channel and ongoing planning discussions, not casual one off conversations that every senator has with foreign dignitaries. Looks to me like you know you can't get the target charges about "collusion" to stick so you will settle for tarnishing reputations over completely phony "crimes" such as this one.

Look, I'm not a fan of Trump either; but, unlike you, I am a fan of the truth.
[/quote]

This wasn't in-artful wording. It was a clear untruth.

Franken clearly asked him what he'd do if anyone affiliated with the Trump campaign communicated with the Russian government in the course of the campaign. Notice, he didn't say "about the campaign." He didn't say "other than casual one-off conversations." He didn't say "excluding senators, who we should assume have regular conversations with Kremlin agents." He didn't say anything like that. His question was clear and simple, stripped of all the bullshit that months of months of work by dishonest right-wingers later tried to build up around it.

Sessions told him he wasn't aware of any such activities. That was a flat statement, also devoid of any of the qualifications the right-wing toadies have later tried to read into the text. Yet he was aware of such activities. Not only did he know of others in the Trump campaign who'd communicated with the Russian government during the course of the campaign, he'd done it himself. His strategic lie worked: if he hadn't deceived the Senate into thinking he knew of no such communications, he could have expected probing questions into the contents of the communications he was aware of. If he stonewalled those questions, it may have tilted the hearing against him and resulted in him not getting the job.... only two or three Senators would have to be turned off by his uncooperativeness to have tipped the vote the other way. But he successfully deceived the Senate, and they thought he didn't know about any such communications, and so couldn't probe further into the contents of those conversations. As intended, his lie eased the way to his confirmation.

Now, of course, the ass-licking brigade has to swoop in and clean Sessions' vile, stinking mess, by imagining some sort of sub-text in Franken's question that is nowhere present. They do so not because there's any intellectual basis for it, but rather because there is a compelling mandate to rewrite history any time a conservative breaks the law, and that means that the truth of the Franken/Sessions exchange has to be reworked. The truth is clear in the text, though. You ought to stop lying about it.
 

Arkady

President
Franken's words are self evident.
Exactly. And that's why I'm calling you a liar. His question was about what Sessions would do if he was aware of any communications between those in the Trump campaign and the Russian government, during the course of the campaign. Obviously, the "continuing exchange of information" between the Russian government and the Trump campaign could take many forms, from regular communications between two or more designated contacts, or irregular communications with lots of different members of the campaign, or some combination of the two. But Sessions didn't want to get into that, and he succeeded in avoiding tough questions by simply lying, by telling Franken he wasn't aware of any communications between those in the Trump campaign and the Russian government.... when, of course, he was aware of multiple such communications.

Why on earth would Sessions think Franken was asking if he'd ever bumped into a Russian and exchanged greetings at a public function?
Why on Earth would ANYONE imagine that such a communication wouldn't count as a communication between the Russian government and a member of the Trump campaign? Obviously it does. Now Sessions would have been able to say "I'm not aware of any such conversations, other than non-substantive exchanges of social pleasantries at public events." But that's not what he said. He wanted to avoid follow up questions about the contents of the communications he was aware of, so he simply lied and said he wasn't aware of any. And that lie served its intended function, by getting him confirmed without having to deal with difficult questions about why agents of the Russian government are Republican party social functions, etc.
 

Arkady

President
1. It clearly wasn't a chance encounter. Mislead went to the convention because he had things to discuss with the campaign.
2. It was, of course, one of many encounters between the Kremlin and the campaign.
Exactly. And even if Sessions only exchanged social pleasantries (which is a big stretch of an assumption), he'd still have a motivation to lie and claim he had no such conversations, however innocuous, because it would invite follow-up questions about the nature of the event, why the Russian agent was invited, how long he'd been on friendly terms with top Republicans, who he was talking to, what he was hoping to accomplish, etc. Sessions's lie successfully avoided any of that difficult follow-up.
 

Raoul_Luke

I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
1. It clearly wasn't a chance encounter. Kislyak went to the convention because he had things to discuss with the campaign.
2. It was, of course, one of many encounters between the Kremlin and the campaign.
Then why is Trump still in office???
 

Raoul_Luke

I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
This wasn't in-artful wording. It was a clear untruth.

Franken clearly asked him what he'd do if anyone affiliated with the Trump campaign communicated with the Russian government in the course of the campaign. Notice, he didn't say "about the campaign." He didn't say "other than casual one-off conversations." He didn't say "excluding senators, who we should assume have regular conversations with Kremlin agents." He didn't say anything like that. His question was clear and simple, stripped of all the bullshit that months of months of work by dishonest right-wingers later tried to build up around it.

Sessions told him he wasn't aware of any such activities. That was a flat statement, also devoid of any of the qualifications the right-wing toadies have later tried to read into the text. Yet he was aware of such activities. Not only did he know of others in the Trump campaign who'd communicated with the Russian government during the course of the campaign, he'd done it himself. His strategic lie worked: if he hadn't deceived the Senate into thinking he knew of no such communications, he could have expected probing questions into the contents of the communications he was aware of. If he stonewalled those questions, it may have tilted the hearing against him and resulted in him not getting the job.... only two or three Senators would have to be turned off by his uncooperativeness to have tipped the vote the other way. But he successfully deceived the Senate, and they thought he didn't know about any such communications, and so couldn't probe further into the contents of those conversations. As intended, his lie eased the way to his confirmation.

Now, of course, the ass-licking brigade has to swoop in and clean Sessions' vile, stinking mess, by imagining some sort of sub-text in Franken's question that is nowhere present. They do so not because there's any intellectual basis for it, but rather because there is a compelling mandate to rewrite history any time a conservative breaks the law, and that means that the truth of the Franken/Sessions exchange has to be reworked. The truth is clear in the text, though. You ought to stop lying about it.[/QUOTE]

He clearly framed it in terms of "a continuing exchange of information" How can one or two unrelated one-off conversations = "a continuing exchange of information?"
 

Raoul_Luke

I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
Exactly. And that's why I'm calling you a liar. His question was about what Sessions would do if he was aware of any communications between those in the Trump campaign and the Russian government, during the course of the campaign. Obviously, the "continuing exchange of information" between the Russian government and the Trump campaign could take many forms, from regular communications between two or more designated contacts, or irregular communications with lots of different members of the campaign, or some combination of the two. But Sessions didn't want to get into that, and he succeeded in avoiding tough questions by simply lying, by telling Franken he wasn't aware of any communications between those in the Trump campaign and the Russian government.... when, of course, he was aware of multiple such communications.



Why on Earth would ANYONE imagine that such a communication wouldn't count as a communication between the Russian government and a member of the Trump campaign? Obviously it does. Now Sessions would have been able to say "I'm not aware of any such conversations, other than non-substantive exchanges of social pleasantries at public events." But that's not what he said. He wanted to avoid follow up questions about the contents of the communications he was aware of, so he simply lied and said he wasn't aware of any. And that lie served its intended function, by getting him confirmed without having to deal with difficult questions about why agents of the Russian government are Republican party social functions, etc.
A "continuing exchange of information" means, well, a continuing exchange of information. You know, like negotiations - something you laughingly claim to be "expert" in. That implies something quite different from various innocent one-off exchanges, and any honest person would acknowledge that fact. That you don't shows exactly who the liar here is. And again, if there were any indication that your interpretation was supportable, and mine laughable, these individuals would be in prison right now. So the proof of which one of us is a liar is in the lack of any indictments for actual, you know, "collusion." Which is what this "investigation" is supposed to be about, isn't it?
 

justoffal

Senator
A "continuing exchange of information" means, well, a continuing exchange of information. You know, like negotiations - something you laughingly claim to be "expert" in. That implies something quite different from various innocent one-off exchanges, and any honest person would acknowledge that fact. That you don't shows exactly who the liar here is. And again, if there were any indication that your interpretation was supportable, and mine laughable, these individuals would be in prison right now. So the proof of which one of us is a liar is in the lack of any indictments for actual, you know, "collusion." Which is what this "investigation" is supposed to be about, isn't it?
A "witch hunt" Salem style is a no win scenario that assumes the demise of its target regardless of guilt. The investigation itself is patently lethal and only death is proof of innocence. The dunking chair was one such method.

Accused of being a Witch the subject was bound to a chair and lowered into a well until they were totally sumbmersed. After an impossibly long time they were hauled back up. A person who was not dead was construed to have supernatural " witch-like" powers and was immediately executed. The person who died of drowning was declared....get this one now....innocent.

Jo
 

Dawg

President
Supporting Member
A "witch hunt" Salem style is a no win scenario that assumes the demise of its target regardless of guilt. The investigation itself is patently lethal and only death is proof of innocence. The dunking chair was one such method.

Accused of being a Witch the subject was bound to a chair and lowered into a well until they were totally sumbmersed. After an impossibly long time they were hauled back up. A person who was not dead was construed to have supernatural " witch-like" powers and was immediately executed. The person who died of drowning was declared....get this one now....innocent.

Jo
as the Jackson witch hunt
 

EatTheRich

President
A "continuing exchange of information" means, well, a continuing exchange of information. You know, like negotiations - something you laughingly claim to be "expert" in. That implies something quite different from various innocent one-off exchanges, and any honest person would acknowledge that fact. That you don't shows exactly who the liar here is. And again, if there were any indication that your interpretation was supportable, and mine laughable, these individuals would be in prison right now. So the proof of which one of us is a liar is in the lack of any indictments for actual, you know, "collusion." Which is what this "investigation" is supposed to be about, isn't it?
If the many, many, "one-off exchanges" of which Sessions was aware had been disclosed to the Senate (if he had not lied about them), the Senate would have probed to see whether they were innocent or whether they involved negotiations.
 
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Raoul_Luke

I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
If the many, many, "one-off exchanges" of which Sessions was aware had been disclosed to the Senate (if he had not lied about them), the Senate would have proved to see whether they were innocent or whether they involved negotiations.
Look, I'm sympathetic!! I'm coming to despise Trump and would love to put him in the rear view mirror. But I won't join you witch hunters on the left because what you are attempting to do here is doing irreparable harm to the country we all supposedly love, in a craven effort to overturn a political election using a completely fabricated tale of campaign wrongdoing. If that were the case, the evidence (SOME EVIDENCE) of it would exist; that is exist outside the small minds of partisan leftists, I should add. And there simply is none. The whole effort is based on an "appearance of impropriety" argument that twists completely rational, reasonable and routine contacts between people in Trump's orbit and various "Russians" into a fake "collusive" effort to "steal" the election (with exactly zero evidence that any of these contacts were anything other than appropriate).
 

justoffal

Senator
Because he has powerful friends who put party and class before country.
Nope.... He's there because for the first time in a generation we had a smug, condescending, race baiting prick who wagged his hypocritical finger of shame for 8 nonstop years. The reaction was predictable.

Jo
 
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justoffal

Senator
Look, I'm sympathetic!! I'm coming to despise Trump and would love to put him in the rear view mirror. But I won't join you witch hunters on the left because what you are attempting to do here is doing irreparable harm to the country we all supposedly love, in a craven effort to overturn a political election using a completely fabricated tale of campaign wrongdoing. If that were the case, the evidence (SOME EVIDENCE) of it would exist; that is exist outside the small minds of partisan leftists, I should add. And there simply is none. The whole effort is based on an "appearance of impropriety" argument that twists completely rational, reasonable and routine contacts between people in Trump's orbit and various "Russians" into a fake "collusive" effort to "steal" the election (with exactly zero evidence that any of these contacts were anything other than appropriate).
They didn't learn when Reid changed the senate rules and they're not going to learn now either. All of this BS will happen to the next DEM President almost certainly.... And they will scream foul and unfair just like they did with Gorsuch.

Jo
 
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EatTheRich

President
They didn't learn when Reid changed the senate rules and they're not going to learn now either. All of this BS will happen to the next DEM President almost certainly.... And they will scream foul and unfair just like they did with Gorsuch.

Jo
They tried to do the same thing to the last Democratic president ... they just never got anywhere because he wasn't surrounded with people who broke the law as a matter of routine.
 
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