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Here's part of the reason people seem to be against Trump.

Your question is not clear. What bill would Congress make an effort to kill?
I hope President Trump does de-certify Obama's surrender to Iran. I hope Trump de-certifies everything Obama did while he was pretending to be president.
Sorry. "Bill" was the wrong word choice.

If Trump decertifies Iran, he will do so on the basis the Iranians have violated the "spirit" of the Iran Sanctions Nuclear Agreement Review Act.

This action will then require the US Congress to decide if it wants to renege on an agreement embodied in a UNSC Resolution, and one which both houses of congress passed overwhelmingly.

Are you in favor of congress killing the Iran Nuclear deal?
 

JackDallas

Senator
Supporting Member
Sorry. "Bill" was the wrong word choice.

If Trump decertifies Iran, he will do so on the basis the Iranians have violated the "spirit" of the Iran Sanctions Nuclear Agreement Review Act.

This action will then require the US Congress to decide if it wants to renege on an agreement embodied in a UNSC Resolution, and one which both houses of congress passed overwhelmingly.

Are you in favor of congress killing the Iran Nuclear deal?
I am in favor of Congress killing the Iran deal. Heavy sanctions should be levied against Iran and their bank accounts should be frozen. However, I don't have much faith in the Republican Congress. at this point, doing the right thing. The Democrats can always be counted on to vote against the best interest of The United States and Republicans have been acting like Democrats, of late. I would support the President if he decided to destroy Iran's nuclear site. It's just one more danger, Obama created and Trump will probably have to clean up the mess.
 

sear

Mayor
JD #83

Was it Roosevelt that coined the "carrot & stick" U.S. foreign policy idea?

If you wish to drop the carrot, and use the stick, go ahead.

BUT !!

Britain, France, Germany, China, Russia & Iran (the other signatories to the agreement you're addressing), seem to think breaking the agreement is a bad idea. To my knowledge none of them have done so, or advocated doing so.

Contempt for Obama is magnificent.
But the guys that reject EVERYthing Obama did as president should not be seen in public wearing trousers again.

Just how badly to they want to over-play their bias?
 
I am in favor of Congress killing the Iran deal. Heavy sanctions should be levied against Iran and their bank accounts should be frozen.
That would be a violation of a UNSC Resolution the US backed that embodied the Iran Sanctions Nuclear Agreement Review Act. The IAA has certified 8 times that Iran is in compliance with that Act, and that has been confirmed by Generals Mattis and Dunford and Secretary Tillerson, as well.

In effect, you are saying Trump should decertify this deal in spite of the fact Iran has lived up to their end of the agreement?
 

JackDallas

Senator
Supporting Member
That would be a violation of a UNSC Resolution the US backed that embodied the Iran Sanctions Nuclear Agreement Review Act. The IAA has certified 8 times that Iran is in compliance with that Act, and that has been confirmed by Generals Mattis and Dunford and Secretary Tillerson, as well.

In effect, you are saying Trump should decertify this deal in spite of the fact Iran has lived up to their end of the agreement?
That would be a violation of a UNSC Resolution the US backed that embodied the Iran Sanctions Nuclear Agreement Review Act. The IAA has certified 8 times that Iran is in compliance with that Act, and that has been confirmed by Generals Mattis and Dunford and Secretary Tillerson, as well.

In effect, you are saying Trump should decertify this deal in spite of the fact Iran has lived up to their end of the agreement?
The UN and the IAA cannot be trusted to give an honest appraisal of whether or not Iran is complying with the terms of the agreement. The two Generals and Tillerson are concerned that, if we scrap the agreement, The NoKos might not negotiate their nuclear proliferation agenda. They might not believe that the U.S. would keep any agreement made with the Trump government. I don't know if that's true or not. I'm not going to call the Generals and Tillerson, pussies. Trump appointed them for their experience and knowledge of foreign policy. He probably should defer to their expertise.
 

JackDallas

Senator
Supporting Member
JD #83

Was it Roosevelt that coined the "carrot & stick" U.S. foreign policy idea?

If you wish to drop the carrot, and use the stick, go ahead.

BUT !!

Britain, France, Germany, China, Russia & Iran (the other signatories to the agreement you're addressing), seem to think breaking the agreement is a bad idea. To my knowledge none of them have done so, or advocated doing so.

Contempt for Obama is magnificent.
But the guys that reject EVERYthing Obama did as president should not be seen in public wearing trousers again.

Just how badly to they want to over-play their bias?
Obama gave them $150 Billion to wage terrorism with. That one act should put him in prison.
 
The two Generals and Tillerson are concerned that, if we scrap the agreement, The NoKos might not negotiate their nuclear proliferation agenda. They might not believe that the U.S. would keep any agreement made with the Trump government.
That sounds reasonable, to me. North Korea would have little reason to negotiate an end to the Korean War if they thought Trump or his successor would simply change the terms after signing the agreement. I worry more about reports of how Trump's generals and other advisers have to constantly remind the president there is no military solution to North Korea.:eek:
 

JackDallas

Senator
Supporting Member
That sounds reasonable, to me. North Korea would have little reason to negotiate an end to the Korean War if they thought Trump or his successor would simply change the terms after signing the agreement. I worry more about reports of how Trump's generals and other advisers have to constantly remind the president there is no military solution to North Korea.:eek:
But there is a military solution to NoKo...blow the bastards up. should we wait until missiles are falling on (fruits and nuts) in California?
 

JackDallas

Senator
Supporting Member
JD #83

Was it Roosevelt that coined the "carrot & stick" U.S. foreign policy idea?

If you wish to drop the carrot, and use the stick, go ahead.

BUT !!

Britain, France, Germany, China, Russia & Iran (the other signatories to the agreement you're addressing), seem to think breaking the agreement is a bad idea. To my knowledge none of them have done so, or advocated doing so.

Contempt for Obama is magnificent.
But the guys that reject EVERYthing Obama did as president should not be seen in public wearing trousers again.

Just how badly to they want to over-play their bias?
Other than sending a drone to kill a terrorist leader, every so often, I can't think of anything positive, or not detrimental to Americans, that Obama did while in office.
 

Mr. Friscus

Governor
I can understand the boorish and vulgar Trump creating enemies for certain
It can rub people the wrong way, but when people care more about taking crude bad jokes seriously and literally rather than policy and worldwide issues... well, it's all about emotion and not about ideas.

Many great men in history have been brash, crude individuals. Winston Churchill would be a shining example.

The difference, of course, is that a Churchill would stand up to Nazi Germany, while a Barack Obama, if put in that situation, would not, much like Chamberlain did not.

Give me a personally immoral person who doesn't enforce those flawed morals onto the populace any day of the week when sovereignty, liberty, and a 1984 federal monster is on the line.
 

Arkady

President
You act as though your opinion as to why his polls fell is fact.
I've offered a plausible opinion about why Bush's polls fell. But the point wasn't to establish that reason -- maybe the fact he led our nation into a catastrophic war and the worst financial meltdown since the Great Depression had no impact on his popularity. It's conceivable. The point, though, was to establish that the reason he wound up hated by the large majority of Americans wasn't because he was a Republican. He was a Republican in early 2000, with opinion polls as high as 63%, and he was a Republican after 9/11 with the highest approval ratings in history. People demonstrated their ability to take the fact he was a Republican in their stride and yet still approve of him. So, to explain how he eventually wound up with approval as low as 25%, at a time when even only 57% of REPUBLICANS liked him, and practically nobody else did, it takes more than just the fact that he was a Republican.

My contention is that Bush's circumstances, and decisions, if Clinton's, would not nearly have been reported as negatively
If it had been Clinton, it would have been reported far more negatively, since he wouldn't have had the liberals in the press running interference for him. As happened with LBJ, when Vietnam got ugly, the liberals in the media would have turned on Clinton, along with the centrists and conservatives, and, like LBJ, he'd have been forced to give up the hope of even running for a second term. But since it was a Republican president, he could at least count on continued devotion from the Rupert Murdoch empire and the evangelical pulpits, letting him cling to enough support for a second term in the face of disastrous failure.

and his polling (almost as if by magic!) would have hovered at about 50%. That's the difference that tainting your sample on a day in day out basis makes.
Clinton's approval ratings weren't bullet proof. Early on, when the people were mostly judging him by the tirelessly negative reporting in the mainstream press, rather than by Clinton's actual results (which still weren't clear), he was very unpopular. Clinton's approval plunged as low as 37% in his first few months in office. Especially after their cronies in the Travel Office were fired for corruption, the mainstream press absolutely hated Clinton, and took every opportunity to belittle him:


Hell, Time hated Clinton so much they were still at it after he left office:


By comparison, at the same point in the Bush administration, the mainstream press was taking time to document the alleged misbehavior of outgoing Clinton staffers:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/04/us/bush-spokesman-catalogs-pranks-attributed-to-clinton-aides.html

But as much as the corporate press hated Clinton, they couldn't erase his results. Although they could hammer him down to Trump-like approval ratings in his first few months, gradually those ratings rose and rose, until he was the most popular outgoing president in the history of approval polling. Bush followed the opposite trajectory, as befits a miserable failure (amusingly, Bush's name came up first for so long when you Googled "miserable failure" that Google had to manually alter their algorithm to push him down the results list).

The press can have an impact on how a president is perceived, especially in his first year. It can savage him constantly, as with Clinton, driving his ratings into the 30s. Or it can build him up by essentially declaring criticism off limits, as it did with Bush after 9/11, pushing him up into the 90s. But eventually the people start to tune out the press and look at the actual results. At that point, the good presidents tend to rise and the bad ones tend to fall.
 

JackDallas

Senator
Supporting Member
I've offered a plausible opinion about why Bush's polls fell. But the point wasn't to establish that reason -- maybe the fact he led our nation into a catastrophic war and the worst financial meltdown since the Great Depression had no impact on his popularity. It's conceivable. The point, though, was to establish that the reason he wound up hated by the large majority of Americans wasn't because he was a Republican. He was a Republican in early 2000, with opinion polls as high as 63%, and he was a Republican after 9/11 with the highest approval ratings in history. People demonstrated their ability to take the fact he was a Republican in their stride and yet still approve of him. So, to explain how he eventually wound up with approval as low as 25%, at a time when even only 57% of REPUBLICANS liked him, and practically nobody else did, it takes more than just the fact that he was a Republican.



If it had been Clinton, it would have been reported far more negatively, since he wouldn't have had the liberals in the press running interference for him. As happened with LBJ, when Vietnam got ugly, the liberals in the media would have turned on Clinton, along with the centrists and conservatives, and, like LBJ, he'd have been forced to give up the hope of even running for a second term. But since it was a Republican president, he could at least count on continued devotion from the Rupert Murdoch empire and the evangelical pulpits, letting him cling to enough support for a second term in the face of disastrous failure.



Clinton's approval ratings weren't bullet proof. Early on, when the people were mostly judging him by the tirelessly negative reporting in the mainstream press, rather than by Clinton's actual results (which still weren't clear), he was very unpopular. Clinton's approval plunged as low as 37% in his first few months in office. Especially after their cronies in the Travel Office were fired for corruption, the mainstream press absolutely hated Clinton, and took every opportunity to belittle him:


Hell, Time hated Clinton so much they were still at it after he left office:


By comparison, at the same point in the Bush administration, the mainstream press was taking time to document the alleged misbehavior of outgoing Clinton staffers:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/04/us/bush-spokesman-catalogs-pranks-attributed-to-clinton-aides.html

But as much as the corporate press hated Clinton, they couldn't erase his results. Although they could hammer him down to Trump-like approval ratings in his first few months, gradually those ratings rose and rose, until he was the most popular outgoing president in the history of approval polling. Bush followed the opposite trajectory, as befits a miserable failure (amusingly, Bush's name came up first for so long when you Googled "miserable failure" that Google had to manually alter their algorithm to push him down the results list).

The press can have an impact on how a president is perceived, especially in his first year. It can savage him constantly, as with Clinton, driving his ratings into the 30s. Or it can build him up by essentially declaring criticism off limits, as it did with Bush after 9/11, pushing him up into the 90s. But eventually the people start to tune out the press and look at the actual results. At that point, the good presidents tend to rise and the bad ones tend to fall.
Bill Clinton could have butt-humped a ten-year-old boy in Times Square and Liberals would still have supported him and excused his crimes against women and his do-nothing presidency. You still slobber over the POS today.
 
With both Bush and Trump, I could understand why most Americans disliked them strongly, though in each case the reason was a little different.

(1) Trump is a deliberately insulting person. He's vulgar, mean-spirited, absurdly vain, corrupt, passionately bigoted, and so dishonest that if he were a character in a book he'd be too broad for anything other than the silliest of farces. He's almost a caricature -- as if he's intentionally playing the "heel" character from the professional wrestling circuit he used to be a part of. He's the kind of person who was hated long before going into politics, often by those closest to him --- his own wife swore under oath that he raped her, for example.

(2) Bush, on a personal level, wasn't as hateful. In fact, he rode a certain boyish charm to power. His brand was "compassionate conservatism," and he was an upstanding family man. He at least feigned normal levels of humility, and was reasonably dignified. With him, most people didn't start out hating him. In fact, at one point in his first term, he had something over 90% approval. The hate grew gradually, based not on his personality, but rather on his leadership. He led us to pretty much across-the-board catastrophe. Unemployment and poverty soared, the stock market collapsed, record surpluses vanished, record deficits were created, a botched disaster recovery nearly destroyed a great American city, a trillion-dollar misstep in Iraq resulted in thousands of dead Americans and a complete loss of credibility on the world stage, and we stumbled into two recessions, including the worst since the Great Depression. Still, even though he was so shockingly incompetent, it was hard to hate him, personally, which is why many viewed him a bit like the Will Ferrell impersonation of him -- a shallow dimwit being manipulated by the evil Darth Cheney).

It's harder to understand Obama Derangement Syndrome, or Clinton Derangement Syndrome, since neither fell into those categories. Each approached the office with a normal level of restraint. Neither was deliberately insulting. Neither lied more than is usual for a politician. And both presided over nearly across-the-board improvements for the nation. Yet, on the right, the seething hatred for the two outshines anything directed against Trump and Bush. Granted, for the most part Clinton and Obama were far more popular than Trump and Bush, so the derangement didn't spread wide within the population. But where it caught on, it was overwhelming. And the same is true when it comes to Hillary Clinton.
Indeed:

Clinton's polling numbers went up in the wake of the deplorables comment. It pissed off the halfwits and the sub-human scum who were embarrassed to realize that people recognized how deplorable they were, but they already supported Trump, so it made no difference what they thought.
 

Arkady

President
Bill Clinton could have butt-humped a ten-year-old boy in Times Square and Liberals would still have supported him and excused his crimes against women and his do-nothing presidency. You still slobber over the POS today.
The liberals were tough on Clinton and remain so to this day. I realize that you live within an enclosed media bubble consisting of Fox News and similar "right wing propaganda for dummies" outlets. But step outside that bubble and read what actual liberal outlets had to say about Clinton. Clinton represented a vision that the liberals hated: a triangulating approach to politics that coopted Republican ideas and toned down liberalism. The liberals thought that DLC approach would fail. They weren't completely happy when it succeeded. But even they had to recognize good results when they happened. Even if you saw Bill Clinton as a center-right Wall Street tool and a wolf in sheep's clothing, it's hard to deny that on his watch poverty plunged, middle class incomes soared, and things became markedly better for the groups the liberals care about. So, Clinton won a grudging respect from them.

If you don't believe me, ask some of the farther-left members of this forum what they think of Clinton.
 

JackDallas

Senator
Supporting Member
The liberals were tough on Clinton and remain so to this day. I realize that you live within an enclosed media bubble consisting of Fox News and similar "right wing propaganda for dummies" outlets. But step outside that bubble and read what actual liberal outlets had to say about Clinton. Clinton represented a vision that the liberals hated: a triangulating approach to politics that coopted Republican ideas and toned down liberalism. The liberals thought that DLC approach would fail. They weren't completely happy when it succeeded. But even they had to recognize good results when they happened. Even if you saw Bill Clinton as a center-right Wall Street tool and a wolf in sheep's clothing, it's hard to deny that on his watch poverty plunged, middle class incomes soared, and things became markedly better for the groups the liberals care about. So, Clinton won a grudging respect from them.

If you don't believe me, ask some of the farther-left members of this forum what they think of Clinton.
You're so full of shit. You clowns worship the bag of pus. Look at all the morons who were crying, screeching, screaming, losing what was left of their tiny minds, tearing their clothes, pouring ashes on their heads and seeking psychiatric help and safe spaces to cope with her loss. Truth be known, and we'll never know the truth about you because you are incapable of telling the truth but I have no doubt that you were holed up in your safe space, in your home in a gated community, in Massaf**king chusetts, crying and wringing your hands, calling out to whatever was your god du jour...why...why...oh why, how can I go back to PJ and face all those bad men and women there, who are going to laugh at me and make me feel just awful?
 

JackDallas

Senator
Supporting Member
The liberals were tough on Clinton and remain so to this day. I realize that you live within an enclosed media bubble consisting of Fox News and similar "right wing propaganda for dummies" outlets. But step outside that bubble and read what actual liberal outlets had to say about Clinton. Clinton represented a vision that the liberals hated: a triangulating approach to politics that coopted Republican ideas and toned down liberalism. The liberals thought that DLC approach would fail. They weren't completely happy when it succeeded. But even they had to recognize good results when they happened. Even if you saw Bill Clinton as a center-right Wall Street tool and a wolf in sheep's clothing, it's hard to deny that on his watch poverty plunged, middle class incomes soared, and things became markedly better for the groups the liberals care about. So, Clinton won a grudging respect from them.

If you don't believe me, ask some of the farther-left members of this forum what they think of Clinton.
I did ask some of your butt-buddies how they feel about Clinton:
 

Attachments

sear

Mayor
"Obama gave them $150 Billion to wage terrorism with. That one act should put him in prison." JD #87
Ah.
So a small fraction of the harm President Bush inflicted by lying U.S. into War then.
"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt, that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."
U.S. President Bush (the younger) televised address to the U.S. March 17th, 2003


So in your parallel universe it's Obama that deserves the indictment, but the catastrophe Bush is responsible for doesn't even merit mention.

"Fascinating."
" I can't think " JD #90
The good news is, it's probably mostly crippling political bias, and not purely intellectual deficiency.
But the end result is the same.

btw
History may show Obama to have been an above average president, though it's true he may look even better than that, in contrast to the presidents before and after him.
 

Arkady

President
You're so full of shit. You clowns worship the bag of pus. Look at all the morons who were crying, screeching, screaming, losing what was left of their tiny minds, tearing their clothes, pouring ashes on their heads and seeking psychiatric help and safe spaces to cope with her loss. Truth be known, and we'll never know the truth about you because you are incapable of telling the truth but I have no doubt that you were holed up in your safe space, in your home in a gated community, in Massaf**king chusetts, crying and wringing your hands, calling out to whatever was your god du jour...why...why...oh why, how can I go back to PJ and face all those bad men and women there, who are going to laugh at me and make me feel just awful?
There are at least two posters here who are to the left of me — Eat The Rich and George. Why don’t you test your little theory and ask them what they think of Clinton?
 
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