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Hope, Change, and the Economic Tsunami of 2008-2009

imreallyperplexed

Council Member
With Congress back in session and the State of the Union address tonight and the Florida primary next week, it is fair to say that the campaign season will now be in full swing. One thing that I am sure we well here over and over from the Republican side is some refrain on Sarah Palin's "How's That Hopey-Changey Thing Going for You?" schtick. So I think that it is worth reviewing a little history from 2008-2009.

It is a fact that the Obama campaign developed the Hope and Change campaign theme in 2007 in a very different political and economic environment than was in place when Obama took office in late January 2009. In particular, Obama secured the nomination in June of 2008. Though there were clouds on the horizon over the summer of 2008. the economic tsunami of 2008/2009 hit the country with the collapse of Lehmen Brothers in September 2008 and was just building up steam in November 2009 when Obama was elected. This economic tsunami continued to wreak havoc until the summer of 2009 when a very tepid and slow recovery began. It was a single economic tsunami that occurred over the end of an old administration and the begining of a new administration.

The point here is that "hope and change" looked very different before September 2008 than it did after September 2009. Events matter. "Hope and change" as it was presented in the primary contest between Clinton and Obama was not totally fitting for a post-Lehmann Brothers economic environment. An FDR-like "There is nothing to fear but fear itself" type slogan might have been more appropriate. (Of course, FDR came into office in 1933 when the original Wall Street crash was in 1929.)

In any case, a question that I ask myself as someone who did vote for Obama in 2008 is, given that the economic tsunami occurred, how did the U.S. economy and the Obama Administration perform and would John McCain and a Republican Congress have done better? So I look at the real numbers, In January 2009, the economy lost 750,000 jobs and GDP was shrinking at a rate of 6%/month. In December 2011, the economy added 200,000 jobs and was growing at a rate of 2%/month. Now, people can argue that the economy could have bounced back more swiftly. Maybe. (But New Orleans is STILL recovering from Katrina 7 or 8 years after the event.) Whether or not that is the case, I feel quite certain that John McCain would be bragging about that kind of performance (and I grant that Democrats would probably be talking about how terrible the economy was.) All that said, though I still think that there is a long way to go, I do think that the worst is over and things are headed in the right direction. I also believe that President Obama deserves SOME (but not ALL) credit for this. (I am also certain that there are some on the right who vehemently disagree with me on this and that is fine.)

So, for me, the real economic question is who do I think is likely to do best to spur long term, sustainable economic growth over the next four years and establish robust economic recovery. I see three basic alternatives - the mainstream Keynesianism of JFK and Bill Clinton, the mainstream supply side approach of Reagan and Bush. or the "gold standard" approach of Ron Paul. Obama represents the mainstream Keynesianism of JFK and Clinton. Romney and Gingrich represent the mainstream supply-side approach of Reagan and Bush. Ron Paul is Ron Paul. I am much more comfortable with the mainstream Keynesianism of JFK, Clinton, and Obama. But there is plenty of room to debate the merits of the three approaches. It will be interesting to watch the debates develop as events unfold.
 

imreallyperplexed

Council Member
As it turns out, I might have anticipated the State of the Union and the response from Mitch Daniels. The President was clearly presenting a mainstream Keynesian approach. Mitch Daniels was clearly selling a mainstream supply-side approach. They both seemed to do a decent job in a technical sense. Unsurprisingly, I found Obama much more convincing.

Well done.
 

Huskyoverlord

Council Member
As it turns out, I might have anticipated the State of the Union and the response from Mitch Daniels. The President was clearly presenting a mainstream Keynesian approach. Mitch Daniels was clearly selling a mainstream supply-side approach. They both seemed to do a decent job in a technical sense. Unsurprisingly, I found Obama much more convincing.
Of course you did , that's how became president but did he talk himself into a hole??? He said if he didn't have us fixed and back on our feet in 3 years he didn't deserve a second term and he doesn't seem to be a man of his word. Obama was another 4 years of bush just in a better looking better spoken package. The common thread between obama and bush is they had the same boss , corporate america , you know the treasonist group of amoral theives that destoryed america.
 

OldGaffer

Governor
One man had a positive attitude and did not talk about gutting social programs and cutting taxes on the 1%, the other was pure austerity and tax cuts for the 1%, you may still believe that trickle down economics is a good idea, but for me, Obama had a much better vision. To me, the republican vision leads to Soylent Green for my grandchildren and the Democratic approach leads to Star Trek.
 

Huskyoverlord

Council Member
One man had a positive attitude and did not talk about gutting social programs and cutting taxes on the 1%, the other was pure austerity and tax cuts for the 1%, you may still believe that trickle down economics is a good idea, but for me, Obama had a much better vision. To me, the republican vision leads to Soylent Green for my grandchildren and the Democratic approach leads to Star Trek.
yeah with us being the borg , you will be assimalated
 

TomFitz

Mayor
There's the contrast in the tone of the two speeches as well.

Obama outlines challenges, offers proposals and challenges everyone to work together.

Daniels was peevish in tone and full of negativism and fear mongering.
 

TomFitz

Mayor
The right wing noise machine is in its second day of working this talking point.

The entire Keystone XL pipeline campaign is chock full of lies.

But it's evident that it is becoming talk radio gospel, so that the Fox Noise, talk radio crowd accept it as gospel regardless of what the real facts are (which Fox isn't about to tell them).

The State of Nebraska rejected the Keystone XL route through the Sand Hills months ago. This is the only route under review by the State department.

The investor's lobbyists thought they could go to the API and steamroller an Administration that appeared weak into bullying Nebraska into changing its mind.

It didn't work.

The investors in the Keystone XL pipeline announced that they were looking at an alternate route withing two days of the Administration's initial announcement. This route has NOT been reviewed by the State department for three years as the talking point goes.

Moreover, construction on the portions of the Keystone XL line that are not in question is slated to begin soon. So there will be plenty of jobs, lending the lie to that talking point as well.

The investors never seriously considered a trans Canada line to sell oil to China, as many right wing bloggers claimed, either.

As for Warren Buffet. There is no evidence at all that Buffet would withhold campaign contributions from the Obama campaign if the pipleine went forward. The Times article doesn't say that. it's only your projection. BNSF was always going to get business hauling oil from tar sands. It's hauling from the Bakken range as well. But no railroad has ever successfully competed with a pipeline in the long run.

This is yet another one of those noisy right wing scams, designed to support a standard conservative meme.

If you've ever wondered why right wing media gets so little respect and why we often are condescending to the sort of people who spout this stuff, this is why.

This is a campaign built on lies. And it is a very common tactic in conservative media.

The people who put these things together are invariably lobbyists. This one was manufactured by the American Petroleum Institute. The "death panel" lie, another good example of the genre was manufactured by America's Health Insurance Plans, an insurance industry lobby.

I know that the talk radio crowd will yell Keystone pipeline for months. The facts are irrelevant. The story was designed to appeal to the "drill baby drill" crowd. It doesn't matter weather it's true or not. It's what they wanted to hear.

This is the reason that a lot of people don't respect many on the far right, and why almost no one outside that bubble has any respect for conservative media.

It's a media that repeatedly markets these sorts of lies and an uncritical audience that accepts them at face value, no matter how many times they get conned.
 

JackDallas

Senator
Supporting Member
One man had a positive attitude and did not talk about gutting social programs and cutting taxes on the 1%, the other was pure austerity and tax cuts for the 1%, you may still believe that trickle down economics is a good idea, but for me, Obama had a much better vision. To me, the republican vision leads to Soylent Green for my grandchildren and the Democratic approach leads to Star Trek.
You are seriously misguided and naive. If you really believe the lies you just told then your life is ruined forever, and so are the lives of your grandchildren.
 

Figjam

Mayor
...you realize of course tsunami's do not start on their own - the build as the result of the economic shock-wave started in 2003 with the deep tax cuts and extensive military spending orgy of the previous administration - but I digress...

...please, feel free to continue your hate fest...
 

imreallyperplexed

Council Member
HO,

I think that you did a great job of capturing the challenge for Obama and the Democrats. Personally, as I have said a couple of other places, I would have liked to see him talk a bit more about deficit reduction and entitlement reform. I think that both are important issues. As strange as this sounds, I think that the Republicans may have some reasonable ideas on deficit reduction and entitlement reform. I just think that the overall "supply-side" approach is dangerous and has already created a lot of the problems that we faced. This stuff was rolled up in the speech in a couple of places but was not as explicit as it could have been,

Of course you did , that's how became president but did he talk himself into a hole??? He said if he didn't have us fixed and back on our feet in 3 years he didn't deserve a second term and he doesn't seem to be a man of his word. Obama was another 4 years of bush just in a better looking better spoken package. The common thread between obama and bush is they had the same boss , corporate america , you know the treasonist group of amoral theives that destoryed america.
 

Lukey

Senator
HO,

I think that you did a great job of capturing the challenge for Obama and the Democrats. Personally, as I have said a couple of other places, I would have liked to see him talk a bit more about deficit reduction and entitlement reform. I think that both are important issues. As strange as this sounds, I think that the Republicans may have some reasonable ideas on deficit reduction and entitlement reform. I just think that the overall "supply-side" approach is dangerous and has already created a lot of the problems that we faced. This stuff was rolled up in the speech in a couple of places but was not as explicit as it could have been,
What you refer to as "supply side" is really "big government."

Spending = taxes (current + deferred). Look back at the past 20 years. When was the only time since we started cutting current taxes that we also curtailed spending (IOW not just go about the business of spending that raised deferred taxes)? Duh! The latter part of the Clinton Administration! Clinton was our only (true) supply sider. And how did the economy respond? Were wages rising at the same time wealth was rising? You lefties should be proud of that fact and should be working to take us back to the idea that "the era of big government is over..."
 

imreallyperplexed

Council Member
No Jack. Actually, I wasn't wondering about that. Because the project has not been definitively cancelled. Provided sufficient reviews are done, it could come back to life. If you were the government, should you approve the first deal that comes along because Republicans were making it a political football? If it turns out to be a good project by all measurements, it will get approved.

Do you wonder why Obama won't approve the Keystone pipeline deal. It would cost him campaign money.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jan/24/buffett-would-profit-keystone-cancellation/
 

Lukey

Senator
No Jack. Actually, I wasn't wondering about that. Because the project has not been definitively cancelled. Provided sufficient reviews are done, it could come back to life. If you were the government, should you approve the first deal that comes along because Republicans were making it a political football? If it turns out to be a good project by all measurements, it will get approved.
Total Jobs 2008...... 136,790

Total Jobs 2011(p)... 131,159

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/empsit.ceseeb1.txt
 

imreallyperplexed

Council Member
Lukey,

I understand where you are coming from. The one problem that I have is whether you are talking about Ron Paul supply side (which is Austrian/small government supply side) or whether you are talking about Paul Ryan/Mitt Romney/Newt Gingrich supply side (which is according to Ron Paul "big governent supply side.")

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/11/ron-paul-tells-iowans-the_n_847775.html

In my post, I indicated that there were three approaches being proposed this year. They are:

1. Mainstream keynesianism (big government/big corporation/demand-side + targeted investment on the supply side) - Obama
2. Mainstream supply-side (mid-sized government/big corporation and big finance with investment and market research all done in the private sector) - Ryan/Romney/Gingrich
3. Austrian (small government and small business and tight money) - Ron Paul

I think that you tend to switch from the mainstream supply-side to the Austrian side without realizing that they are two distinct models with different sorts of implications. The Austrian model is light on big adminstrative bureaucracies in the public or private sector. The mainstream supply-side model is relatively light on public sector administration but is quite heavy on big private sector bureaucracies.

What you refer to as "supply side" is really "big government."

Spending = taxes (current + deferred). Look back at the past 20 years. When was the only time since we started cutting current taxes that we also curtailed spending (IOW not just go about the business of spending that raised deferred taxes)? Duh! The latter part of the Clinton Administration! Clinton was our only (true) supply sider. And how did the economy respond? Were wages rising at the same time wealth was rising? You lefties should be proud of that fact and should be working to take us back to the idea that "the era of big government is over..."
 

Lukey

Senator
Lukey,

I understand where you are coming from. The one problem that I have is whether you are talking about Ron Paul supply side (which is Austrian/small government supply side) or whether you are talking about Paul Ryan/Mitt Romney/Newt Gingrich supply side (which is according to Ron Paul "big governent supply side.")

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/11/ron-paul-tells-iowans-the_n_847775.html

In my post, I indicated that there were three approaches being proposed this year. They are:

1. Mainstream keynesianism (big government/big corporation/demand-side + targeted investment on the supply side) - Obama
2. Mainstream supply-side (mid-sized government/big corporation and big finance with investment and market research all done in the private sector) - Ryan/Romney/Gingrich
3. Austrian (small government and small business and tight money) - Ron Paul

I think that you tend to switch from the mainstream supply-side to the Austrian side without realizing that they are two distinct models with different sorts of implications. The Austrian model is light on big adminstrative bureaucracies in the public or private sector. The mainstream supply-side model is relatively light on public sector administration but is quite heavy on big private sector bureaucracies.
I thought I was being clear (sorry). I endorse "era of big government is over, entreprenurial capitalism" - Bill Clinton!
 

imreallyperplexed

Council Member
Keystone involves infrastructure and regulations and adminstration related to infrastructure. It is not the ONLY infrastructure project available. You are concerned with the stimulative effect of Keystone. That is important but there are lots of other projects that could have similar stimulative effects and perhaps the overall Cost-Benefit picture would be better. The big problem now is that without a full blown study, you cannot get a realistic estimate of the costs and business folks tend to hype the expected benefits. When the project is finished, often the businesses are richer but the country has gotten less bang for its buck than it might have.

For someone who had such a nose for Y2K BS, you seem to think that potential Keystone BS smells like a rose. You need to tighten up your skepticism. You might be getting taken. Or perhaps Keystone is important because it is a political football.

Total Jobs 2008...... 136,790

Total Jobs 2011(p)... 131,159

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/empsit.ceseeb1.txt
 
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