I am shocked, shocked, to find out Krugman was wrong...

[Bugsy McGurk]

So then you agree that the economy is poor and lower interest rates are an inevitability? Every time you post I am reminded of this classic scene:

Nope. I agree with what I said above.

You’re just too deplorable to confront what I actually said.

 

[Raoul_Luke]

Nope. I agree with what I said above.

You’re just too deplorable to confront what I actually said.

As usual, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Either Trump actually did "fix the economy" and rates need to go up, or he didn't and he's correct that rates need to go down. It simply must be one or the other, and you are incapable of taking either position because either one pins you in a lie.

 

[Bugsy McGurk]

As usual, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Either Trump actually did "fix the economy" and rates need to go up, or he didn't and he's correct that rates need to go down. It simply must be one or the other, and you are incapable of taking either position because either one pins you in a lie.

You just let me know if you can muster up some candor and confront what I actually said.

I am not hopeful.

 

[Spamature]

This is not great Britain and the poor let themselves be poor

You aren't even following the discussion. Had you, you would have known we were not discussing the US or Britain. We were discussing economic policy promoted here by wingers that had shown to have failed when it was tried in other countries.

 

[llovejim]

No. You don't seem to grasp the concept. I hold everyone involved responsible for debt accumulation. The two people being discussed are George W. Bush and Barack Hussein Obama. Obviously, as president, Bush is responsible for debt accumulation. The buck stops there. The buck also passed through every Senator and House Rep's hands.

Now can you show how much of the deficit Obama voted against as Senator? Yes or no?

what part of you have to spend your way out of a recession do you not understand? should we have let states who by their own laws cannot deficit spend just lay off even more millions nationwide while we are in an economic downspin without giving these states federal funding to keep these workers employed, our kids in school, our roads being maintained, our police and firefighters on the job? should we let two of the 3 American carmakers go belly up and put millions more carworkers, and vendors, and others associated with those companies go out of work when millions are being laid off? should we let big banks fail and tighten the credit crunch when new construction and improvements came to a stop during the bush recession, throwing even more millions out of work and reducing even further tax revenues? did you not learn from Hoover's "the government can do nothing" policies after the crash of '29 and the recession began to 1932 when it became so destructive and was then called the Great Depression? sure it increases the hell out of deficit spending, but it sure does keep a recession from turning into a Depression, and turning an awful recession into a catastrophic depression.

 

[Deleted member 21794]

what part of you have to spend your way out of a recession do you not understand? should we have let states who by their own laws cannot deficit spend just lay off even more millions nationwide while we are in an economic downspin without giving these states federal funding to keep these workers employed, our kids in school, our roads being maintained, our police and firefighters on the job? should we let two of the 3 American carmakers go belly up and put millions more carworkers, and vendors, and others associated with those companies go out of work when millions are being laid off? should we let big banks fail and tighten the credit crunch when new construction and improvements came to a stop during the bush recession, throwing even more millions out of word and reducing even further tax revenues? did you not learn from Hoover's "the government can do nothing" policies after the crash of '29 and the recession began to 1932 when it became so destructive and was then called the Great Depression? sure it increases the hell out of deficit spending, but it sure does keep a recession from turning into a Depression, and turning an awful recession into a catastrophic depression.

I can see you're not a student of history. Your spending our way out of a recession thinking is precisely what made the Great Depression so hard. But don't take my word for it. Read what FDR's Treasury Secretary had to say about it:

We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and if I am wrong ... somebody else can have my job. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises. ... I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started. ... And an enormous debt to boot.[19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morgenthau_Jr.

So there goes most of that drooling rant you just posted. Now let's talk about bailout private companies. First off, you can do nothing but speculate as to whether the auto industry workers would have been out of a job. Believing your cretinous thinking requires one believe the entire world would stand by and let some of its most powerful brands disappear and/or be liquidated. Not likely. In fact, it's funny to think people actually believe that nonsense we've all been fed. Be a more selective eater.

So of course we should let corporations fail. It happens all the time. Survival of the fittest. Rewarding losers is stupid, knuckle-dragging, big government liberal thinking that defies logic and doesn't stop for a second to ponder human nature.

 

[Bugsy McGurk]

I can see you're not a student of history. Your spending our way out of a recession thinking is precisely what made the Great Depression so hard. But don't take my word for it. Read what FDR's Treasury Secretary had to say about it:

We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and if I am wrong ... somebody else can have my job. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises. ... I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started. ... And an enormous debt to boot.[19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morgenthau_Jr.

So there goes most of that drooling rant you just posted. Now let's talk about bailout private companies. First off, you can do nothing but speculate as to whether the auto industry workers would have been out of a job. Believing your cretinous thinking requires one believe the entire world would stand by and let some of its most powerful brands disappear and/or be liquidated. Not likely. In fact, it's funny to think people actually believe that nonsense we've all been fed. Be a more selective eater.

So of course we should let corporations fail. It happens all the time. Survival of the fittest. Rewarding losers is stupid, knuckle-dragging, big government liberal thinking that defies logic and doesn't stop for a second to ponder human nature.

You seem to have “forgotten” the part about us crawling out of the Depression.

Such “amnesia”!

;-)

 

[Deleted member 21794]

You seem to have “forgotten” the part about us crawling out of the Depression.

Such “amnesia”!

;-)

Editorialize all you want. That's what we do here. But I'll give the words of FDR's Treasury Secretary more weight than any kook leftists pecking at their keyboards.

 

[Bugsy McGurk]

Editorialize all you want. That's what we do here. But I'll give the words of FDR's Treasury Secretary more weight than any kook leftists pecking at their keyboards.

Sure, but the words of anyone before we crawled out of the Depression are not very informative. In fact, they’re misleading. You know that, which is why you used them.

 

[Deleted member 21794]

Sure, but the words of anyone before we crawled out of the Depression are not very informative. In fact, they’re misleading. You know that, which is why you used them.

OK, so I should trust you over FDR's Treasury Secretary. I wonder if you realize just how insane that sounds.

 

[redtide]

the

You aren't even following the discussion. Had you, you would have known we were not discussing the US or Britain. We were discussing economic policy promoted here by wingers that had shown to have failed when it was tried in other countries.

then why did you reference GB?

 

[redtide]

You seem to have “forgotten” the part about us crawling out of the Depression.

Such “amnesia”!

;-)

WWII came around just in time. The US was spiraling down economically and FDR was excelleratiing it big time with all of his govt theft projects

 

[Raoul_Luke]

I can see you're not a student of history. Your spending our way out of a recession thinking is precisely what made the Great Depression so hard. But don't take my word for it. Read what FDR's Treasury Secretary had to say about it:

We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and if I am wrong ... somebody else can have my job. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises. ... I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started. ... And an enormous debt to boot.[19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morgenthau_Jr.

So there goes most of that drooling rant you just posted. Now let's talk about bailout private companies. First off, you can do nothing but speculate as to whether the auto industry workers would have been out of a job. Believing your cretinous thinking requires one believe the entire world would stand by and let some of its most powerful brands disappear and/or be liquidated. Not likely. In fact, it's funny to think people actually believe that nonsense we've all been fed. Be a more selective eater.

So of course we should let corporations fail. It happens all the time. Survival of the fittest. Rewarding losers is stupid, knuckle-dragging, big government liberal thinking that defies logic and doesn't stop for a second to ponder human nature.

You assume that "helping" our "workers stay on the job and our children stay in school, etc." is their real objective. They could not care less about that. All they care about is "helping" government take over ever bigger swaths of the economy.

 

[llovejim]

I can see you're not a student of history. Your spending our way out of a recession thinking is precisely what made the Great Depression so hard. But don't take my word for it. Read what FDR's Treasury Secretary had to say about it:

We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and if I am wrong ... somebody else can have my job. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises. ... I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started. ... And an enormous debt to boot.[19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morgenthau_Jr.

So there goes most of that drooling rant you just posted. Now let's talk about bailout private companies. First off, you can do nothing but speculate as to whether the auto industry workers would have been out of a job. Believing your cretinous thinking requires one believe the entire world would stand by and let some of its most powerful brands disappear and/or be liquidated. Not likely. In fact, it's funny to think people actually believe that nonsense we've all been fed. Be a more selective eater.

So of course we should let corporations fail. It happens all the time. Survival of the fittest. Rewarding losers is stupid, knuckle-dragging, big government liberal thinking that defies logic and doesn't stop for a second to ponder human nature.

bullshit. who the hell is Henry Morgenthau, Jr.? why quote him? why not scott biao? you are so incredibly dense to believe if FDR did nothing when the unemployment rate was 25%, when banks had failed and were failing, when the stock market had crashed, further complicated by the Dust Bowl hitting farmlands, that everything would have fixed itself, and those who were talking about revolution and were willing to talk to nazis emulating what Hitler and other right wingers were doing in Europe to battle their economic disasters, by finding a scapegoat to hate and nationalize all labor in order to keep so many jobless, hungry people fed and with a job even if it meant ending free market capitalism and democracy in general...people who are hungry, and jobless, whose families are hungry and sick and the situation looks hopeless will listen to any demagogue who promises them a job and food and their families a decent life. that is how revolutions start. FDR saved capitalism by tweaking it- by providing government jobs to do infrastructure work, to have social security for the elderly, to REACT TO THIS CRISIS IN ORDER TO KEEP IT FROM SPIRALING OUT OF CONTROL..And really, the only thing that ended the Depression, like it did in Italy and Germany, was massive government spending for new military weapons and soldiers, that the upcoming war created...the deficit went nuts, public debt went crazy, but capitalism was saved, millions of americans were now employed, families had better lives, seniors had some income.

The American Economy during World War II - EH.net

https://eh.net/encyclopedia/the-american-economy-during-world-war-ii/
For the United States, World War II and the Great Depression constituted the most important ... The war decisively ended the depression itself. ... height, became a major counterbalance to both the government and private industry. .... Table 1 shows the dramatic increases in GDP, federal spending, and military spending.

[URL='https://www.encyclopedia.com/economics/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/world-war-ii-and-ending-depression']World War II and the Ending of the Depression | Encyclopedia.com

https://www.encyclopedia.com/economics/.../world-war-ii-and-ending-depression[/URL]
WORLD WAR II AND THE ENDING OF THE DEPRESSION
World War II had a profound ... Most obviously, it lifted the nation out of the Great Depression of the 1930s. ... It greatly increased the size, power, and cost of the federal government. ... And as the United States prospered, the economies of the other major nations ...

How did World War II help end the Great Depression? | Socratic

https://socratic.org › ... › Aggregate Demand › Determinants of aggregate demand
Mar 7, 2017 - Much in the same way WWI was the cause of the Roaring '20s, WWII ended the Great Depression. As a result of WWII, many people were hired ...

Did World War II end the Great Depression? - The Atlantic

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/.../did-world-war...end-the-great-depression/472...
Feb 17, 2009 - The Great Depression indisputably ended during World War II, ..

What Ended the Great Depression? - Foundation for Economic ...

https://fee.org/articles/what-ended-the-great-depression/
Feb 24, 2010 - The Great Depression was the worst economic crisis in U.S. history. ... On the surface, World War II seems to mark the end of the Great Depression. ... country for his New Deal revival by promising a second bill of rights. .... #37 – If FDR's New Deal Didn't End the Depression, Then It Was World War II that Did.

 

[llovejim]

You assume that "helping" our "workers stay on the job and our children stay in school, etc." is their real objective. They could not care less about that. All they care about is "helping" government take over ever bigger swaths of the economy.

who are "they?" why would "they" want the government to take over bigger swaths of the economy, whatever that means? why would anyone want the government to take over bigger swaths of the economy, whatever that means? what swath of our economy has the government taken over? can you name some examples?

 

[Bugsy McGurk]

OK, so I should trust you over FDR's Treasury Secretary. I wonder if you realize just how insane that sounds.

Nope. But you should review an entire recovery program when purporting to analyze it. Noting that it didn’t work before it worked does not mean it didn’t work.

I put that in nice simple terms for you.

;-)

 

[Raoul_Luke]

bullshit. who the hell is Henry Morgenthau, Jr.? why quote him? why not scott biao? you are so incredibly dense to believe if FDR did nothing when the unemployment rate was 25%, when banks had failed and were failing, when the stock market had crashed, further complicated by the Dust Bowl hitting farmlands, that everything would have fixed itself, and those who were talking about revolution and were willing to talk to nazis emulating what Hitler and other right wingers were doing in Europe to battle their economic disasters, by finding a scapegoat to hate and nationalize all labor in order to keep so many jobless, hungry people fed and with a job even if it meant ending free market capitalism and democracy in general...people who are hungry, and jobless, whose families are hungry and sick and the situation looks hopeless will listen to any demagogue who promises them a job and food and their families a decent life. that is how revolutions start. FDR saved capitalism by tweaking it- by providing government jobs to do infrastructure work, to have social security for the elderly, to REACT TO THIS CRISIS IN ORDER TO KEEP IT FROM SPIRALING OUT OF CONTROL..And really, the only thing that ended the Depression, like it did in Italy and Germany, was massive government spending for new military weapons and soldiers, that the upcoming war created...the deficit went nuts, public debt went crazy, but capitalism was saved, millions of americans were now employed, families had better lives, seniors had some income.

The American Economy during World War II - EH.net

https://eh.net/encyclopedia/the-american-economy-during-world-war-ii/
For the United States, World War II and the Great Depression constituted the most important ... The war decisively ended the depression itself. ... height, became a major counterbalance to both the government and private industry. .... Table 1 shows the dramatic increases in GDP, federal spending, and military spending.

World War II and the Ending of the Depression | Encyclopedia.com

https://www.encyclopedia.com/economics/.../world-war-ii-and-ending-depression
WORLD WAR II AND THE ENDING OF THE DEPRESSION
World War II had a profound ... Most obviously, it lifted the nation out of the Great Depression of the 1930s. ... It greatly increased the size, power, and cost of the federal government. ... And as the United States prospered, the economies of the other major nations ...

How did World War II help end the Great Depression? | Socratic

https://socratic.org › ... › Aggregate Demand › Determinants of aggregate demand
Mar 7, 2017 - Much in the same way WWI was the cause of the Roaring '20s, WWII ended the Great Depression. As a result of WWII, many people were hired ...

Did World War II end the Great Depression? - The Atlantic

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/.../did-world-war...end-the-great-depression/472...
Feb 17, 2009 - The Great Depression indisputably ended during World War II, ..

What Ended the Great Depression? - Foundation for Economic ...

https://fee.org/articles/what-ended-the-great-depression/
Feb 24, 2010 - The Great Depression was the worst economic crisis in U.S. history. ... On the surface, World War II seems to mark the end of the Great Depression. ... country for his New Deal revival by promising a second bill of rights. .... #37 – If FDR's New Deal Didn't End the Depression, Then It Was World War II that Did.

Firstly, Morgantau was FDR's Treasury Secretary and Scott Baio, well, wasn't. But wait, there's more - of course if FDR had done "nothing" the depression would have ended before it ever got going:

https://mises.org/library/forgotten-depression-1920

And as for WWII "ending the Great Depression," well, LOL! Certainly if you have a bad employment deficit, killing off a half million young men (and women) would "help." But beyond that, the idea that WWII "ended" the Great Depression is absurd:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2013/11/30/the-great-depression-was-ended-by-the-end-of-world-war-ii-not-the-start-of-it/

https://mises.org/library/world-war-ii-did-not-end-great-depression

https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/24563084.pdf?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

https://eh.net/encyclopedia/the-american-economy-during-world-war-ii/

https://www.corbettreport.com/no-wwii-did-not-end-the-great-depression/

And LOL, YOUR final link actually destroys your "point:"

On the surface, World War II seems to mark the end of the Great Depression. During the war more than 12 million Americans were sent into the military, and a similar number toiled in defense-related jobs. Those war jobs seemingly took care of the 17 million unemployed in 1939. Most historians have therefore cited the massive spending during wartime as the event that ended the Great Depression.

Some economists—especially Robert Higgs (seehttp://www.independent.org/store/book.asp?id=65) -- have wisely challenged that conclusion. Let’s be blunt. If the recipe for economic recovery is putting tens of millions of people in defense plants or military marches, then having them make or drop bombs on our enemies overseas, the value of world peace is called into question. In truth, building tanks and feeding soldiers—necessary as it was to winning the war—became a crushing financial burden. We merely traded debt for unemployment. The expense of funding World War II hiked the national debt from $49 billion in 1941 to almost $260 billion in 1945. In other words, the war had only postponed the issue of recovery.

https://fee.org/articles/37-if-fdrs-new-deal-didnt-end-the-depression-then-it-was-world-war-ii-that-did/

That there is some delicious irony, am I right?

War is the ultimate Broken Window Fallacy:

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/63/Broken-Window-Fallacy

http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html

As I have always said (and you once again prove correct here), war is the last refuge of failed Keynesians...

 

[Raoul_Luke]

who are "they?" why would "they" want the government to take over bigger swaths of the economy, whatever that means? why would anyone want the government to take over bigger swaths of the economy, whatever that means? what swath of our economy has the government taken over? can you name some examples?

"They" is you, and all your progressive comrades who have never met a government expansion you all didn't swoon over. What reductions of government do you support?

Examples abound, but here's the most recent:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/10/us/politics/elizabeth-warren-2020-policies-platform.html

 

[Deleted member 21794]

bullshit. who the hell is Henry Morgenthau, Jr.? why quote him? why not scott biao? you are so incredibly dense to believe if FDR did nothing when the unemployment rate was 25%, when banks had failed and were failing, when the stock market had crashed, further complicated by the Dust Bowl hitting farmlands, that everything would have fixed itself, and those who were talking about revolution and were willing to talk to nazis emulating what Hitler and other right wingers were doing in Europe to battle their economic disasters, by finding a scapegoat to hate and nationalize all labor in order to keep so many jobless, hungry people fed and with a job even if it meant ending free market capitalism and democracy in general...people who are hungry, and jobless, whose families are hungry and sick and the situation looks hopeless will listen to any demagogue who promises them a job and food and their families a decent life. that is how revolutions start. FDR saved capitalism by tweaking it- by providing government jobs to do infrastructure work, to have social security for the elderly, to REACT TO THIS CRISIS IN ORDER TO KEEP IT FROM SPIRALING OUT OF CONTROL..And really, the only thing that ended the Depression, like it did in Italy and Germany, was massive government spending for new military weapons and soldiers, that the upcoming war created...the deficit went nuts, public debt went crazy, but capitalism was saved, millions of americans were now employed, families had better lives, seniors had some income.

The American Economy during World War II - EH.net

https://eh.net/encyclopedia/the-american-economy-during-world-war-ii/
For the United States, World War II and the Great Depression constituted the most important ... The war decisively ended the depression itself. ... height, became a major counterbalance to both the government and private industry. .... Table 1 shows the dramatic increases in GDP, federal spending, and military spending.

World War II and the Ending of the Depression | Encyclopedia.com

https://www.encyclopedia.com/economics/.../world-war-ii-and-ending-depression
WORLD WAR II AND THE ENDING OF THE DEPRESSION
World War II had a profound ... Most obviously, it lifted the nation out of the Great Depression of the 1930s. ... It greatly increased the size, power, and cost of the federal government. ... And as the United States prospered, the economies of the other major nations ...

How did World War II help end the Great Depression? | Socratic

https://socratic.org › ... › Aggregate Demand › Determinants of aggregate demand
Mar 7, 2017 - Much in the same way WWI was the cause of the Roaring '20s, WWII ended the Great Depression. As a result of WWII, many people were hired ...

Did World War II end the Great Depression? - The Atlantic

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/.../did-world-war...end-the-great-depression/472...
Feb 17, 2009 - The Great Depression indisputably ended during World War II, ..

What Ended the Great Depression? - Foundation for Economic ...

https://fee.org/articles/what-ended-the-great-depression/
Feb 24, 2010 - The Great Depression was the worst economic crisis in U.S. history. ... On the surface, World War II seems to mark the end of the Great Depression. ... country for his New Deal revival by promising a second bill of rights. .... #37 – If FDR's New Deal Didn't End the Depression, Then It Was World War II that Did.

Ummm.... as stated before, Henry Morgenthau, Jr. was your god FDR's Treasury Secretary. That's who the hell he was. Would you now like to assert that listening to FDR's Treasury Secretary isn't wise, and instead I should assign credibility to the drooling rants of a mentally ill internet troll? Laughable.

Frankly, I see no reason to slap you around any more when you won't even accept a firsthand account of a well-placed person who was there at the time FDR made the Great Depression longer and deeper. You are clearly one who simply believes whatever you are told by history revisionists. As usual, your reaction is a drooling, disjointed rant that only reveals your mental instability.

But hey, if you do want to widen the discussion of FDR, I'm good with that. How about we talk about his racism, implemented by locking up over 100,000 people. Or how about we talk about him confiscating the property of US citizens without due process?

 

[Deleted member 21794]

Nope. But you should review an entire recovery program when purporting to analyze it. Noting that it didn’t work before it worked does not mean it didn’t work.

I put that in nice simple terms for you.

;-)

You're right. Eight years into massive government spending and debt isn't enough for the Treasury Secretary to make a judgment on the effectiveness of Keynesianism. I suppose we should also ignore the record 1,024% debt accumulation as well? How about putting over 100,000 Americans into internment camps? Was that just a bump along the road? My god man, have you people no ethics whatsoever?????