"If I were in charge...they would know that waterboarding is how we baptize terrorists.

[JuliefromOhio]

You're dodging.

It's probably your best move.

there's no dodging when it comes to torture. it's against our own laws and international laws.

 

[Zam-Zam]

there's no dodging when it comes to torture. it's against our own laws and international laws.

Would you prefer that someone be killed rather than waterboarded?

 

[Caroljo]

Would you prefer that someone be killed rather than waterboarded?

She's already admitted she does. She would probably love to see those drones here in the US aiming at all conservatives, because liberals are so tolerant.

 

[gigi]

you support torture. that's sick and ignorant of you......not to mention un-American.

You know what? For some people, this isn't some abstract idea that may or may not happen to strangers out there. Her kid is out in the thick of all this with his neck on the line everyday. Whatever information that can be gathered here might end up sparing her kid and thousands of other people's kids, who are out there in the middle of things while we're safe in here. Maybe that has something to do with her point of view.

Torture is a horrible thing. I'd like to think we never engage in it. But the fact that her own kid has had to go through some of it in his training because let's face it, if he's ever captured, depending on who captured him, waterboarding would be a relief compared to what he'd have to endure at the hands of some, she might view the process a bit differently than you do. Have you read about or seen some of the things that have been done to our military people over there and elsewhere in the world? Those are the images in her head. Compare them to waterboarding.

It's nuts that you can offhandedly mention successfully killing people and then call someone else sick for "supporting" waterboarding.

And "un-American"? Really? She sure raised a kid who loves America.

 

[fairsheet]

"Waterboarding" and "baptizing" in the same sentence, is blasphemy. I'm not being facetious here. We're all sinners and perhaps there ARE circumstances where we've not evolved ourselves sufficiently to know of a righteous work around to torture.

That doesn't change the fact that conflating waterboarding with baptism with the implication that waterboarding is somehow "good", is worthy of attention and disdain.

 

[JuliefromOhio]

Would you prefer that someone be killed rather than waterboarded?

the discussion is about torture which is against our laws and international law and you come up with some silly episode of "24" and the like. I'm not playing.

 

[Arkady]

My son has been waterboarded a couple times in his training....he's fine.

What we're talking about there is being waterboarded a couple times by your own countrymen as part of a training exercise, just to familiarize you with it, where you know very well everyone has very strong incentives to keep you safe, so they're not going to push things too far, and that if you can endure it, it'll all be over soon enough. What we're talking about, when it comes to torture, is being waterboarded in a situation where you're helpless in the hands of an adversary that probably doesn't care much if you live or die, so they'll push the limits of what they think you can handle, and will keep doing it day after day, possibly for years. The psychological anguish is half the torture, and it's just not going to be present when you know it's a training exercise.

Oh, I forgot, we need to coddle those terrorists.....

First, we're not talking about coddling. Even those who are moral enough to oppose torture want to make sure that terrorists are locked up so they can't pose a threat to us. Second, we're not just talking about terrorists, we're talking about SUSPECTS. Many of those we tortured were, no doubt, terrorists. Some were not.

 

[JuliefromOhio]

You know what? For some people, this isn't some abstract idea that may or may not happen to strangers out there. Her kid is out in the thick of all this with his neck on the line everyday. Whatever information that can be gathered here might end up sparing her kid and thousands of other people's kids, who are out there in the middle of things while we're safe in here. Maybe that has something to do with her point of view.

Torture is a horrible thing. I'd like to think we never engage in it. But the fact that her own kid has had to go through some of it in his training because let's face it, if he's ever captured, depending on who captured him, waterboarding would be a relief compared to what he'd have to endure at the hands of some, she might view the process a bit differently than you do. Have you read about or seen some of the things that have been done to our military people over there and elsewhere in the world? Those are the images in her head. Compare them to waterboarding.

It's nuts that you can offhandedly mention successfully killing people and then call someone else sick for "supporting" waterboarding.

And "un-American"? Really? She sure raised a kid who loves America.

training in experiencing torture has nothing to do with torture being against our laws and international laws. you know it's conservative Christians who believe torture is okay. that's sick. you make Pope Francis weep.

 

[fairsheet]

There are many who're calling for heads-on-platters around the Dick/George/Rummy torture regimes. Whether we like it or not, it's pretty obvious that that's not going to happen. In "return", is it too much to ask that we not have to endure the silliness of those who would try to DEFEND those regimes?

 

[marvin martian]

What we're talking about there is being waterboarded a couple times by your own countrymen as part of a training exercise, just to familiarize you with it, where you know very well everyone has very strong incentives to keep you safe, so they're not going to push things too far, and that if you can endure it, it'll all be over soon enough. What we're talking about, when it comes to torture, is being waterboarded in a situation where you're helpless in the hands of an adversary that probably doesn't care much if you live or die, so they'll push the limits of what they think you can handle, and will keep doing it day after day, possibly for years. The psychological anguish is half the torture, and it's just not going to be present when you know it's a training exercise.

You need to stop spouting off on things you don't know shit about. I got waterboarded for SERE training in the Army, and I assure you the psychological element is very, very strongly present during that exercise. Seeing you talking out of your ass diminishes your flimsy credibility here even further...

Come back after you've been waterboarded and maybe we can talk without me laughing at you.

 

[gigi]

training in experiencing torture has nothing to do with torture being against our laws and international laws. you know it's conservative Christians who believe torture is okay. that's sick. you make Pope Francis weep.

No I don't know it' conservative Christians who think torture is okay. I do know though that you have this very shortsighted bigoted view where you put everyone in a box with all the thoughts you assign to them. That I've read here many times.

I'm sure Pope Francis is home weeping now because I dared discuss your hateful attitude toward a military mom. Go put up another proabortionists thread. I'm sure that'll cheer him right up.

 

[fairsheet]

What we're talking about there is being waterboarded a couple times by your own countrymen as part of a training exercise, just to familiarize you with it, where you know very well everyone has very strong incentives to keep you safe, so they're not going to push things too far, and that if you can endure it, it'll all be over soon enough. What we're talking about, when it comes to torture, is being waterboarded in a situation where you're helpless in the hands of an adversary that probably doesn't care much if you live or die, so they'll push the limits of what they think you can handle, and will keep doing it day after day, possibly for years. The psychological anguish is half the torture, and it's just not going to be present when you know it's a training exercise.



First, we're not talking about coddling. Even those who are moral enough to oppose torture want to make sure that terrorists are locked up so they can't pose a threat to us. Second, we're not just talking about terrorists, we're talking about SUSPECTS. Many of those we tortured were, no doubt, terrorists. Some were not.

Waterboarding "works" to the extent it does, specifically because the torturee is convinced that his torturer MAY drown him.

It's simply impossible for "training" to duplicate that most essential element.

 

[marvin martian]

Waterboarding "works" to the extent it does, specifically because the torturee is convinced that his torturer MAY drown him.

It's simply impossible for "training" to duplicate that most essential element.

That's not true and, like Arkady, you're talking about something you know nothing about. The physical and psychological drowning reflex in humans is involuntary. Believe me, the fact that you know the person waterboarding you won't kill you is immaterial when you're going through it. Your body and brain believe you are drowning, and the panic, stress and pain you experience are very, very real.

 

[Zam-Zam]

the discussion is about torture which is against our laws and international law and you come up with some silly episode of "24" and the like. I'm not playing.

I didn't think you could answer. It's a tough moral dilemma, and you don't want to be on record. Got it.

 

[Caroljo]

the discussion is about torture which is against our laws and international law and you come up with some silly episode of "24" and the like. I'm not playing.

You won't answer that, will you? It's simple....yes, or no.

 

[Caroljo]

training in experiencing torture has nothing to do with torture being against our laws and international laws. you know it's conservative Christians who believe torture is okay. that's sick. you make Pope Francis weep.

You know nothing about Christians, or the Pope.
You're disgusting.

 

[fairsheet]

That's not true and, like Arkady, you're talking about something you know nothing about. The physical and psychological drowning reflex in humans is involuntary. Believe me, the fact that you know the person waterboarding you won't kill you is immaterial when you're going through it. Your body and brain believe you are drowning, and the panic, stress and pain you experience are very, very real.

What you're missing is that what you're saying here, was the specific point of your training. You were being trained to understand and overcome your natural human reflex.

IF you came away from your training thinking that it was all about teaching you that "waterboarding is good", you missed the point entirely. The point of your training was to teach you how to "hold your ground" in the instance where you might be waterboarded by some ne'er-do-wells.

It's at least reasonable to assume that your average terr'st has gone through the same training exercises you have. So....what's the DISPOSITIVE difference between your (and his) training and his torture? Once again....it's that in the torture circumstance, he doesn't no for sure, whether or not he'll be allowed to drown. In fact...it might be reasonable to assume that once he's given up the requisite information, he WILL be drowned since he's no longer of any value.

 

[marvin martian]

What you're missing is that what you're saying here, was the specific point of your training. You were being trained to understand and overcome your natural human reflex.

IF you came away from your training thinking that it was all about teaching you that "waterboarding is good", you missed the point entirely. The point of your training was to teach you how to "hold your ground" in the instance where you might be waterboarded by some ne'er-do-wells.

It's at least reasonable to assume that your average terr'st has gone through the same training exercises you have. So....what's the DISPOSITIVE difference between your (and his) training and his torture? Once again....it's that in the torture circumstance, he doesn't no for sure, whether or not he'll be allowed to drown. In fact...it might be reasonable to assume that once he's given up the requisite information, he WILL be drowned since he's no longer of any value.

I understood perfectly the purpose of the training I received. The R in SERE stands for "Resistance". Nevertheless, it makes not one bit of difference whether you know the intentions of the person waterboarding you. Your body and your brain will react the same way.

If you doubt me, try it and let me know how it goes. You could have Mother Theresa waterboarding you, and you would still completely lose your shit.

 

[Zam-Zam]

training in experiencing torture has nothing to do with torture being against our laws and international laws. you know it's conservative Christians who believe torture is okay. that's sick. you make Pope Francis weep.

training in experiencing torture has nothing to do with torture being against our laws and international laws. you know it's conservative Christians who believe torture is okay. that's sick. you make Pope Francis weep.

How do you imagine the Pope feels about drone strikes?

 

[fairsheet]

I understood perfectly the purpose of the training I received. The R in SERE stands for "Resistance". Nevertheless, it makes not one bit of difference whether you know the intentions of the person waterboarding you. Your body and your brain will react the same way.

If you doubt me, try it and let me know how it goes. You could have Mother Theresa waterboarding you, and you would still completely lose your shit.

Lemme ask you a very simple question. IF your response to waterboarding was exactly the same after your training as it was before, what was the point of the training?