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I'm seriously worried about my Economic perspective

Discussion in 'Economics, Business, and Taxes' started by degsme, Jan 16, 2013.

  1. degsme

    degsme Council Member

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    Frankly I'm disappointed in the conservatives on this board. And frankly I'm seriously worried about my economic perspective. I know that I don't "know everything". Particularly when it comes to economics. I have a solid undergraduate background in Econ, strong math skills, and I read broadly. But that's not enough. Historically I've had people be able to successfully challenge my views and make me rethink them and learn in the process.

    But on this board and basically for the last 15 years or so - Conservatives have not been able to put together a comprehensive argument of any sort that has really undermined any of my economic perspectives. The best evidence is how quickly they resort to name calling.

    and this concerns me. Because I know I'm not a Nobel economist. That conservative economics is such bad voodoo is dangerous not only to my ability to learn and grow, but also to the ability to balance political forces in the economy.

    Reagan's voodoo economics may be among the most dangerous economic notions foisted on the USA in a very long time. Because it seems to have eviscerated the ability for conservatives to reason logically and factually about economics - particularly in the broader scales.

    I wish someone could point me to some conservative economist works that actually make rational sense and don't engage in the "hide the pea" shell game of intentional omission of inconvenient data points (so CATO and Hoover are right out). Please SOMEONE - offer a COGENT and REASONED explanation for what are the weaknesses of the Obama plan.... PLEASE!
     
  2. as seen on tv

    as seen on tv Senator

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    here's a list - and no fair just claiming to read them when you didn't, and saying "I disagree"

    - "free to choose" (friedman)
    - "the affluent society" (galbraith)
    - "human action" (von Mises - read this one first, actually)
    - "the road to serfdom" (von Hayek)
    - "meltdown" (woods - this one actually explains why the recent economic collapse happened, in case your curious)
    - "the ascent of money - a financial history of the world" (ferguson - this isn't strictly economics, but its the most fun to read here)
    - "das kapital" (marx - he seems eminently sensible, and has seduced college instructors and students for more than a century, but of course his ideas have never worked anywhere, and people should acknowldge that and the reasons why)
     
  3. degsme

    degsme Council Member

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    I've read each of them:


    • Von Mises is basically a turn of the last century minor noble who's family had lost its prestige and he was arguing/Rationalizing against the growing democratic movements in Europe taking control of economic reigns and democratizing the benefits of the economy. And he was arguing against the loss of elitist priviledge.
    • Galbraith and Friedman - are stuck in overly idealized models that have been largely discredited by Behavioural Economist works of Kahneman, Arielly and more modern economists in the last 4 decades
    • Von Hayek is basically someone taking up von Mises fallen lance and lucking into the mathematically complexity argument. But that largely is being addressed by more powerful math and more powerful computation.
    • Das Kapital - if you didn't read that in Univ. you didn't really study econ
    • I've not read ferguson, but I'm pretty comfortable with my understanding of money.
    • Meltdown I've read, as well as the FCIC, various Federal Reserve Papers and looked at some of the raw data. Among the most "hilarious" (you have to laugh lest you cry) is watching Phil Gramm try to justify that "the market is working" shortly after the implosion of Credit Default Swaps

    But thanks for the list. Frankly I think most conservatives ONLY read "road to serfdom" and nothing more They really need to read more broadly.
     
  4. Jen

    Jen meh

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    So you expect that the conservatives here would be expert economists? There are plenty out there, but I am not one of them and I expect that there aren't any here posting. We did have some posters of your caliber at one time, but they didn't see any point in subjecting themselves to personal verbal abuse whenever they expressed a dissenting view from their own. So they left.

    I am not saying that you contributed to that, but you may have. And since this is a predominantly leftist board, why would anyone come here except for the occasional decent conversation? Those on the left here have made it impossible to discuss any real topic because of their habit of personally attacking anyone that presents an opinion that varies even slightly from their own.

    If you wish to find someone to present to you a coherent,well-stated commentary on the weakness of any Obama plan, you will have to go elsewhere. Those who could have done it to your standards have left or, if they are here, they limit their posting to poking at the leftist populace rather than trying to talk about more important things.

    Jen
     
  5. bdtex

    bdtex Administrator Staff Member

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    By the time the plug got pulled on that other forum we came from,most of the good con posters had already left. Many left after GWB squandered his political capital in 2005 and an even larger number left after the GOP got thumped in the 2006 midterms. When conservatives like CorruptBuddha and Mr. Pinko make an appearance in PJ,they get attacked by other PJCons for nor following the party line talking points of the day. RickWA is a good one but he's not here much.
     
  6. Jen

    Jen meh

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    Lukey was also a good one.
    And those people weren't attacked by Conservatives. They are/ were personally attacked by liberals. Why would anyone put him/herself up for abuse? Most won't.

     
  7. degsme

    degsme Council Member

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    Lukey was the mainly attacking personally. Whenever he got boxed into a logical corner he'd start calling people commies and socialists. And then he started making predictions on the election outcome that were about as accurate as his economic predictions. Rather than have to face the questions of how he could be that wrong and yet still so certain - he ran away. Very typical conservative.


    Which is precisely why I'm so frustrated. I cannot find someone on the conservative side that can actually logically address Obama's economic policies or point out the weaknesses in the economic theory I currently hold as operational. And that means that there is a Push-pull that is missing. A push-pull that refines and hones the accuracy of the models.

    In science the approach is always "where am I wrong?" "What am I not understanding?".... But science also relies on peers to find those holes. Conservative economics has basically imploded into name calling everyone who disagrees with them over the last 30 years.
     
  8. degsme

    degsme Council Member

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    RickWA isn't that strong. He's basically a classic "cyberselfish" tech geek from the Silicon Forest. And in the end he resorts to invoking God... CB is better - but he too is weak on economics. Frankly the strongest argument in The Fray came from True Conservative and even he wasn't that strong. Not one of them comes close to my discussions with folks like Rob McKenna's policy director (or sorry the friend of mine who was his policy director for the last 15 years) and even HE basically throws up his hands on supply side econ and essentially walks away from it.
     
  9. NightSwimmer

    NightSwimmer Senator

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    There is no shortage of right-wing posters on this site. They merely feel as though they are outnumbered because they can't win an argument. Then again, it is exceedingly difficult to win an argument when one immediately denies having even made it the moment it is challenged.
     
  10. degsme

    degsme Council Member

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    No Jen, they left because they could not abide by the rules of not engaging in name calling whenever they could not make a logical argument. AoD left because he wanted to just call anyone names who called him on his illogic

    Lukey left so that he would not have to answer inconvenient questions about the election predictions he made and how that reflected on his economic predictons.

    And frankly none or them actually could hold a consistent economic conversation with anyone who really challenged them on their claims. They invariable resorted to calling critics commies and socialists.

    Frankly I've not found anyone capable of well stated criticism even at the level of Ross Doubthat. Its rather frightening to see the implosion of economic theory on the conservative side.
     
  11. Jen

    Jen meh

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    It is obvious that your criteria for logic and economic knowledge begins with agreement with you on everything. I'm not impressed with anyone who personally attacks others then announces that he is the winner when they choose not to debate on a personal level.

     
  12. degsme

    degsme Council Member

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    Agreement on verifiable facts? Absolutely. Facts are verifiable. Then you need to use valid logic. Both are things that GOP Gov Candidatte McKenna's Policy Director COULD and DOES bring to bear.

    The folks who personally attack have been Lukey and the others you have identified as "capable" of presenting arguments.
     
  13. Jen

    Jen meh

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    I wonder why you do not recognize that you are guilty of the very same thing you are accusing Lukey of doing? You are lucky that you have a board full of people who think exactly like you do....... no need to leave with that going on.

     
  14. degsme

    degsme Council Member

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    When have I called someone making a reasoned and factually verifiable argument names? Hmm? when? Show me a post.
     
  15. Jen

    Jen meh

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    You would find some way to disagree with it if I did, so I choose not to bite at your bait.

     
  16. degsme

    degsme Council Member

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    Uhuh... IOW you really don't have such an example and are once again hiding behind generalizations. I'll fully admit to calling twits like Lapcat names. Turnabout is fair play. But I only would call someone like Lukey names after multiple rounds of his calling me or someone else names. As you well know, I write pretty well (I get paid for some of my writing - though more on the technical side) and I'm very good at putting together arguments without having to resort to name calling.

    And that's not being egotisitical - because I'm not claiming to even be close to being in the league of someone like Lessig or Scalia. In fact as much as I disagree with someone like Scalia, I'm pretty much in awe of the logical gymnastics he can pull off.

    So I don't need to call people names. I do only if it applies or is just turnabout. And you well know this.
     
  17. fairsheet

    fairsheet Senator

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    For more than a decade now, about all I've asked is for one the advocates for a righter economic "vision", to offer up just ONE positive current example of their vision. Logic suggests that if their ideas were really "all that", at least one of the world's several hundred economies would be pursuing them and prospering.

    But in all these years, none has been able to suggest a one. For what it's worth on this subject by the way, I'd suggest that there actually ARE a few economies that operate on their desired model. Alas, none would be considered "positive".
     
  18. Corruptbuddha

    Corruptbuddha Governor

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    Hah! There's an understatement.

    Oh, how I wish I had the patience to get through even one of those god-awful books on that list of ASOTV. (I've tried 4 of them!)

    But..I'd rather be pulled over carpet tacks and dipped in alcohol.
     
  19. Corruptbuddha

    Corruptbuddha Governor

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    Just curious, Fair...what's your preferred model?
     
  20. NightSwimmer

    NightSwimmer Senator

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    What's wrong Degs?

    awww.shockya.com_news_wp_content_uploads_pee_wee_herman.

    You aren't impressed by the "I know you are, but what am I" argument?
     

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