Is Liberalism a "Theology" as Santorum says it is?

[KnotaFrayed]

I don't think it's a 'theology' anymore than one could similarly label conservatism.

However liberalism is anathema to the USA's values. Conservatives can be honest about our intentions and relate them plainly. We adhere to the letter and spirit of our constitution and the democratic process. Liberals can't. They promote something for nothing. Talk about what people can get rather what they're responsible to give. They live in a zero sum world where someone has to lose for another to win.


The term 'progressive' , implying progress. Like 2000 page industry sector takeovers that people will read once it's law. Now that's innovation Steve Jobs could appreciate

I believe some true conservatives (more in line with the non-political definition of the word) who are not of the "neo" (new) variety and who do not see the words conservative and liberal as being mutually exclusive as an opportunity for those who are truly conservative in their values, being able to be liberal in what they can share with their fellow human beings as true believers in the value of humans offering a lending hand to one another.

I'm not sure how you possibly related what you seem to consider to be "conservative" values as those of America's, especially considering the history of this nation and how and why it came to be, how progressive this nation's Constitution was in the time it was written relative to the rest of the world. Conservatives in 1776 did NOT sign the Declaration of Independence, they recommended hanging those in favor of revolution, no differently than some self described "conservatives" rhetorically suggest liberalism is an anathema to the values of this nation or somehow evil.

If you truly believe what you have said, no one is going to change your mind, but you might consider, based on where "liberality" or "liberalism" sits in the "values" discussed in the books of the Bible, you seem to be suggesting that Christianity is also an "anathema" to the U.S.A.'s values. As you may have already noted, anyone can say anything they like in a society where freedom of speech is protected, but freedom of speech has no bearing on whether those free to speak abuse that right and tell untruths or respect it by using it to speak the truth, the purpose for which the right stands.

In the longer term, those who do not speak the truth, do not harm those they tell lies about (even if they delude themselves into thinking they might be or deny what the truth really is), but they do harm themselves. No religion, no political party, no group, no individual is immune from harming themselves in the long or the short term by abusing freedom of speech in order to "win" ironically and perhaps hypocritically by cheating.

 

[DefeatObama]

since when?

dirt.

how does Cain preclude racism?

he doesn't

Then go look it up.
Talk about ignorance of what Republican Presidential candidates have said about economics....

oh you mean the ideology that a former VP of the US subscribes to.

who does The Constitution say it applies to?

you said conservatives ignore due process. since I don't know of a single instance where that's true you must have something in mind. or you don't and it's just more jive.

As Hamilton the Founding Father underscored

"n fact, the question came up almost immediately, during the ratification debates, and in early Congresses as well, so we have a rich record of just what the General Welfare Clause meant. Here, for example, in Federalist #41, is James Madison, the principal author of the Constitution:

Some, who have not denied the necessity of the power of taxation, have grounded a very fierce attack against the Constitution, on the language in which it is defined. It has been urged and echoed, that the power “to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States,” amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction…. Had no other enumeration or definition of the powers of the Congress been found in the Constitution, than the general expressions just cited, the authors of the objection might have had some color for it…. But what color can the objection have, when a specification of the objects alluded to by these general terms immediately follows, and is not even separated by a longer pause than a semicolon?

Indeed, as was often asked: What was the point of enumerating the 17 other powers if Congress could do anything it wanted under this single power?
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/ron-paul-on-the-general-welfare-clause/

not sure if that's a FACT.

it's more like a QUOTE.

which I suppose could be considered a FACT

depending on who I'm ASKING

who would have an OPINION

that they would GIVE

I'll have to submit this to the political jack FACT

interpretation committee.

 

[KnotaFrayed]

Using the token black guy to hide prejudices. It's a classic move.

Don't you remember Herman Cain lost?

Is it because he's black?

Who knows?

Remember how John McCain lost the Party nomination in 2000 and how South Carolina played a role?

http://www.thenation.com/article/dirty-tricks-south-carolina-and-john-mccain



Seems it took two hard lessons for McCain and who knows if he has learned anything yet from those lessons.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2008/09/mccain-hires-go/

 

[gabriel]

no more so than conservatism's belief in the perfection of the marketplace as preached at the church of chicago school of economics

 

[degsme]

sounds like justification to throw the stupid kids out of public school

Um Actually its the other way around. Vouchers go to private schools which can throw kids out. Public schools have to "take all comers"..

So your assumption is completely uside down. Again Liberals TRIED the Voucher idea. But
1) it didn't work
2) the size of the vouchers was not enough to pay for private ed at a level equal to that of the public schools

See even the ultra conservtative Hoover Institute will admit this if you dig in their documents long enough. They admit that it is unfair to compare Parochial school tuition with public school spending... why? Because parochial schools are SUBSIDIZED by the Archdiocese. And thus tuition is about 50% of the net SPENDING that a parochial school does on a per student basis.

And that doesn't even count the Ordered staff that teaches there (who are not subject to retirement and healthcare costs - since both are covered independently by their respective Orders).

but hey, as a conservative who brought up vouchers, I assume you know all this data. After all it comes from the CONSERVATIVE Hoover Institute.


or is this another case where a conservative blithers about vouchers without knowing ALL the relevant facts?

FACTS MATTER
all of them...

 

[degsme]

so what you're saying is that at least some Republicans aren't racists?

No - racism is endemic in the USA.

 

[degsme]

nah. victims stand still while takin' it from behind

Ah so a woman raped missionary style isn't a victim according to you... Got it!!!

 

[DefeatObama]

I believe some true conservatives (more in line with the non-political definition of the word) who are not of the "neo" (new) variety and who do not see the words conservative and liberal as being mutually exclusive as an opportunity for those who are truly conservative in their values, being able to be liberal in what they can share with their fellow human beings as true believers in the value of humans offering a lending hand to one another.

I'm not sure how you possibly related what you seem to consider to be "conservative" values as those of America's, especially considering the history of this nation and how and why it came to be, how progressive this nation's Constitution was in the time it was written relative to the rest of the world. Conservatives in 1776 did NOT sign the Declaration of Independence, they recommended hanging those in favor of revolution, no differently than some self described "conservatives" rhetorically suggest liberalism is an anathema to the values of this nation or somehow evil.

If you truly believe what you have said, no one is going to change your mind, but you might consider, based on where "liberality" or "liberalism" sits in the "values" discussed in the books of the Bible, you seem to be suggesting that Christianity is also an "anathema" to the U.S.A.'s values. As you may have already noted, anyone can say anything they like in a society where freedom of speech is protected, but freedom of speech has no bearing on whether those free to speak abuse that right and tell untruths or respect it by using it to speak the truth, the purpose for which the right stands.

In the longer term, those who do not speak the truth, do not harm those they tell lies about (even if they delude themselves into thinking they might be or deny what the truth really is), but they do harm themselves. No religion, no political party, no group, no individual is immune from harming themselves in the long or the short term by abusing freedom of speech in order to "win" ironically and perhaps hypocritically by cheating.

you raise a good point. our founding fathers were the ultimate radicals.

what has always impressed me more than any other single thing they did or wrote was their inherent mistrust of government or rather it's potential to be corrupted.

I've never understood how/why anyone in America would look to government as the first resource.

Both party's are corrupt today. There are a few honest individuals on either side but your comment about 'winning' is right on.

party comes first. country second. individuals third. it's completely bassackwards

 

[Jen]

I don't think Santorum was trying to say that liberalism is a "theology" although Democrats are twisting what he said to mean that.

But Liberalism is a "religion" of sorts. The "superior being" to them is GOVERNMENT, as you said. Government replaces God as the giver of everything that sustains life. The Communists of the USSR necessarily banned religion in which The Creator was worshiped since their government was supposed to be the Sustainer of life and the Creator of life was secondary.

We are headed down that road. Or maybe I should say we are quickly sliding down that slippery slope. Abortion would be a fitting sacrament for it.

 

[DefeatObama]

Ah so a woman raped missionary style isn't a victim according to you... Got it!!!

I was speaking metaphorically... that's gross

 

[DefeatObama]

No - racism is endemic in the USA.

of course it is. worldwide too. humans have bias'.

the incessent droning on from the left about which class was recently aggrieved most, exacerbates it.

anyone who uses race or anything else as an excuse in America deserves their life.

 

[degsme]

I was speaking metaphorically... that's gross

And metaphors are based in prejudices... so you clearly seem to believe that sexual intercourse from behind - something gays engage in - is somehow victimiation.

amazing how the truth will out.

 

[degsme]

of course it is. worldwide too. humans have bias'.

US laws apply in the USA. US Constitution applies only in the USA.

So programs to limit racism in the USA need only concern themselves with the racism endemic in the USA. And since we have both annecdotal data (in the form of Trent Lott's blithe acceptance of segregationism and David Duke's run as a REpublican) as well as empirical data from the 2008 exit polls http://www.ted.com/talks/nate_silver_on_race_and_politics.html that the GOP is more racist than average....

 

[DefeatObama]

Um Actually its the other way around. Vouchers go to private schools which can throw kids out. Public schools have to "take all comers"..

you FACTED:

Yup they were tried.... and they didn't work. The net scores, normalized for socioeconomic peers - were LOWER than public schools

So. experiment over. after an exhaustive and unbiased trial. pull drain plug. watch baby circle....

the point of then experimenting with students who clearly are uneducable is what?

education monopoly says so?

EDUCATION MATTERS
MONOPOLY MATTERS
CHESS TOO
GARDEN HOSES MATTER
and so does VANILLA

 

[gabriel]

there is no creator of life

 

[DefeatObama]

US laws apply in the USA. US Constitution applies only in the USA.

So programs to limit racism in the USA need only concern themselves with the racism endemic in the USA. And since we have both annecdotal data (in the form of Trent Lott's blithe acceptance of segregationism and David Duke's run as a REpublican) as well as empirical data from the 2008 exit polls http://www.ted.com/talks/nate_silver_on_race_and_politics.html that the GOP is more racist than average....

Don't forget stupid cops and enemies of latinos

TED.COM MATTERS

 

[DefeatObama]

And metaphors are based in prejudices... so you clearly seem to believe that sexual intercourse from behind - something gays engage in - is somehow victimiation.

amazing how the truth will out.

That makes people happy?

 

[degsme]

you FACTED:

Yup they were tried.... and they didn't work. The net scores, normalized for socioeconomic peers - were LOWER than public schools

So. experiment over. after an exhaustive and unbiased trial. pull drain plug. watch baby circle....

Actually it was three different unbiased trials and the research was exhaustive.

The didn't work

the point of then experimenting with students who clearly are uneducable is what?

Who says they are "clearly uneducatable"?

They are educatable. Its just that you have to spend about 2x -3x per student over what is being spent on them in public Ed. That's what Parochial Schools do to achieve their success rates (and also kick out "problem" kids).

 

[DefeatObama]

See even the ultra conservtative Hoover Institute will admit this if you dig in their documents long enough.

this hoover?

This Just In: Vouchers Work
by Paul E. Peterson
The early evidence on the effectiveness of school voucher programs is in. The verdict? Vouchers work. By Hoover fellow Paul E. Peterson.
http://www.hoover.org/publications/hoover-digest/article/6723

HOOVER MATTERS
COOLIDGE TOO
AND ELECTROLUX

 

[degsme]

this hoover?

This Just In: Vouchers Work
by Paul E. Peterson
The early evidence on the effectiveness of school voucher programs is in. The verdict? Vouchers work. By Hoover fellow Paul E. Peterson.
http://www.hoover.org/publications/hoover-digest/article/6723

HOOVER MATTERS
COOLIDGE TOO
AND ELECTROLUX

Yup that Hoover. Like I said, you have to dig past their top level bullshite spin. And search for relative spending.

Note also that the conclusions in this particular article tend to be of the bait and switch variety. Including Parental Satisfaction in the overal evaluation of "quality".