It's official California is officially turning into

[resident_evil]

1. Did you think I was a social democrat? No, as I said, social democracy, like every “socialism” that is not the socialism of Marx and Lenin, is a variant of capitalism.

But so is Marx's and Lenin's a variant of capitalism because socialism is the midpoint step towards communism. Communism is the pure thought and vision, right?

2. What “gives” people a stake in the system is being treated as human beings. For example when a tiny fraction of the tremendous wealth they produce is used to make sure they have health care.

Ever watch Shark Tank?

 

[EatTheRich]

But so is Marx's and Lenin's a variant of capitalism because socialism is the midpoint step towards communism. Communism is the pure thought and vision, right?

Ever watch Shark Tank?

1. Socialism is the organic development of capitalism into something that supersedes it, as communism is the development of socialism. Communism is not an ideal, or a scheme, or a myth; it is what science tells us we are developing toward if our civilization has a future.
2. Can’t say as I have.

 

[resident_evil]

1. Socialism is the organic development of capitalism into something that supersedes it, as communism is the development of socialism. Communism is not an ideal, or a scheme, or a myth; it is what science tells us we are developing toward if our civilization has a future.

So Lenin/Marx socialism is constructed on the existing capitalist infrastructure ("a variant of capitalism") as it becomes communism, right?

2. Can’t say as I have.

In economic terms you are only worth (and that is based on what you produce) what you're paid. You wanna be worth more, then you must improve yourself or limit those that compete with you (as unions have done time and again).

 

[EatTheRich]

So Lenin/Marx socialism is constructed on the existing capitalist infrastructure ("a variant of capitalism") as it becomes communism, right?

In economic terms you are only worth (and that is based on what you produce) what you're paid. You wanna be worth more, then you must improve yourself or limit those that compete with you (as unions have done time and again).

Yes, except that the social revolution marks a qualitative break with capitalism.

Or you could improve your society (as unions have done time and again, hence why we are having this discussion instead of dying from the testicular cancer we got sweeping chimneys as infants). The idea that humans have no more worth than what the propertied rulers choose to ascribe to them is a very evil one that has led to the sacrifice of hundreds of millions on the altar of profit.

 

[Zam-Zam]

Companion Story: The Battle For Venice Beach:

LA's Battle for Venice Beach: Homeless Surge Puts Hollywood's Progressive Ideals to the Test


With swelling transient encampments abutting seven-figure homes, the beachside enclave has emerged as a flashpoint for the inequality shaping Los Angeles — and a real-world test case for the liberal ideology of the area’s showbiz residents.


https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/las-homeless-surge-puts-hollywoods-progressive-ideals-test-1174599

 

[marvin martian]

Companion Story: The Battle For Venice Beach:

LA's Battle for Venice Beach: Homeless Surge Puts Hollywood's Progressive Ideals to the Test


With swelling transient encampments abutting seven-figure homes, the beachside enclave has emerged as a flashpoint for the inequality shaping Los Angeles — and a real-world test case for the liberal ideology of the area’s showbiz residents.


https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/las-homeless-surge-puts-hollywoods-progressive-ideals-test-1174599

As always...

They wanted this.

 

[Emily]

 

[Nostra]

1. Socialism is the organic development of capitalism into something that supersedes it, as communism is the development of socialism. Communism is not an ideal, or a scheme, or a myth; it is what science tells us we are developing toward if our civilization has a future.
.

I am quite positive there has NEVER been anything more incoherent, dumber, and idiotic posted anywhere on the history of the innerweb.

 

[EatTheRich]

I am quite positive there has NEVER been anything more incoherent, dumber, and idiotic posted anywhere on the history of the innerweb.

You realize I could paste this same response rather than make a substantive argument as readily as you do often do? But I don’t need to because I have a head on my shoulders and reality on my side.

 

[freyasman]

You realize I could paste this same response rather than make a substantive argument as readily as you do often do? But I don’t need to because I have a head on my shoulders and reality on my side.

Reality is that your chosen ideology has failed literally everywhere, and killed more people in the process than the Nazis could have hoped for in their wildest dreams.... that's reality.

 

[EatTheRich]

Reality is that your chosen ideology has failed literally everywhere, and killed more people in the process than the Nazis could have hoped for in their wildest dreams.... that's reality.

My “chosen ideology” is reality, which has failed only in the sense that there have in fact been tragedies. I realize you are talking about communism, that is the scientific standpoint on history. It has succeeded tremendously here in the real world, what with all the kids who are now going to school instead of working in coal mines and textile mills, the defeat of Nazism, Jim Crow, and apartheid, the huge advance in women’s rights, etc. But I realize you don’t want to look at the international class struggle that the workers are winning, but only at those states where there has been a social revolution, and instead of comparing them to the capitalism they emerged from (czarist autocracy, gulags, and pogroms in Russia; Japanese occupation, torture, feudalism, and torture in China; Nazi rule in E. Germany; etc.) you want to declare them failures if they do not immediately rise to the standard of living of the wealthiest capitalist country. There is a reason people fought and died to make those countries socialist and to keep them that way and it has nothing to do with ideology. Then you want to ascribe every premature death in any of those countries to communism, but refuse to apply the same standard to capitalism with its 2 world wars, huge famines, and year-in-And-year-out mass deaths from starvation and preventable disease.

 

[Emily]

 

[EatTheRich]

Hitler verifiably killed nearly 6 million Jews ... nearly 18 million civilians total, plus about 15 million more enemy soldiers. Stalin still killed more but that is only a testament to how brutal his regime was.

 

[resident_evil]

Carpetbaggers in Cali? That would be something else....

Just about everybody in California is a carpet bagger. At least they were when I was growing up in Contra Costa county.

 

[Emily]

Hitler verifiably killed nearly 6 million Jews ... nearly 18 million civilians total

Not only are the 6 million number and the 18 million number not verifiable, they've been soundly proven false ... even by "holocaust" researchers. Inconvenient fact.
The "Hitler killed" is also highly questionable, as deaths from disease and malnutrition that resulted from Allied bombing of civilian targets can't legitimately be classified as killings committed by the German government. Inconvenient truth.
Yet still, the point of the "meme" remains valid.

plus about 15 million more enemy soldiers.

A nation defending itself in war isn't murder, and thus your statement merits a "DUH!"

Stalin still killed more but that is only a testament to how brutal his regime was.

Yes, his COMMUNIST regime.

Oh, wait, I almost forgot: Stalin's regime wasn't communist. Because it slaughtered millions and was an utter failure. So even though it was communist it wasn't communist because communism is whatever works whenever it works, even though it never works. But that's because it wasn't communism in the first place even though it was except according to armchair communists after the fact of it's abysmal failure, because it's failure proves it wasn't communism since communism works, though it never has, but it will because when it does it will be communism just like when it doesn't it was never communism even though it was communism when communists thought it would work but since it failed it wasn't communism. So, obviously, the millions upon millions upon millions upon millions of innocent lives taken in the name of communism had nothing to do with communism even though communists did the killing in the name of communism. DUH! on me.

 

[freyasman]

Not only are the 6 million number and the 18 million number not verifiable, they've been soundly proven false ... even by "holocaust" researchers. Inconvenient fact.
The "Hitler killed" is also highly questionable, as deaths from disease and malnutrition that resulted from Allied bombing of civilian targets can't legitimately be classified as killings committed by the German government. Inconvenient truth.
Yet still, the point of the "meme" remains valid.


A nation defending itself in war isn't murder, and thus your statement merits a "DUH!"


Yes, his COMMUNIST regime.

Oh, wait, I almost forgot: Stalin's regime wasn't communist. Because it slaughtered millions and was an utter failure. So even though it was communist it wasn't communist because communism is whatever works whenever it works, even though it never works. But that's because it wasn't communism in the first place even though it was except according to armchair communists after the fact of it's abysmal failure, because it's failure proves it wasn't communism since communism works, though it never has, but it will because when it does it will be communism just like when it doesn't it was never communism even though it was communism when communists thought it would work but since it failed it wasn't communism. So, obviously, the millions upon millions upon millions upon millions of innocent lives taken in the name of communism had nothing to do with communism even though communists did the killing in the name of communism. DUH! on me.

I had to give this a "like" on the strength of that last paragraph.

 

[EatTheRich]

Not only are the 6 million number and the 18 million number not verifiable, they've been soundly proven false ... even by "holocaust" researchers. Inconvenient fact.

Total BS

The "Hitler killed" is also highly questionable, as deaths from disease and malnutrition that resulted from Allied bombing of civilian targets can't legitimately be classified as killings committed by the German government. Inconvenient truth.

Yet somehow the unprecedented violence visited on the socialist countries, in wars they didn’t start, must be ignored when it comes time to calculate the death toll in those countries.

Yet still, the point of the "meme" remains valid.

Already acknowledged that Stalin had a slightly higher death toll in his 32 years in power than Hitler in his 12 years in power.

A nation defending itself in war isn't murder, and thus your statement merits a "DUH!"

Any state that “defends itself” by building an empire at weaker nations’ expense is corrupt and illegitimate.

Yes, his COMMUNIST regime.

Oh, wait, I almost forgot: Stalin's regime wasn't communist. Because it slaughtered millions and was an utter failure.

That’s actually a consequence of Stalin’s anticommunist course.

So even though it was communist it wasn't communist because communism is whatever works whenever it works, even though it never works.

No, communism is the line of march of the working class guided by the best political science available. Communists make mistakes. But mistakes are very different from Stalin-style betrayals of the working class. What differentiates Lenin’s government from Stalin’s is the passage of political power from the hands of the working class into the hands of a counter revolutionary petty-bourgeois clique. What differentiates Stalin’s from Hitler’s is that in the USSR the petit bourgeoisie ruled in alliance with workers who were too weak to rule alone, while in Germany they ruled in alliance with capitalists who were too weak to rule alone.

But that's because it wasn't communism in the first place even though it was except according to armchair communists after the fact of it's abysmal failure

False. Stalin’s betrayal of communism was denounced as such at the time by the leading active communists ... including Lenin, who fought to defend communism against Stalin and the bureaucratic caste he represented and specifically accused Stalin of being disloyal to communism, as well as Trotsky, Cannon, Spector, Chen Duxiu, Radek, Rakovsky, etc.

On the other hand, Stalin was welcomed as a moderate alternative to Leninist radicalism by capitalists across the political spectrum, from Tsereteli to Wilson to Mussolini.

His road to power was in fact littered with the bodies of dead communists (95% of pre-1917 Bolsheviks) defeated in a tremendous struggle.

because it's failure proves it wasn't communism since communism works, though it never has, but it will because when it does it will be communism just like when it doesn't it was never communism even though it was communism when communists thought it would work but since it failed it wasn't communism.

@Drumcollie ?

So you think we deny that any regime was ever communist? Lenin was Communist, and he made mistakes and suffered setbacks. Fidel Castro was Communist, and he made mistakes and suffered setbacks. The much worse failures of regimes like Stalin’s are not unrelated to the betrayals of communism that communists were quick to diagnose and resist from the beginning.

So, obviously, the millions upon millions upon millions upon millions of innocent lives taken in the name of communism had nothing to do with communism even though communists did the killing in the name of communism. DUH! on me.

Stalin broke with basic fundamentals of communism, internationalism to begin with. As a Russian chauvinist, nationalist, and anti-Semite he deviated from communism in a direction one might term national-socialist.

 

[EatTheRich]

I had to give this a "like" on the strength of that last paragraph.

Birds of a feather will flock together.

 

[Emily]

Birds of a feather will flock together.

That's completely unfair to him. People may agree on some things while disagreeing on others. You, rightly, object when people classify as one your ideology & mine because of some points in common. The same applies to everyone.

Total BS

Deprogramming is difficult -- been there. I understand.

Any state that “defends itself” by building an empire at weaker nations’ expense is corrupt and illegitimate.

That would include the USSR, the UK, and the USA. It would not include Germany.

Your use of "state" contra my use of "nation" is telling. A state is defined by it's borders; a nation by it's people. Therein we have a fundamental distinction between the globalist variants of socialism and National Socialism, which is at essence a distinction between fallacy and scientific realism.

Already acknowledged that Stalin had a slightly higher death toll in his 32 years in power than Hitler in his 12 years in power. ...

That’s actually a consequence ...

No, communism is the line of march of the working class ...

Stalin’s betrayal of communism was denounced ...

So you think we deny ...

Stalin broke with basic fundamentals of communism ...

Well done. I mean, I disagree beyond the hard historical facts, but your selection of those facts and the words you used to present them were good. Wrapping up with

he deviated from communism in a direction one might term national-socialist.

was very good. Anyone who understands true National Socialist philosophy knows it's dead wrong but it was a clever twist to drive both the thrusts of your point here. Bravo.

 

[freyasman]

That's completely unfair to him. People may agree on some things while disagreeing on others. You, rightly, object when people classify as one your ideology & mine because of some points in common. The same applies to everyone.


Deprogramming is difficult -- been there. I understand.


That would include the USSR, the UK, and the USA. It would not include Germany.

Your use of "state" contra my use of "nation" is telling. A state is defined by it's borders; a nation by it's people. Therein we have a fundamental distinction between the globalist variants of socialism and National Socialism, which is at essence a distinction between fallacy and scientific realism.







Well done. I mean, I disagree beyond the hard historical facts, but your selection of those facts and the words you used to present them were good. Wrapping up with
was very good. Anyone who understands true National Socialist philosophy knows it's dead wrong but it was a clever twist to drive both the thrusts of your point here. Bravo.

Win the war of words and gain power..... which will inevitably lead to a war with bullets.

Looks like some folks just got to learn shit the hard way.