Arkady
President
OK, I was wondering whether people could think of any "Double Hall of Famers." The idea is, can you think of sports figures who were so good in some major sport that if you started measuring just AFTER they reached the point in their careers where they already had done enough to make their sport's Hall of Fame, the balance of their career still would have been enough to qualify for the Hall of Fame without reference to what came before -- essentially enough productivity that even if they had been two different people, both would have made the Hall.
Any ideas? I was thinking about this earlier and it's a really tall order. Even most no-questions-asked first-ballot HOF types don't come close to living up to that standard.
Michael Jordan is a good one to start with since he's so widely considered his sport's best and his career has a natural break. If he'd retired for good in 1993, when he stepped away to play baseball, he'd certainly have been a Hall of Famer without ever touching a basketball again. He'd been a three-time NBA MVP by then, and had three championships under his belt, and had led the league in scoring eight times. So, if you drew the line there, the question is whether his subsequent performance, with three more championships, two more MVPs, and two more scoring championships --plus the Dream Team and leading arguably the greatest team in league history-- would have made the Hall. Everyone with at least two MVPs is in the Basketball Hall or destined for it, so I think Jordan's a double-hall-of-famer. Or, if you think maybe that second half isn't quite a lock, you could split the career a year earlier, and the first half would still be an easy pick for the Hall and the second half would cross the threshold more easily, with four championships.
In basketball, Bill Russell would make it, too. As with Jordan, you'd have one half with three MVPs and the other with two, but he'd probably get in even easier, since you'd have him as the best player on a team that won six championships and also the best player on a different team that won five. Has anyone ever had two league MVPs and led his team to five championships without being a first-balloter for the Hall? After Jordan and Russel, things get a bit dicier in the NBA. Kareem might do it. You could put 3 MVPs and 3 championships in each half, and though he wasn't the best player on some of those championship teams, it wouldn't be hard to build a case for him. Plus, half his career scoring is still on par with, say, John Stockton. Wilt and Lebron might conceivably make it, since you could make two separate two-MVP careers, but with fewer championships, I don't think they'd make the cut. Other greats, like Bird, Johnson, Robertson, Duncan, and Malone, just can't be sliced in two without leaving one or the other half short of the Hall.
Football? There might be no double Hall of Famers there. Peyton Manning, possibly -- you could divide his career into 3 MVPs and 2 MVPs, with about 36,000 yards passing. A 2 MVP, 1 SB, 36,000-yard career (in the modern era) would be on the bubble for the HoF (basically, Kurt Warner). Brady's on the bubble, but more of a long shot -- each career would have one MVP, and they'd have 2 and 1 championships respectively, but a lot fewer yards. I don't think any other player makes it. Unitas and Montana have paltry career yards if cut in half. Elway and Marino might get some HoF talk for a half-career, but wouldn't make it. Cut Jerry Rice's career in half and you've got something akin to Rod Smith for each half, and he doesn't make it. Emmitt Smith -- if he'd retired half-way through his production, he'd have had the same issue as Terrell Davis -- a proven winner with great ypg and ypc numbers, but just not enough total yards to make it an easy choice. Walter Payton, Jim Brown, and Barry Sanders don't cut it. The defensive players have a harder time to begin with, so cut any of them in half and they don't have a chance. Take someone like Reggie White or Bruce Smith and cut their careers in two and you've got a Jim Jeffcoat -- possibly a nominee, but not an inductee.
Baseball? I know very little about it, so I'd like to hear what those who know more about the sport's history have to say. Just some quick possibilities: Babe Ruth? Roger Clemens? Nolan Ryan? Ted Williams? Barry Bonds? Hank Aaron?
NHL? Gretsky seems like the biggest slam dunk in any sport. Cut his career in half and even the lesser half would have as many MVP as anyone in league history other than Gordie Howe. Cut his points in half and you still have the 15th-highest point total in league history. Each half would also involve being the best player on two championship teams. Cut his career in half and even the lesser half would be an easy first-balloter. Aside from him, maybe Howe and Lemiuex?
Boxing? Joe Louis had 25 consecutive title defenses in a nearly 12 year reign. Cut that in half and a nearly six-year reign with twelve defenses would still exceed, say, Muhammad Ali's longest title reign. Wladimir Klitschko is another top choice -- cut his career in half and you'd still have more days as champion and more title defenses, cumulatively, than Joe Frazier. Julio Cesar Chavez defended his title successfully more than any other boxer, with 27 times, even half of which would be HoF material.
It looks like no more than ten double-hall-of-famers, total, for all major sports combined. How about other sports? Tennis? Steffi Graf, Federer, Margaret Court, and Serena Williams, maybe. Swimming? Phelps, Spitz, Thorpe. Track and Field? Carl Lewis. Golf? Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods. Other thoughts?
Any ideas? I was thinking about this earlier and it's a really tall order. Even most no-questions-asked first-ballot HOF types don't come close to living up to that standard.
Michael Jordan is a good one to start with since he's so widely considered his sport's best and his career has a natural break. If he'd retired for good in 1993, when he stepped away to play baseball, he'd certainly have been a Hall of Famer without ever touching a basketball again. He'd been a three-time NBA MVP by then, and had three championships under his belt, and had led the league in scoring eight times. So, if you drew the line there, the question is whether his subsequent performance, with three more championships, two more MVPs, and two more scoring championships --plus the Dream Team and leading arguably the greatest team in league history-- would have made the Hall. Everyone with at least two MVPs is in the Basketball Hall or destined for it, so I think Jordan's a double-hall-of-famer. Or, if you think maybe that second half isn't quite a lock, you could split the career a year earlier, and the first half would still be an easy pick for the Hall and the second half would cross the threshold more easily, with four championships.
In basketball, Bill Russell would make it, too. As with Jordan, you'd have one half with three MVPs and the other with two, but he'd probably get in even easier, since you'd have him as the best player on a team that won six championships and also the best player on a different team that won five. Has anyone ever had two league MVPs and led his team to five championships without being a first-balloter for the Hall? After Jordan and Russel, things get a bit dicier in the NBA. Kareem might do it. You could put 3 MVPs and 3 championships in each half, and though he wasn't the best player on some of those championship teams, it wouldn't be hard to build a case for him. Plus, half his career scoring is still on par with, say, John Stockton. Wilt and Lebron might conceivably make it, since you could make two separate two-MVP careers, but with fewer championships, I don't think they'd make the cut. Other greats, like Bird, Johnson, Robertson, Duncan, and Malone, just can't be sliced in two without leaving one or the other half short of the Hall.
Football? There might be no double Hall of Famers there. Peyton Manning, possibly -- you could divide his career into 3 MVPs and 2 MVPs, with about 36,000 yards passing. A 2 MVP, 1 SB, 36,000-yard career (in the modern era) would be on the bubble for the HoF (basically, Kurt Warner). Brady's on the bubble, but more of a long shot -- each career would have one MVP, and they'd have 2 and 1 championships respectively, but a lot fewer yards. I don't think any other player makes it. Unitas and Montana have paltry career yards if cut in half. Elway and Marino might get some HoF talk for a half-career, but wouldn't make it. Cut Jerry Rice's career in half and you've got something akin to Rod Smith for each half, and he doesn't make it. Emmitt Smith -- if he'd retired half-way through his production, he'd have had the same issue as Terrell Davis -- a proven winner with great ypg and ypc numbers, but just not enough total yards to make it an easy choice. Walter Payton, Jim Brown, and Barry Sanders don't cut it. The defensive players have a harder time to begin with, so cut any of them in half and they don't have a chance. Take someone like Reggie White or Bruce Smith and cut their careers in two and you've got a Jim Jeffcoat -- possibly a nominee, but not an inductee.
Baseball? I know very little about it, so I'd like to hear what those who know more about the sport's history have to say. Just some quick possibilities: Babe Ruth? Roger Clemens? Nolan Ryan? Ted Williams? Barry Bonds? Hank Aaron?
NHL? Gretsky seems like the biggest slam dunk in any sport. Cut his career in half and even the lesser half would have as many MVP as anyone in league history other than Gordie Howe. Cut his points in half and you still have the 15th-highest point total in league history. Each half would also involve being the best player on two championship teams. Cut his career in half and even the lesser half would be an easy first-balloter. Aside from him, maybe Howe and Lemiuex?
Boxing? Joe Louis had 25 consecutive title defenses in a nearly 12 year reign. Cut that in half and a nearly six-year reign with twelve defenses would still exceed, say, Muhammad Ali's longest title reign. Wladimir Klitschko is another top choice -- cut his career in half and you'd still have more days as champion and more title defenses, cumulatively, than Joe Frazier. Julio Cesar Chavez defended his title successfully more than any other boxer, with 27 times, even half of which would be HoF material.
It looks like no more than ten double-hall-of-famers, total, for all major sports combined. How about other sports? Tennis? Steffi Graf, Federer, Margaret Court, and Serena Williams, maybe. Swimming? Phelps, Spitz, Thorpe. Track and Field? Carl Lewis. Golf? Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods. Other thoughts?