Our future under a 2nd Obama term.

[Sgt Staples]

Spanish unemployment has hit a new record high, official figures have shown.

The number of unemployed people reached 5,639,500 at the end of March, with the unemployment rate hitting 24.4%, the national statistics agency said.

The figures came hours after rating agency Standard & Poor's downgraded Spanish sovereign debt.

"The figures are terrible for everyone and terrible for the government... Spain is in a crisis of huge proportions," Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo said.

The new government has announced reforms to the labour market, including cutting back on severance pay and restricting inflation-linked salary increases, that it hopes will ease the problem.

These measures have angered unions, which have organised widespread general strikes in protest.

The government has also introduced drastic spending cuts designed to reduce its debt levels and meet deficit targets agreed with the European Union. These cuts are contributing to Spain's economic contraction.

"In Spain today, a cycle similar to Greece is starting to develop," said HSBC chief economist Stephen King.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17866382

 

[gabriel]

karma's a drag aint it! lol

 

[OldGaffer]

The fruits of austerity, RMoney cant wait to put it in place here.

 

[Bo-4]

Hmmm, i'd work on that subject line Sarge. Don't see much relationship between Obama's second term and what's going on in Spain.

 

[Old Ridge Runner]

You see Sarge, you just teach the dumbass donkey people a damned thing.

 

[degsme]

Our future under a 2nd Obama term.
Spanish unemployment has hit a new record high, official figures have shown.

The number of unemployed people reached 5,639,500 at the end of March, with the unemployment rate hitting 24.4%, the national statistics agency said.

The figures came hours after rating agency Standard & Poor's downgraded Spanish sovereign debt.

"The figures are terrible for everyone and terrible for the government... Spain is in a crisis of huge proportions," Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo said.

The new government has announced reforms to the labour market, including cutting back on severance pay and restricting inflation-linked salary increases, that it hopes will ease the problem.

These measures have angered unions, which have organised widespread general strikes in protest.

The government has also introduced drastic spending cuts designed to reduce its debt levels and meet deficit targets agreed with the European Union. These cuts are contributing to Spain's economic contraction.

"In Spain today, a cycle similar to Greece is starting to develop," said HSBC chief economist Stephen King.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17866382

Exactly. And what FISCAL POLICIES are Greece and Spain pursuing?

Oh yeah - that's right... CCUTTING GOVERNEMNT SPENDING DURING A RECOVERY

Notice that the UK - ALSO has gone into a double dip recession by cutting government spending.

hmm

 

[degsme]

You see Sarge, you just teach the dumbass donkey people a damned thing.

And what pray tell is he "teaching"???


That if we don't re-elect Obama, that we will follow the path of Spain, Greece and the UK - ALL OF WHICH HAVE CUT GOVERNMENT SPENDING AND HAVE GONE BACK INTO RECESSION!!!

Or that "blackie Presidents are bad.... bad bad bad"?

 

[trapdoor]

Degs -- all those countries had to cut government spending because they'd spent themselves dry. It isn't the cuts to government spending that sent them into recession, it's the being broke.

 

[degsme]

Degs -- all those countries had to cut government spending because they'd spent themselves dry. It isn't the cuts to government spending that sent them into recession, it's the being broke.

UK did not "spend itself dry".
Spain and Italy have had corruption problems
Greece had a revenue collection problem

NONE OF WHICH APPLIES TO THE USA. Furthermore part of why they are "broke" is that they no longer control their own economies fully since they no longer control monetary policy.
also DOES NOT APPLY TO THE USA.

So to pretend that Spain or Greece are somehow the future of the USA is just irrational. A better comparison is the UK vs. Germany.

UK did what Staples and folks like you suggest - and crashed its economy into a second "double dip" recession

Germany OTOH, continues to spend on its social safetynet, bailed out its banks and is managing its economy very actively. and Germany

• Outperformed US GDP growht during the "oughts" Despite
  Higher income tax rates
  Higher corporate tax rates
  Higher percentage of the population receiving "social benefitis
• Came out of the recession faster than the USA

Same applies to Canada.

Heck the same even applies to France (other than the growth rate part that is).


Sorry the notion that someonw the USA is "on the road to Spain, much less Greece" simply is not supported by ANY DATA.



In point of fact, What Romney advocates is the same thing the Cameron government DID. And that CRASHED THE ECONOMY.

What Obama advocates is more like what Germany is doing.....

FACTS Trap
Logic.

 

[imreallyperplexed]

Au contraire Sarge ....

The current situation in Spain sounds like a preview of a first Romney Administration (or perhaps it would be better to call the first Romney Administration, the third Bush-Cheney Administration).

BTW, if you weren't paying attention, the Center-Right took power in Spain last November. Look where Spain is after six months of rule by the Center-Right. Why would Romney be any different from David Cameron (UK) or Mariano Rajoy (Spain)? Those two are the kings of the double-dip recession. A Romney Administration promises the same policies (coupled with increased defense spending!!!!) No thanks!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/20/us-spain-election-idUSTRE7AI10E20111120

Spanish unemployment has hit a new record high, official figures have shown.

The number of unemployed people reached 5,639,500 at the end of March, with the unemployment rate hitting 24.4%, the national statistics agency said.

The figures came hours after rating agency Standard & Poor's downgraded Spanish sovereign debt.

"The figures are terrible for everyone and terrible for the government... Spain is in a crisis of huge proportions," Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo said.

The new government has announced reforms to the labour market, including cutting back on severance pay and restricting inflation-linked salary increases, that it hopes will ease the problem.

These measures have angered unions, which have organised widespread general strikes in protest.

The government has also introduced drastic spending cuts designed to reduce its debt levels and meet deficit targets agreed with the European Union. These cuts are contributing to Spain's economic contraction.

"In Spain today, a cycle similar to Greece is starting to develop," said HSBC chief economist Stephen King.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17866382

 

[degsme]

The current situation in Spain sounds like a preview of a first Romney Administration (or perhaps it would be better to call the first Romney Administration, the third Bush-Cheney Administration).

nah. I don't think Romney would cause the level of corruption you see in Spain. It would be more like what the Cameron government in the UK faces. Namely a double dip recession in 2013 and then a stunning defeat in Congress and the Senate in 2014. Followed by gridlock, more recession and a Dem electedin 2016.

 

[imreallyperplexed]

Nevertheless, the center right was elected in Spain last November and took power promising austerity. Unemployment went up.

But I will grant that the details may be a bit different.

nah. I don't think Romney would cause the level of corruption you see in Spain. It would be more like what the Cameron government in the UK faces. Namely a double dip recession in 2013 and then a stunning defeat in Congress and the Senate in 2014. Followed by gridlock, more recession and a Dem electedin 2016.

 

[degsme]

Nevertheless, the center right was elected in Spain last November and took power promising austerity. Unemployment went up.

But I will grant that the details may be a bit different.

Agreed, Spain and Greece are - like the UK is- trapped in the spiral of trying to chase "fiscal austerity" while that very austerity crashes the economy even more and makes financial balance become ever further out of reach.

in fact I believe the last I read was that the "fiscally responsible" Center-Right in Spain was petitioning the EU to be allowed to run a higher debt than they origianlly promised. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9099483/Spain-appeals-to-Brussels-for-easier-deficit-reduction-targets.html

I wonder why......

 

[OldGaffer]

Can we call this "death spiral" economics?

 

[trapdoor]

UK did not "spend itself dry".
Spain and Italy have had corruption problems
Greece had a revenue collection problem

All three countries were saddled with expenditures that they could not finance. England has cut its expenditures, Greece has gone belly up. Spain? Teetering.

NONE OF WHICH APPLIES TO THE USA. Furthermore part of why they are "broke" is that they no longer control their own economies fully since they no longer control monetary policy.
also DOES NOT APPLY TO THE USA.

Unless I'm reading you wrong, this is a call for further monetizing of the U.S. debt. Monetizing the debt doesn't solve the problem, it merely replaces it with a different one.

So to pretend that Spain or Greece are somehow the future of the USA is just irrational. A better comparison is the UK vs. Germany.

Not a better comparison at all, Degs, as Germany still retains significant heavy industry, heavy industry contributing 29 percent of its GDP. The U.K. comes in at less than this with about 25 percent of its GDP coming from industry. The U.S. now has a manufacturing sector that makes up only 22 percent of its GDP. It could afford Germany's Keynesianism, in other words, if it could generate more real jobs, instead of "service" jobs (burger flippers) and too few of those.

UK did what Staples and folks like you suggest - and crashed its economy into a second "double dip" recession

UK spent 60 years doing what Keynes and people like you suggest, and it brought the country to the brink of bankruptcy.

Germany OTOH, continues to spend on its social safetynet, bailed out its banks and is managing its economy very actively. and Germany

• Outperformed US GDP growht during the "oughts" Despite
  Higher income tax rates
  Higher corporate tax rates
  Higher percentage of the population receiving "social benefitis
• Came out of the recession faster than the USA

Addressed above. Restore America's declining industry and maybe the economy will generate enough revenue for the German approach to work. Without additional revenue, the German approach can't work, especially if we devalue our currency by monetizing our debt.

What Obama advocates is more like what Germany is doing.....

Only without the tools Germany has. This is somewhat akin to building a log cabin using a welding torch.

FACTS Trap
Logic

.

One view of the facts, perhaps. Logic? Sorry.

 

[degsme]

UK did not "spend itself dry".
Spain and Italy have had corruption problems
Greece had a revenue collection problem

All three countries were saddled with expenditures that they could not finance. England has cut its expenditures, Greece has gone belly up. Spain? Teetering.

Four countries. And the UK was not "saddled with expenditures it could not finance. England cut its expenditures rather than finance them. And it has crashed its economy into a Double dip recession.

Unless I'm reading you wrong, this is a call for further monetizing of the U.S. debt. Monetizing the debt doesn't solve the problem, it merely replaces it with a different one.

You are presuming that the debt itself is "a problem" rather than the growth/debt ratio being the problem. Monetiation of the debt does potentially solve the latter issue.

So to pretend that Spain or Greece are somehow the future of the USA is just irrational. A better comparison is the UK vs. Germany.

Not a better comparison at all, Degs, as Germany still retains significant heavy industry, heavy industry contributing 29 percent of its GDP. The U.K. comes in at less than this with about 25 percent of its GDP coming from industry. The U.S. now has a manufacturing sector that makes up only 22 percent of its GDP. It could afford Germany's Keynesianism, in other words, if it could generate more real jobs, instead of "service" jobs (burger flippers) and too few of those.[/quote]
Germany has a different economic profile than the USA. While it has a tech sector it has no silicon forest nor silicon valley. that the USA's mfg sector is 22% of GDP doesn't mean that we have less "real jobs"... again, the issue of UK vs. Germany stands.

the UK opted to cut government spending and crashed into a double Dip recession. Germany has not. Nor is this the result of "60 years of Keynesian" economics. Thatcher reigned from 79-90 And in the process reversed most of the existing keynesian policies. And Blair was a "third way" Labour leader who also largely eschewed Keynesian policies. So you don't get to make that sort of bogus claim.

the UK was in trouble because of some of its fiscal policies. no quesiton. But what they demonstrated by cutting and falling into a double dip recession is that debt DURING A RECOVERY is not the worst problem. Growth/Debt ratio is the problem.

Agan, Germany has continued to deficit spend and to "invest" government funds in promoting domestic mfg as well as other "future oriented" technologies (Solar power, co-generation from heat sources etc).

There is nothing to indicate that the US economy won't generate enough revenues for the German approach to work. See the German Approach is to tax the inefficient sectors and fund the economcially efficient sectors. THAT'S The big difference between the UK/US and Germany. Starting with Reagan/Thatcher, we have spent 30 years doing the opposite.

As for devaluing the currency, actually that HELPS with the German approach in that like the Germans, it maximizes domestic production and internal consumption. Part of the problem is that right now a Lincoln Navigator isn't priced that differently from a BMW equivilent. a weaker dollar fixes that

So no, you have not addressed how cutting US Spending will avoid crashing the economy, just like the UK, or why the UK was unable to pursue the German model - other than for politically ideological reasons. Your economic claims simply don't ad up.

FACTS.. Logic.

 

[Doc]

Breaking out all over Western Civilization.

In the Future, Chinese, Russian and Persian Historians will call this time period "The Suicide of the West," and, it will be a Historical lesson in how best to destroy entire nations and civilizations......

(With a nice side Chapter, called "How to throw your friends to their enemies," which will cover how the West will finally serve up the Jewish people to their enemies...)

 

[OldGaffer]

Why the Zionism? We give the Israelis billions and billions, in fact over 30% of our foreign aid budget and yet you come with that?

 

[imreallyperplexed]

Doc,

I am not sure whether you remind me more of Mel Gibson in the Road Warrior or Pat Buchanan on his last book tour.

BTW, contrary to what you might believe, Jews have had to take a lot of crap from Europeans and Christians,

[video=youtube;Gdv5EtZQ6jg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gdv5EtZQ6jg[/video]

[video=youtube;EiY0ORLQDQo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiY0ORLQDQo[/video]

Breaking out all over Western Civilization.

In the Future, Chinese, Russian and Persian Historians will call this time period "The Suicide of the West," and, it will be a Historical lesson in how best to destroy entire nations and civilizations......

(With a nice side Chapter, called "How to throw your friends to their enemies," which will cover how the West will finally serve up the Jewish people to their enemies...)

 

[Sgt Staples]

Exactly. And what FISCAL POLICIES are Greece and Spain pursuing?

Oh yeah - that's right... CCUTTING GOVERNEMNT SPENDING DURING A RECOVERY

Notice that the UK - ALSO has gone into a double dip recession by cutting government spending.

Yep, they ran out of other people's money, funding liberal socialism which is basically giving away unearned"free stuff" a long time ago, borrowed what they couldn't tax. and now the shi'ite has hit the fan.

And It's coming right here to the United States. The gravy train has almost run out of gravy.

That's what happens when you depend on a big fat bloated government to feed you, to pay you not to work and pay for your doctor and hospital bills, pay your birth control pills, subsidize your college education.