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particle physics in a pig's eye

Discussion in 'PJ Post Hall of Fame!' started by Days, Apr 20, 2016.

  1. Days

    Days Governor

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    No matter how fast the wave is moving, it is still dissipating into the space it is filling. No matter how far all these galaxies are actually away from us, the volume of stellar wind is the same. If everything is 1000 times closer than we think, the cross winds are 1000x stronger, either way, the most distant starlight is never going to survive the journey to our telescope lens. The scientists all assume we can only detect that which reaches us, what they fail to take in account is that the light has to make that journey. They never think about the journey... they assume the journey is accomplished because they assume the light hit the lens of the telescope, but when you stop to think about it, the journey is utterly impossible.
     
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  2. Woolleybugger

    Woolleybugger Mayor

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    I have no idea what you mean by a telescope traveling through space while observing light. Makes absolutely no sense. The light that hits a telescope exists at the lens at the moment it hits the telescope. Move the telescope back or forward and the same thing occurs. Whatever reasoning you use for distant objects would also apply to nearby objects. Care to explain how the light from the moon seen by my eye is actually my eye moving towards the moon?
     
  3. Days

    Days Governor

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    Not sure I understand it myself. What I do understand is this; a galaxy 12 billion light years off in the distance, is not shining one photon of light onto our telescopes. Absolutely no starlight can travel 12 billion light years and still exist, there is no image on the lens that can be magnified. The idea that the lens magnification can pull you forward to a location where the image still exists sounds just as impossible to me as it does to you, but we have all seen the pics, so the telescope is capturing the light, and there's no way that image of light still existed after traveling 12 BILLION LIGHT YEARS.

    Don't think of the distance in terms of years, think of it in terms of distance, think of the journey the wave of light is making... it never reaches here, it never reaches half way here, it is hard to imagine it traveling through 2 billion light years of stellar wind and surviving. If there was no other stars, then yeah, distance doesn't matter, the wave will travel out to infinity. But in the real universe, it is the exact same electromagnetic wave as all the other stars; remember physics? What happens when two electromagnetic waves of the same frequency collide? Think of radio waves. Why won't the FCC allow two radio stations broadcast on the same frequency in the same area? Yeah, the waves merge with one another. The stellar wind is going to wash that far away image away, once it gets weak the wave that is producing the image is going to be absorbed into the ocean of stellar wind. It isn't that the light is too weak to detect, that's not what I'm saying, what I'm saying is the electromagnetic wave that the image is riding on, is completely gone, it no longer exists.

    We think - when we look at a star - that the light from that star is crossing through space, a total void, not hitting anything. But in that space there is electromagnetic waves shining in every direction. Look at all the stars around the star you are looking at... all of them are sending out radiation in a global expansion, all of them are crossing over the path that the starlight took to get to our eye. There is an ocean of stellar wind in the emptiness of space. When starlight travels far enough to become very weak, the cross currents of the stellar wind tear the wave apart. Physicists don't disagree with that, they just ignore it. Cuz, it seems impossible for the telescope lens to travel forward, our basic instinct tells us the light travels to the telescope lens... and we cling to that, even after we know the light never makes it to the telescope lens... so now what?

    I don't know how it works, I don't know how it is possible for the lens to travel forward to the light, all I know is it must be happening, because option #1 isn't happening and there is no option #3.
     
  4. The Sage of Main Street

    The Sage of Main Street Mayor

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    Postmodern Physics, Like Postmodern Culture, Is Decadent and Should Be Dismissed

    The friction of space, which is a substance, drags on light to reduce its velocity to c. No other substance affects it, since other forces are blocked by space itself.

    How can any light from these terminal galaxies appear at all if they can be affected by anything along the way? Besides, your radio frequency analogy is inaccurate. I've been in small towns where the local station can only block the national or big-city station within the town itself. It does not reduce the volume when the bigger station comes back on the radio. So it is like a car radio being muffled by the sound of a faulty engine. Once that is turned off, the volume comes back to the original level.
     
  5. Days

    Days Governor

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    You are preaching the aether again, space is only capable of producing friction if it is composed of something. If space is composed of nothing, it isn't matter, it is the absence of matter. There is matter traveling through space but that's not the same as space being composed of matter (such as the string theory)... any theory that contends there is matter in space - no matter how small that matter is - is returning to the aether.

    The light can appear as long as it is more powerful than the cross winds. You dismissed the radio waves without realizing that radio waves are electromagnetic waves, same as visible light, it is just a different frequency on the electromagnetic wave spectrum. Stars emit the entire spectrum, that's why we can look at them in the gamma ray frequency, x-ray frequency, visible light frequency, microwave frequency, and even listen to their radio waves. There's no blocking going on in space, it is an all natural universe, filled with an infinite number of stars all broadcasting the entire electromagnetic wave spectrum from the very same source: fusion. So, not only do the radio waves merge, the whole spectrum of waves merge. As long as the wave has some strength, it just strengthens it to merge with other waves; the journey is a constant voyage of merging with other waves, it is only when the wave becomes very weak that it is going to get ripped apart... the other waves will absorb it. This is very predicable, we can not see the vast majority of stars because of all the stars that block their view, but we claim to have looked at stars 12 billion light years away and I find that concept something of an enigma, it shouldn't be possible.
     
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  6. Puzzling Evidence

    Puzzling Evidence Mayor

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    [​IMG]

    In December 1995, the Hubble Space Telescope, high above the Earth, focused on a tiny spot of dark sky for over 150 consecutive orbits. The result was the deepest view into space we had ever had up to that time. Here we see about a fourth of that "deep field" and it shows galaxies (and only galaxies) at many different distances. The farthest among these galaxies is estimated to be so far away, its light has taken over 10 billion years to reach us. So we are seeing these galaxies as they were billions of years ago, when they were much younger. (Courtesy Robert Williams, the Hubble Deep Field Team, and NASA)

    https://astrosociety.org/edu/publications/tnl/56/deepField.html
     
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  7. Puzzling Evidence

    Puzzling Evidence Mayor

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    The journey absolutely is possible. What would lead you to this conclusion? Stars emit an enormous amount of light. The speed of light (except for certain radiation in short bursts) is the fastest and most long-lasting energy in the universe. Don't forget, the sol is the same for all observers, no matter what speed or position. This has never to date, been disproven.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018 at 10:53 PM
  8. Puzzling Evidence

    Puzzling Evidence Mayor

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    What are photons made of

    As far as we know, they are elementary particles. They are excitations of a bosonic quantum field and not made out of anything.

    how are they created

    Through processes that involve the electromagnetic interaction in general and accelerating, vibrating or jumping electrons in particular.

    https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/146975/is-a-photon-really-massless
     
  9. Days

    Days Governor

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    You have to understand that there are quadrillions of stars in front of / closer to us. So here you are looking at light from a galaxy 10 billion light years away. Remember, a light year is a measure of distance. Since galaxies contain - on average - 50 to 100 billion stars, they tend to be relatively the same brightness. This means, that as the light travels from those farthest away galaxies, it has to cross stellar winds that are constantly getting stronger relative to the dissipation of their wave. Most stars emit a gas and that gas is supposedly filled with particles, so according to science, the stellar winds should be quite destructive to weakened electromagnetic waves. Think of it this way, if you drop a boulder into the ocean, it sends out a wave, but as that wave meets other waves it gets degraded and soon is gone, even a large swell is not going to travel all the way across the Pacific Ocean... and that's nothing compared to the journey starlight has to make from 10 billion lightyears away.

    stellar winds (Link)
     
  10. Puzzling Evidence

    Puzzling Evidence Mayor

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    While the link was certainly fascinating, you did not explain how the mineral-rich stellar wind destroyed light.

    Light bounces off of objects - even heat can do this, but mass-less light always does.

    If an object is in the direct path of a light source, only some of the light will hit the object and be reflected. the rest will 'swim' around the massive object's gravitational field and continue on its journey. .
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018 at 8:12 AM
  11. Days

    Days Governor

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    The stellar winds are not objects in the path of light (btw, light bends around objects in its path, the light that bounces is headed in a different direction or even backwards, but it is the property of bending that allows an electromagnetic wave to stay intact and keep moving outward. Remember, as it moves, it expands, hence, it dissipates)... the stellar winds are more of the same ... starlight crosses stronger starlight, hence, as the wave travels a great journey it is expanding, dissipating, and being merged with stronger waves.

    Everything in a stellar wind is riding the electromagnetic wave, that's how it escapes the star. Very little mass escapes a star and the star is absorbing mass. so the nuclear fusion furnace burns a long, long time. That fusion explosion is emitting electromagnetic waves, the whole spectrum, when we look at a star, we are looking at the electromagnetic wave, we can do that at any of the frequencies present, when we are talking about starlight, we are talking about the electromagnetic wave at the frequency of visible light, but that is a tiny fraction of the electromagnetic spectrum, the star is kicking out the whole spectrum, there's the whole spectrum of the electromagnetic wave and it can include gases and even particles... there's a lot more there than meets the eye.

    A star that is 10 billion light years off in the distance, has filled a globe the size of the whole known galaxy with its electromagnetic wave, by the time that starlight has reached us. Think of a globe, 20 billion light years in diameter. That's the dissipation of the electromagnetic wave. In the course of traveling that distance, the electromagnetic wave is going to encounter trillions of other electromagnetic waves, and as the wave travels farther and farther and expands and dissipates, it keeps hitting strong waves from stars it passes.

    If it was possible for the human mind to grasp the size of a globe - 20 billion light years in diameter - then anyone would readily understand how weak starlight becomes as it encounters the stellar wind ... and the stellar wind is mostly as strong as the electromagnetic wave was when it began, because in the course of the journey, the stellar wind is constantly being filled with stars nearby, there's trillions of stars shining their electromagnetic waves into that journey. When the radiation wave begins, it is real strong, but think how much space it fills by the time it reaches an object 10 billion light years away; how weak has the electromagnetic wave become by the time it has attempted to fill a globe 20 billion light years in diameter? Light travels 186,000 miles/second in a straight line, but just because we can measure it in a straight line doesn't mean light travels in a straight line, light is a wave and it expands globally as a wave, as such it dissipates in strength rather quickly. So, at the end of one year of travel, the electromagnetic wave has filled a globe 11.73 Trillion miles in diameter. A star that is 10 billion light years off in the distance has filled a 234.6 sextillion mile diameter globe with its electromagnetic wave and that wave has crossed trillions of stars, each emitting their own electromagnetic wave. The stellar wind is going to destroy that wave long before it expands to fill a 234,600,000,000,000,000,000,000 mile diameter globe.

    I highly doubt starlight could survive a 2 billion light year journey, let alone a 10 billion light year journey. It is just my opinion, but if you look at what is happening there, if you look at the dissipating wave constantly encountering fresh strong waves - all in the same frequencies - there's no way the stellar wind isn't eroding starlight as it travels through the universe... and if it is eroding starlight, then how far can an electromagnetic wave expand before it gets washed away by the stellar wind?
     

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