PJ Poll: Abortion Timing

[Jen]

There has always been debate about exactly what an abortion aborts. Is it a bunch of cells that might one day form a baby? Is it a "fetus" which is absolutely not a baby?

At what time in a pregnancy is an abortion of a baby, not cells or a fetus? At exactly what time does a fetus become a baby?

 

[fairsheet]

Fetus, baby,....whatever. What matters is when "life" begins. Life begins whenever we humans decide it does. Sure, we can say that it's up to God, not us. The problem with that is that since we can't know God's mind for sure, we're left to making the decision for ourselves.

IMHO, the earlier in the process that we humans decide life begins, the better off we are. But, in order for us to be better off, it has to be our decision.

 

[Max R.]

There has always been debate about exactly what an abortion aborts. Is it a bunch of cells that might one day form a baby? Is it a "fetus" which is absolutely not a baby?

At what time in a pregnancy is an abortion of a baby, not cells or a fetus? At exactly what time does a fetus become a baby?

24 weeks is the common legal definition. Sounds about right to me.

An apple seed isn't the same as an apple tree and a zygote is not a human being.

 

[Jen]

Fetus, baby,....whatever. What matters is when "life" begins. Life begins whenever we humans decide it does. Sure, we can say that it's up to God, not us. The problem with that is that since we can't know God's mind for sure, we're left to making the decision for ourselves.

IMHO, the earlier in the process that we humans decide life begins, the better off we are. But, in order for us to be better off, it has to be our decision.

So .... WE decide that it is after the last toe emerges from the canal......... but God has decided it's when the baby is viable.......about 20 weeks gestation............. and WE think our decision is fine until we end up in permanent Hell for killing an innocent baby. Yep. That'll work fine.

 

[Jen]

There has always been debate about exactly what an abortion aborts. Is it a bunch of cells that might one day form a baby? Is it a "fetus" which is absolutely not a baby?

At what time in a pregnancy is an abortion of a baby, not cells or a fetus? At exactly what time does a fetus become a baby?

My personal thought is that abortion is wrong.
Laws can make abortion legal, but they don't make abortion morally right.
Abortion carried out after a baby is viable is infanticide, not fetal abortion.

 

[Caroljo]

Personally, I would say weeks 6 to 7....


Weeks 6 - 7

• Arm and leg buds start to grow.
• Your baby's brain forms into five different areas. Some cranial nerves are visible.
• Eyes and ears begin to form.
• Tissue grows that will become your baby's spine and other bones.
• Baby's heart continues to grow and now beats at a regular rhythm.
• Blood pumps through the main vessels.

But once it becomes a Fetus (which it is until it's born)...for me would be the cut-off for abortions.

Week 10

• Your baby's eyelids are more developed and begin to close.
• The outer ears begin to take shape.
• Baby's facial features become more distinct.
• The intestines rotate.
• At the end of the 10th week of pregnancy, your baby is no longer an embryo. It is now a fetus, the stage of development up until birth.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002398.htm

I'm not completely against abortion....but I believe there needs to be a big need for it. The life of the mother for one. I can also understand if through ultra sound it shows the child is such that it could never live on it's own. Or if a young girl (underage) is raped and becomes pregnant, her body may not be able to handle this let alone her mental state. Having an abortion just because you're not ready for a child is never an excuse. Have the child and put it up for adoption.

 

[Jen]

Personally, I would say weeks 6 to 7....


Weeks 6 - 7

• Arm and leg buds start to grow.
• Your baby's brain forms into five different areas. Some cranial nerves are visible.
• Eyes and ears begin to form.
• Tissue grows that will become your baby's spine and other bones.
• Baby's heart continues to grow and now beats at a regular rhythm.
• Blood pumps through the main vessels.

But once it becomes a Fetus (which it is until it's born)...for me would be the cut-off for abortions.

Week 10

• Your baby's eyelids are more developed and begin to close.
• The outer ears begin to take shape.
• Baby's facial features become more distinct.
• The intestines rotate.
• At the end of the 10th week of pregnancy, your baby is no longer an embryo. It is now a fetus, the stage of development up until birth.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002398.htm

I'm not completely against abortion....but I believe there needs to be a big need for it. The life of the mother for one. I can also understand if through ultra sound it shows the child is such that it could never live on it's own. Or if a young girl (underage) is raped and becomes pregnant, her body may not be able to handle this let alone her mental state. Having an abortion just because you're not ready for a child is never an excuse. Have the child and put it up for adoption.

The reason I believe abortion should be legal is so that, in those extreme cases where abortion may be the way to go, doctors don't have to waste the time jumping through legal hoops to do it. But there should be a definite cut off at about 20 weeks where abortion is totally illegal. If the mother's life is in danger, take the baby and try to save it. As far as I know there is no reason to kill a baby to save the mother.

 

[Caroljo]

The reason I believe abortion should be legal is so that, in those extreme cases where abortion may be the way to go, doctors don't have to waste the time jumping through legal hoops to do it. But there should be a definite cut off at about 20 weeks where abortion is totally illegal. If the mother's life is in danger, take the baby and try to save it. As far as I know there is no reason to kill a baby to save the mother.

I agree....if the child can be taken and save both the mother and child, it needs to be done. I'm talking about extreme cases, as if the mother will die if the pregnancy isn't terminated right away. But if she's far enough along that the child could also be saved (whether she wants that child or not), it should be. Like I said, the child can be adopted.

 

[fairsheet]

So .... WE decide that it is after the last toe emerges from the canal......... but God has decided it's when the baby is viable.......about 20 weeks gestation............. and WE think our decision is fine until we end up in permanent Hell for killing an innocent baby. Yep. That'll work fine.

You seem convinced, sans any proof whatsoever, that God believes life to begin at 20 weeks. I'm convinced, sans any proof whatsoever, that life begins at conception. I like my choice of belief better, and am convinced that it better serves humanity. That's that.

 

[Jen]

You seem convinced, sans any proof whatsoever, that God believes life to begin at 20 weeks. I'm convinced, sans any proof whatsoever, that life begins at conception. I like my choice of belief better, and am convinced that it better serves humanity. That's that.

No. I said what if WE decide one thing, and God decides another............ OUR deciding something like that is meaningless. Whatever God decides is going to be IT.

 

[fairsheet]

No. I said what if WE decide one thing, and God decides another............ OUR deciding something like that is meaningless. Whatever God decides is going to be IT.

Feel as you will.

 

[Jen]

Feel as you will.

Doesn't matter what I think, Fairsheet.

Either YOU are in charge (as you believe)
or
God is. (as I believe)

heh

 

[fairsheet]

Doesn't matter what I think, Fairsheet.

Either YOU are in charge (as you believe)
or
God is. (as I believe)

heh

I AM in charge. As we don't have God's e-mail address, who the hell else IS in charge? So....the question (at least for me), becomes: What do I suppose God thinks? Does life begin at conception or does it begin at the date some collection of sinners (us) decides that it does? You feel that it begins at 20 weeks.....good for you. I like my feeling better.

 

[RickWA]

There has always been debate about exactly what an abortion aborts. Is it a bunch of cells that might one day form a baby? Is it a "fetus" which is absolutely not a baby?

At what time in a pregnancy is an abortion of a baby, not cells or a fetus? At exactly what time does a fetus become a baby?

Conception. From the perspective of valuing life and recognizing God's hand in it, I dare not parse weeks of gestation. If He blesses us with conceiving - and if we are human - we are incubating human life at the moment of conception. It's not dead, it's alive. It's not a tree frog, it's human. To task the organism to greater rigors is to devalue it.

That is my definition - and that is what causes my flat rejection of abortion as evil and wrong. I make that determination personally and we, in my family, live by that standard. I do not seek to codify or impose my definition societally outside of my immediate circle of family and friends.

 

[Jen]

Conception. From the perspective of valuing life and recognizing God's hand in it, I dare not parse weeks of gestation. If He blesses us with conceiving - and if we are human - we are incubating human life at the moment of conception. It's not dead, it's alive. It's not a tree frog, it's human. To task the organism to greater rigors is to devalue it.

That is my definition - and that is what causes my flat rejection of abortion as evil and wrong. I make that determination personally and we, in my family, live by that standard. I do not seek to codify or impose my definition societally outside of my immediate circle of family and friends.

Legality of abortion does not mean that it is morally right.
And to me it is morally wrong to abort. Always. So I agree with you.

My question is when does a fetus, that Leftists believe should be permissible by law to abort........become a baby - which is not permissible by law to kill.

Leftists seem to have a little problem defining exactly when that moment in time is. They seem to call an unborn baby a "fetus" right up to its birth thus implying it's okay to kill it until then.

In this post I am trying to see if we can get a sense of when Leftists feel that fetus [okay to kill] changes over to being a baby [not okay to kill].

So far I have seen plenty of dithering and no firm answers.

 

[Jen]

I AM in charge. As we don't have God's e-mail address, who the hell else IS in charge? So....the question (at least for me), becomes: What do I suppose God thinks? Does life begin at conception or does it begin at the date some collection of sinners (us) decides that it does? You feel that it begins at 20 weeks.....good for you. I like my feeling better.

My question, fairsheet, is when does a fetus become a baby. I said around 20 weeks. That means that IF you subscribe to the reasoning that it is okay to kill a fetus, but not a baby..............then in MY opinion you would have 20 weeks to (legally) kill it.

I, personally am 100% against abortion from conception.
My question wasn't about that. It was specifically (and aimed at Leftists ) when does a fetus turn into a baby.

My guess is that when God said "Thou shall not MURDER" (the original word was murder, not kill - two different things)............ he meant the murder of innocents and babies in the womb are definitely that.

 

[RickWA]

Legality of abortion does not mean that it is morally right.
And to me it is morally wrong to abort. Always. So I agree with you.

My question is when does a fetus, that Leftists believe should be permissible by law to abort........become a baby - which is not permissible by law to kill.

Leftists seem to have a little problem defining exactly when that moment in time is. They seem to call an unborn baby a "fetus" right up to its birth thus implying it's okay to kill it until then.

In this post I am trying to see if we can get a sense of when Leftists feel that fetus [okay to kill] changes over to being a baby [not okay to kill].

So far I have seen plenty of dithering and no firm answers.

I refuse to use the term "fetus" or "tissue" or "tissue blob". If someone wants to have a wart removed, God bless 'em. That's removal of unwanted tissue. If they want to kill their unborn, I'm going to call it what it is - but my activism to forbid it stays within my circle of family and friends. The state is a poor instrument to coerce Christian sensibilities - and science can't definitively outline or identify "life" threshold (other than this nonsense about "viability").

It seems that liberty requires that we abide some things we know to be wrong. This is incredibly painful for me, but it's where I am.

 

[Jen]

I refuse to use the term "fetus" or "tissue" or "tissue blob". If someone wants to have a wart removed, God bless 'em. That's removal of unwanted tissue. If they want to kill their unborn, I'm going to call it what it is - but my activism to forbid it stays within my circle of family and friends. The state is a poor instrument to coerce Christian sensibilities - and science can't definitively outline or identify "life" threshold (other than this nonsense about "viability").

It seems that liberty requires that we abide some things we know to be wrong. This is incredibly painful for me, but it's where I am.

Leftists use that term and I really want them to stand up and clarify it for us.

I want them to stand up and say................ where is that point of time ........to them.

How long does a baby get to live before they say it should not be killed?

All I want is for them to be honest about that.

 

[fairsheet]

My question, fairsheet, is when does a fetus become a baby. I said around 20 weeks. That means that IF you subscribe to the reasoning that it is okay to kill a fetus, but not a baby..............then in MY opinion you would have 20 weeks to (legally) kill it.

I, personally am 100% against abortion from conception.
My question wasn't about that. It was specifically (and aimed at Leftists ) when does a fetus turn into a baby.

My guess is that when God said "Thou shall not MURDER" (the original word was murder, not kill - two different things)............ he meant the murder of innocents and babies in the womb are definitely that.

I know. I think what I did there, qualifies as a "hi-jacking"!!!

 

[Jen]

I know. I think what I did there, qualifies as a "hi-jacking"!!!

Uggggghhhhh..................
You just took a tiny tangent and I didn't turn you in.
I was thread banned for hijacking today and I didn't do it, so I'm a little thenthitive on that for now.