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So libs. What would you say to these parents?

Discussion in 'Government Offices and Programs' started by Alinvegas, Nov 11, 2011.

  1. Lapcat

    Lapcat Governor

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    Wrong, as usual. That program was called Operation Wide Receiver. The Obama administration and Holder extended the policy of letting guns 'walk' south of the border....but with disastrious results. Why? To use it as a method with which to attack the 2nd Amendment and gun ownership, of course.

    Holder's a LIAR....just like Obama is. And this scandal is just gettin legs.




     
  2. Lapcat

    Lapcat Governor

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    Facts are facts.

    Got any?
     
  3. Lapcat

    Lapcat Governor

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    Military deaths and other such "collateral damage" deaths only matter.... if they happen during a Republican presidency, Jen. YOU know that!
     
  4. Boca

    Boca Governor

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    So much for critical thinking, insofar as you seem to have missed the point....and not by a little either.

    Be that as it may, what does your response have to do with the Attorney General's people encouraging the sale of weapons illegally.

    If you still don't understand google Attorney General. There ought to something somewhere about his duties vis a vis the law.
     
  5. middleview

    middleview President Supporting Member

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    Who is paying for the placement of the court on the carrier deck? It isn't as though the president has actually ordered the ship to steam up and down the coast of California so he can have a photo op. Morale Entertainment, a company that arranges for groups around the world to meet troops, and ESPN are splitting the costs of staging the game, believed to be in the mid-seven figures.

    No tickets were sold. Each school received about 400 tickets, Quicken Loans, the title sponsor and State Farm, the secondary sponsor, received some and the rest went to men and women in the military.

    Remember that Bush set a record for vacation days....77 trips to Crawford, Texas.....that is what you guys supported.....
     
  6. middleview

    middleview President Supporting Member

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    1. That Holder was told that there was a surveillance program under way doesn't mean that they told him the full details of Fast and Furious.
    2. I provided a link that says Fast and Furious was a project under the Operation Gun Runner.....use your head for a minute....a major ATF operation would not be completely seperate because of the costs and administrative nightmare of establishing completely different interfaces with the Mexican authorities.

    Scandal? The republicans are investigating. We'll see what they turn up. Looks to me like a badly run and barely reported deal that lost track of weapons when the Mexicans were supposed to have picked up responsibility for following them.....should the Phoenix office have shut it down as soon as they realized that they were losing weapons? Probably. Does it mean that it was a plot by Obama to get more gun control legislation? Freakin' silly allegation.....
     
  7. criticalthinking

    criticalthinking Council Member

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    Maybe you shouldn't have brought up something as irrelevant as Katrina being an act of god then. I'm just mentioning, since you brought it up, that god has nothing to do with how Katrina became a debacle.
     
  8. KnotaFrayed

    KnotaFrayed Mayor

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    I believe the idea is to set up a purchase of weapons by posing as a dealer, letting the deal go through (you can't arrest people until the "transaction" happens) At the time of the exchange of money for weapons, the purchaser was then arrested. The problem with that is that those who wanted buy the weapons would send a straw buyer knowing they might run into a sting operation. Arresting a straw buyer is like arresting Al Capone's driver when they are sent by Al Capone to pick up a package. Al Capone is the person wanted, not his drivers. Al Capone just keeps hiring new drivers and law enforcement can get no closer to Al Capone by arresting the driver in order to not let the package the driver picks up out of sight. Unless they let the driver take the package back to Al Capone and catch Al Capone then taking possession of the package, the efforts to get Al Capone are fruitless and a waste of time and money and a jail full of drivers, who might be guilty of working for a criminal, but not behind the operations.

    Letting the guns "walk" with the "straw buyer" instead of arresting the "straw buyer" at the time of transaction and taking back the weapons, the "straw buyer" is allowed to make the purchase and take the guns with them in the hopes those who hired the "straw buyers" can be caught taking possession of the weapons. Once that happens the idea is to arrest them, but as you mention, that takes cooperation across borders. If they are not arrested on this side of the border and weapons cross the border it is up to Mexican authorities and a cooperative agreement to track the weapons and make arrests.

    While some want to claim the U.S. essentially put guns in the hands of people that did harm to other people with those guns as if those people would not have otherwise had guns or done the same harm. That refuses to consider the likelyhood that the same people would have likely had the same guns and done the same harm without the ATF operation. It suggests they would NOT have purchased the same weapons somewhere else and the same events would have unfolded with those weapons, rather than ones traced to a sting operation which was at least trying to do something about illegal gun trafficking to.

    In short, the same harm could or have as likely occurred even if the ATF did not exist, it just would have been weapons bought on the black market that were not part of a sting operation instead of ones that were part of a sting operation.
     
  9. smallstuff

    smallstuff Council Member

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    Why wasn't J. Edgar Hoover prosecuted then? He was th dirtiest of the dirty and no one to date has held the American Justice system in the palm of their perverted hand like he did. He broke every law there was to break in the name of law enforcement. I encourage you to see the movie by Clint Eastwood, (I have not yet) but I have read volumes of biographies on that man, he was low down dirty, worse than the scum he claimed were the crooks. Holder is a choir boy compared to Hoover.
     
  10. Boca

    Boca Governor

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    If you'll recall

    Dreg's question was, "This was Obama's snafu how??? "

    As you pointed out the Homeland Security/FEMA/Bush response to Katrina was less than spectacular....let's call it a snafu if we must to get the friggin' point across.

    The Justice Department/ATF/Obama snafu is no different, except that the impetus was not an act of God. (If the mention of God offends you so let's just say Mother Nature okay?) Are you following? If so we can also differentiate the two snafus this way.

    One resulted from an act of Mother Nature and the response was legal, while the other was neither Secondly, the FEMA director resigned without lying in a Congressional hearing as far as I know.

    Hope that clears it up. Since dregs hasn't been back I assume he at least understood.
     
  11. Colorforms

    Colorforms Senator

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    Not only am I not kidding, the article backs me up. Bush was held responsible for the actions of his people, Obama, if he was a leader, should be held responsible.

    But then, I doubt many are fooled into believing Obama is any kind of a leader.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. middleview

    middleview President Supporting Member

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    I'll ask again. "When Did Bush Take Responsibility?"......Yes, Bush was held responsible for Fema's pretty miserable performance, but Bush never said "I made a mistake putting an idiot in charge of Fema". Bush was held responsible for screwing up in Afghanistan and not providing enough force to close the border with Pakistan.....but Bush never said "Yup, I was told we only had 50 guys in Tora Bora, but me and Rummy thought that them and the local warlord troops should have been enough....we was wrong". He never admitted that his treasury secretary, Paul O'Neill was right when he said it would be a huge mistake to cut taxes back in 2001.

    There is a huge difference between accepting responsibility and having it thrown at you.
     
  13. middleview

    middleview President Supporting Member

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    Each of these points is a fact. If you disagree then provide a link to your source.

    1. All insurance plans have a committee that makes a decision on certain procedures and whether they are covered and how much the insurance plan will pay. "Means testing"? So you are saying that if someone makes too much money, has no insurance, they should get the same subsidies that poor people do? Pretty lame definition of "death panel" and you know it.

    2. Go back in your family tree. When did they become Christians....because you can bet your ass that at some time in the past they were not. That his fathers relatives are Kenyan doesn't make Obama Muslim and your attempt to justify that particular lie shows just what kind of person you are.

    3. Apologizer? Prove it. Find one single speech in which Obama uses the word sorry or apologize....

    4. Born in Kenya....that only works if you ignore that the translator mis-translated and she immediately corrected when the translation was corrected. The right wingers had to trim that conversation to work....making them liars, since out of context quotes are clearly intended to mislead. So what are you? A liar or intentionally misled?
     
  14. middleview

    middleview President Supporting Member

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    I hadn't heard that the ATF was setting up sales of weapons. I had heard that gun shops were cooperating in some way. I've understood that all of the purchases were legal, because none of the people being tracked had been convicted of a felony, but reporting mechanisms for multiple purchases had identified them as probable straw buyers.

    The ATF could have arrested the individuals, since the evidence of multiple purchases with the guns having disappeared would indicate illegal trafficing in guns.....probably a pretty low level misdemeanor. "So you bought a hundred guns and currently have none in your posession. Where are they".....answer: "Fifth amendment". Not much of a deterrence.

    I agree with you about how minor a victory it would be to arrest Capone's driver. The idea that operations like this would be illegal is pretty silly. The police regularly run stings and drug buys and sales operations. By their logic, all of those cops could be indicted.
     
  15. middleview

    middleview President Supporting Member

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    I've seen emergency vehicles in Nevada flying down the freeway at 90.....you gotta be kidding.
     
  16. middleview

    middleview President Supporting Member

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    The response to the flooding in New Orleans was to send in Fema folks a week later. The problem with the Bush administration was having appointed a Fema director with a resume that last had him managing judges in equestrian shows. Saying Brown was inept would be polite. No, it was not illegal. Bush appointed Brown. Obama did not appoint the career ATF people who were running Fast and Furious. Does that clear things up for you?

    The Operation GunRunner project, which had been going on since 2005 was an effort to stem the flow of guns into Mexico. Law enforcement, over time, have staked out criminals and observed their actions to gather evidence against them and others. Not every observed crime resulted in an arrest. Frequently the criminal was simply kept under surveillance to find out who bought the stolen goods or drugs or guns....depending on the investigation. Fast and Furious was an attempt to coordinate the investigation between Mexican law enforcement and the ATF to capture those on both sides of the border. It looks to me like the Mexicans didn't do the best job of tracking those guns once they were on Mexican soil and that is how they were lost.

    So what, exactly, was illegal about the operation? Holder said he hadn't heard of Fast and Furious, but then there are emails that describe a cross border operation....I did not see any of those emails that contained the name "Fast and Furious". You say Holder lied....why isn't Issa prosecuting him? Lying under oath to congress is under Issa's responsibility to actually do something....he has not. I can only assume you have an answer to that.
     
  17. Jen

    Jen meh

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  18. Citizen

    Citizen Council Member

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    I hear he WOULD say sorry, if only Bush & Cheney would first say they are sorry for causing the deaths of over 4 THOUSAND innocent troops sent to die in thie war based on LIES while they let the TERRORIST that did attack the USA go free.


    Why don't I ever see you upset about that?




    All Hail King Blam !!!!
     
  19. Jen

    Jen meh

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    You might see it, Cit, if you went to a post where that sort of answer was RELEVANT. However, this post was about another subject. Try to figure it out, Cit. It's really not all that difficult.:focus:
     
  20. Citizen

    Citizen Council Member

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    Ah the old spin & dodge....
     

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