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So our country was founded by less than perfect people!

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Now there is a shocking bit of news...but those people, mostly men, did risk all to found the country. If they'd lost the war they certainly would have "hanged together". Some people may think the world would be better off if there had been no revolutionary war. No independent USA. I think the good about this country is far better than the bad.

So some of those founders owned slaves...does that mean we should not honor their contribution to building a nation? I say no. Racism was pretty common for hundreds of years. Should we judge Lincoln by today's standards? Seems kind of dumb to me...who knows what values may be accepted in a hundred years that many of us would be condemned by long after we are gone? Did Lincoln think highly of blacks? Doesn't seem so. Did his official acts benefit blacks in America?
In fact, isn't it true that his official policies benefited African Americans for all time, changing the course of our country forever? Didn't he actually lose his life because of that?

To fail to balance their contributions with what anyone sees as their failures is simply short sighted. If we want to go down that road then wouldn't we also have to take down Martin Luther King statues? He wasn't perfect either.
 

Boltlady

Mayor
Now there is a shocking bit of news...but those people, mostly men, did risk all to found the country. If they'd lost the war they certainly would have "hanged together". Some people may think the world would be better off if there had been no revolutionary war. No independent USA. I think the good about this country is far better than the bad.

So some of those founders owned slaves...does that mean we should not honor their contribution to building a nation? I say no. Racism was pretty common for hundreds of years. Should we judge Lincoln by today's standards? Seems kind of dumb to me...who knows what values may be accepted in a hundred years that many of us would be condemned by long after we are gone? Did Lincoln think highly of blacks? Doesn't seem so. Did his official acts benefit blacks in America?
In fact, isn't it true that his official policies benefited African Americans for all time, changing the course of our country forever? Didn't he actually lose his life because of that?

To fail to balance their contributions with what anyone sees as their failures is simply short sighted. If we want to go down that road then wouldn't we also have to take down Martin Luther King statues? He wasn't perfect either.
It's amazing that you can understand that it's necessary to look past people's imperfections to honor their value because of the good things they've done and yet you are totally incapable of doing the same with our President.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
Now there is a shocking bit of news...but those people, mostly men, did risk all to found the country. If they'd lost the war they certainly would have "hanged together". Some people may think the world would be better off if there had been no revolutionary war. No independent USA. I think the good about this country is far better than the bad.

So some of those founders owned slaves...does that mean we should not honor their contribution to building a nation? I say no. Racism was pretty common for hundreds of years. Should we judge Lincoln by today's standards? Seems kind of dumb to me...who knows what values may be accepted in a hundred years that many of us would be condemned by long after we are gone? Did Lincoln think highly of blacks? Doesn't seem so. Did his official acts benefit blacks in America?
In fact, isn't it true that his official policies benefited African Americans for all time, changing the course of our country forever? Didn't he actually lose his life because of that?

To fail to balance their contributions with what anyone sees as their failures is simply short sighted. If we want to go down that road then wouldn't we also have to take down Martin Luther King statues? He wasn't perfect either.
Fair query. Seems these statues etc exist as reminders of where we came from...the road travelled..good and bad


The problem being...many today dont have the fortitude to handle it
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Fair query. Seems these statues etc exist as reminders of where we came from...the road travelled..good and bad


The problem being...many today dont have the fortitude to handle it
I can't speak for someone who knows their ancestors were slaves or were members of an Indian tribe slaughtered by army troops or settlers. I see those statues as honoring people and in some cases the honor is not deserved. Robert E Lee was the commanding general of an army dedicated to dividing and destroying our nation. I see no reason to honor him or other Generals of that army, any more than we should have statues honoring Lord Cornwallis or Benedict Arnold...They too are part of where we came from.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
I can't speak for someone who knows their ancestors were slaves or were members of an Indian tribe slaughtered by army troops or settlers. I see those statues as honoring people and in some cases the honor is not deserved. Robert E Lee was the commanding general of an army dedicated to dividing and destroying our nation. I see no reason to honor him or other Generals of that army, any more than we should have statues honoring Lord Cornwallis or Benedict Arnold...They too are part of where we came from.
Understood. But where does it end. Indians slaughtered one another too...the Sioux forced westward. Do we erase Iroquois history?

There's no end to what may discomfort people
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Understood. But where does it end. Indians slaughtered one another too...the Sioux forced westward. Do we erase Iroquois history?

There's no end to what may discomfort people
1. Taking down statues of Col. Chivington (sand creek massacre) or of Nathan Bedford Forrest is hardly erasing history. Have the Iroquois put up statues to any of their enemies?

2. As I said...we typically do not erect statues to those who we regard as enemies of the nation. They are a matter of honor and some people do not deserve the honor. If someone wants to put a statue of General Forrest on their own property...go for it...
On public land? No.
 

Dawg

President
Supporting Member
I can't speak for someone who knows their ancestors were slaves or were members of an Indian tribe slaughtered by army troops or settlers. I see those statues as honoring people and in some cases the honor is not deserved. Robert E Lee was the commanding general of an army dedicated to dividing and destroying our nation. I see no reason to honor him or other Generals of that army, any more than we should have statues honoring Lord Cornwallis or Benedict Arnold...They too are part of where we came from.
Libs snowflakes tore down Gen. Grant's statue


Libs support anarchy

:)
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
So if you know who those people were then provide a link so we can actually find out who they represent and why they'd attack Grant's statue. Are you sure they weren't right wingers retaliating for losing Lee's statue?

Your link doesn't work...this one does.

 

EatTheRich

President
Now there is a shocking bit of news...but those people, mostly men, did risk all to found the country. If they'd lost the war they certainly would have "hanged together". Some people may think the world would be better off if there had been no revolutionary war. No independent USA. I think the good about this country is far better than the bad.

So some of those founders owned slaves...does that mean we should not honor their contribution to building a nation? I say no. Racism was pretty common for hundreds of years. Should we judge Lincoln by today's standards? Seems kind of dumb to me...who knows what values may be accepted in a hundred years that many of us would be condemned by long after we are gone? Did Lincoln think highly of blacks? Doesn't seem so. Did his official acts benefit blacks in America?
In fact, isn't it true that his official policies benefited African Americans for all time, changing the course of our country forever? Didn't he actually lose his life because of that?

To fail to balance their contributions with what anyone sees as their failures is simply short sighted. If we want to go down that road then wouldn't we also have to take down Martin Luther King statues? He wasn't perfect either.
Agreed. The leaders of both American revolutions, for all their flaws, played a progressive role in humanity’s long story of incremental liberation.
 

JuliefromOhio

President
Supporting Member
Our Founders were enlightened men. They based our Constitution on the tenet that

ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL.

We strive to meet that ideal.
 
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