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Arkady

President
No, I am reading the material exactly how they intend it. I have a minor in marketing. That is propaganda pure and simple.
And I have a major in English -- the language in which it's written. But comparing academic credentials won't resolve this, only a close reading will. Which words or phrases do you see as promoting sex, exactly?
 

connieb

Senator
And I have a major in English -- the language in which it's written. But comparing academic credentials won't resolve this, only a close reading will. Which words or phrases do you see as promoting sex, exactly?
It is the entire connotation. The whole work is designed to say , hey its no big deal. It is written in a very subtly persuasive way. Its not any one word or phrase. And, in some cases, its the absence of words or phrases.
 

oicu812

"Trust, but Verify"
The timing doesn't work well for that theory. Rap didn't really take off until the 1990s. No black rapper had a number one hit until 1991, and 1996 was the first year with more than one rap song to hit number 1 in the top 100. So, other things being equal, if rap music were having a big influence on the black violent crime rate, we'd expect that rate to start rising in 1991, with the increase really taking off in the mid-to-late 1990s. That is exactly the opposite of what the data show:

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

If you see Figure 18, you'll see that homicide offending rates for blacks rose sharply throughout the Reagan/Bush years, peaked in 1991, then started to fall, including an extremely swift decline throughout the late 1990s, just as rap music was becoming the dominant pop music form.

That said, perhaps rap music really is contributing to trends in the black violent crime rate -- just the opposite way as you thought. Maybe the emotional outlet of rap music is acting as some sort of emotional salve, resulting in black violent crime rates falling much more quickly than white violent crime rates ever since rap became a dominant influence in the black community. Perhaps when blacks were listening to Michael Jackson, Prince, and Whitney Houston, they had more unresolved violent impulses, whereas the catharsis of listening to Tupac and Biggie acted as a kind of release valve.

thats 1 convoluted theory you got there..

i prefer "learned behavior" via a culture that promotes and glorifies violence, intolerance, misogyny, misandry, homophobia, and racism..

it makes so much more sense...
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
And I have a major in English -- the language in which it's written. But comparing academic credentials won't resolve this, only a close reading will. Which words or phrases do you see as promoting sex, exactly?
so the article references a sex checklist and a consent checklist... what purpose would these serve, and under whose purview is PP given license to provide same to 13 and 14 year olds?
 

Arkady

President
It is the entire connotation. The whole work is designed to say , hey its no big deal. It is written in a very subtly persuasive way. Its not any one word or phrase. And, in some cases, its the absence of words or phrases.
I don't see it at all. To me, it comes across as flatly matter of fact: here are the risks, here's how to guard against them. I suspect that what's going on is that you were raised to believe there's something wrong with premarital sex, and so anything that discusses sex in a way that doesn't first express a negative view of it is going to come away as encouragement, to you. Am I right about your upbringing? Did your parents discourage you from having premarital success? If so, consider whether that indoctrination may be coloring your view of a neutral document.
 

Mr. Friscus

Governor
Yeah. His character is sad he's stuck in Folsom while the passengers on that train get to move on with their lives. That's hardly the only example, either. He pushed the lawless character so hard that it defines an entire genre of music: outlaw country.
That's fine, but did he brag about killing police officers? In detail?

And it was complete with sexist lyrics, too. For example, in Ladies Love Outlaws he says that ladies love outlaws like babies love stray dogs, while singing about a string of women who can't help falling for these shady fellows.
Does he call them "b*tches" and "hoes"? Does he degrade them and say "F*ck this b*tches"?

Unfortunately, what Cash describes is true in some circumstances. However, he merely described it. Jay Z made sure we were to know that indeed these "b*tches" aren't worth "sh*t", and he can f*ck any of them any time he wants.

The difference is so stark, i'm amazed you're still putting up a fight.

There are certainly differences. One, for example, expresses an outlaw outlook that white folks are comfortable with, while the other expresses an outlaw outlook that black folks are comfortable with.
So you take the racial tactic of trying to draw equality. No, sadly, this isn't even close to some racial perspective at work. Since you're so into Johnny Cash, go ahead and prove me wrong here. I challenge you to produce some lyrics by Cash that convey the following quite directly:

- Women ARE worthless, with degrading slurs and all.
- Motivational encouragement that killing people is the "good" thing, as in your status.
- Constant vulgar attacks on a race of people.

We'll just start there.

Still, there's no accounting for taste, and if that's the music the president digs, I'm not going to get any more bent out of shape about it than I did about Reagan's interest in Johnny Cash and Merle Haggard.
You can choose not to, but from the lyrics from the horse's mouth, it's insane that Obama isn't questioned about these things.

Are you suggesting there is no such thing as a meaning of words, just simply differing perspectives? I mean, what Jay Z has rapped about MEANS something, regardless of what party, race, gender, sexual orientation you are. Those words are out there and have English meaning.
 

Arkady

President
so the article references a sex checklist and a consent checklist... what purpose would these serve, and under whose purview is PP given license to provide same to 13 and 14 year olds?
I certainly would want a 13 or 14 year old asking him or herself very carefully about whether he or she is ready for sex, before having sex. Wouldn't you?

Here's the material:

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/teens/sex/am-i-ready

It encourages kids to talk to someone they trust, like a friend, parent, or healthcare provider, and to consider:

  • your personal values
  • your school and career goals
  • the emotional and physical risks you're willing to take
  • if it's something you really want to do, or something your partner is pressuring you to do
  • what sort of relationship you want to have with the person you have sex with (and how well that matches the relationship they want with you)
  • whether family and friends will support your decision (and how important that is to you)
  • your feelings about who you are and what you're comfortable doing
  • whether you want to be in a committed relationship before you have sex

It goes on to discourage having sex for the wrong reasons:

Don’t let what you think your friends are doing affect such an important decision. You’re not ready if the reason you want to have sex sounds anything like:

  • I’m the only “virgin” in my group of friends.
  • I want to “get it over with.”
  • My boyfriend or girlfriend will break up with me if I don’t have sex.
  • Having sex will make me popular.
  • I’ll feel older if I have sex.

This all strikes me as a good set of messages to deliver to people deciding whether to have sex, and it seems absolutely appropriate for 13 or 14 year olds. Delay much beyond that and you'll have missed your window, and more of the kids will have had sex for the wrong reasons or without taking good steps to protect themselves.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
I certainly would want a 13 or 14 year old asking him or herself very carefully about whether he or she is ready for sex, before having sex. Wouldn't you?

Here's the material:

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/teens/sex/am-i-ready

It encourages kids to talk to someone they trust, like a friend, parent, or healthcare provider, and to consider:

  • your personal values
  • your school and career goals
  • the emotional and physical risks you're willing to take
  • if it's something you really want to do, or something your partner is pressuring you to do
  • what sort of relationship you want to have with the person you have sex with (and how well that matches the relationship they want with you)
  • whether family and friends will support your decision (and how important that is to you)
  • your feelings about who you are and what you're comfortable doing
  • whether you want to be in a committed relationship before you have sex
It goes on to discourage having sex for the wrong reasons:

Don’t let what you think your friends are doing affect such an important decision. You’re not ready if the reason you want to have sex sounds anything like:

  • I’m the only “virgin” in my group of friends.
  • I want to “get it over with.”
  • My boyfriend or girlfriend will break up with me if I don’t have sex.
  • Having sex will make me popular.
  • I’ll feel older if I have sex.

This all strikes me as a good set of messages to deliver to people deciding whether to have sex, and it seems absolutely appropriate for 13 or 14 year olds. Delay much beyond that and you'll have missed your window, and more of the kids will have had sex for the wrong reasons or without taking good steps to protect themselves.

under whose purview is that meant to take place? I certainly dont think PP needs to play the role of intermediary. further, what does the Am i Ready reference have to do with that was provided in the referenced article.?
 

Arkady

President
That's fine, but did he brag about killing police officers? In detail?
Which one? Jay-Z or Johnny Cash? I don't know the answer in either case.

Jay Z made sure we were to know that indeed these "b*tches" aren't worth "sh*t"
I'm not a big fan of rap music, so I only know his top ten songs, or so. Which song, exactly, is the one where he says b*tches aren't worth sh*t? It would help if we discussed specifics.
 

Mr. Friscus

Governor
I'm not a big fan of rap music, so I only know his top ten songs, or so. Which song, exactly, is the one where he says b*tches aren't worth sh*t? It would help if we discussed specifics.
So why were you in this conversation if you didn't know much of anything about one of the two individuals we were comparing again?

Honestly Ark, this equalizer character makes you look foolish.
 

connieb

Senator
I don't see it at all. To me, it comes across as flatly matter of fact: here are the risks, here's how to guard against them. I suspect that what's going on is that you were raised to believe there's something wrong with premarital sex, and so anything that discusses sex in a way that doesn't first express a negative view of it is going to come away as encouragement, to you. Am I right about your upbringing? Did your parents discourage you from having premarital success? If so, consider whether that indoctrination may be coloring your view of a neutral document.
If it was truly neutral then my upbringing would have nothing to do with how it was being read. The problem is, it is not truly neutral. Perhaps your bias in favor of premarital sex is coloring your view of the document.
 

Barbella

Senator
I certainly would want a 13 or 14 year old asking him or herself very carefully about whether he or she is ready for sex, before having sex. Wouldn't you?

Here's the material:

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/teens/sex/am-i-ready

It encourages kids to talk to someone they trust, like a friend, parent, or healthcare provider, and to consider:

  • your personal values
  • your school and career goals
  • the emotional and physical risks you're willing to take
  • if it's something you really want to do, or something your partner is pressuring you to do
  • what sort of relationship you want to have with the person you have sex with (and how well that matches the relationship they want with you)
  • whether family and friends will support your decision (and how important that is to you)
  • your feelings about who you are and what you're comfortable doing
  • whether you want to be in a committed relationship before you have sex
These questions are something everyone should ask themselves before engaging in sex. However, I fail to see what sort of "committed relationship" a thirteen-year-old is planning on having... marriage? Also, I'm questioning why some kids "felt pressured" to have sex, and "uncomfortable" with the whole thing because it taught them the direct opposite of what their parents (you know, the ones who are raising them) taught them?
 

Arkady

President
under whose purview is that meant to take place? I certainly dont think PP needs to play the role of intermediary. further, what does the Am i Ready reference have to do with that was provided in the referenced article.?
I'd like it to be handled by a centrally administered Department of Education program, but my understanding is that neo-confederate types get uncomfortable with such treading on states rights. So, I'd also be fine with the material coming out of the state education departments. But, I understand why a district might look to save money by leveraging pre-existing materials from a well-regarded nonprofit liek Planned Parenthood. That cuts the taxpayers a break while still providing the valuable material.

As for the Am I Ready reference, that's what I found at Planned Parenthood that corresponded to a checklist, based on the article I read whining about the checklist:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/09/parents-angry-after-school-tells-13-year-olds-can-have-sex-choose-gender/

...they are also fuming over the methods and materials being used, including a checklist that asks students if they are “ready for sex”​

I Googled "Planned Parenthood" "ready for sex" and it was the number one result. Were you thinking of some other material?
 

Barbella

Senator
Which one? Jay-Z or Johnny Cash? I don't know the answer in either case.



I'm not a big fan of rap music, so I only know his top ten songs, or so. Which song, exactly, is the one where he says b*tches aren't worth sh*t? It would help if we discussed specifics.
Try this one:

Uh, uh, uh, uh, it's big pimpin' baby
It's big pimpin', spendin' G's
Feel me, uh huh uh, uh huh
Ge-ge-geyeah, geyeah
Ge-ge-geyeah, geyeah

You know I thug 'em, [Unwelcome language removed] 'em, love 'em, leave 'em
'Cause I don't fuckin' need 'em
Take 'em out the hood, keep 'em lookin good
But I don't fuckin' feed 'em

First time they fuss I'm breezin'
Talki'n 'bout, what's the reasons?
I'm a pimp in every sense of the word, bitch
Better trust than believe 'em

In the cut where I keep 'em
Till I need a nut, till I need to beat the guts
Then it's, beep beep and I'm pickin' 'em up
Let 'em play with the dick in the truck

Many chicks wanna put Jigga fist in cuffs
Divorce him and split his bucks
Just because you got good head, I'ma break bread
So you can be livin' it up

Shit I parts with nothin', y'all be frontin'
Me give my heart to a woman
Not for nothin', never happen
I'll be forever mackin'

Heart cold as assassins, I got no passion
I got no patience and I hate waitin'
Hoe get yo' ass in and let's R I I I I I I D E
Check 'em out now

R I I I I I I D E, yeah
And let's R I I I I I I D E
Check 'em out now
R I I I I I I D E, yeah

We doin', big pimpin', we spendin' G's
Check 'em out now, big pimpin', on B L A D's
We doin' big pimpin' up in NYC
It's just that Jigga Man, Pimp C and B U N B

Yo yo yo, big pimpin', spendin' G's
We doin', big pimpin', on B L A D's
We doin'. big pimpin' up in NYC
It's just that Jigga Man, Pimp C and B U N B

Nigga it's the big Southern rap impresario
Comin' straight up out the black barrio
Makes a mill' up off a sorry hoe
Then sit back and peep my scenario

Oops, my bad, that's my scenario
No I can't [Unwelcome language removed] a scary hoe
Now every time, every place, everywhere we go
Hoes start pointin', they say, there he go

Now these motherfuckers know we carry mo' heat than a little bit
We don't pull it out over little shit
And if you catch a lick when I spit, then it won't be a little hit
Go read a book you illiterate son of a bitch and step up yo' vocab

Don't be surprised if yo' hoe stab out with me
And you see us comin' down on yo' slab
Livin' ghetto fabulous, so mad, you just can't take it
But nigga if you hatin' I

Then you wait while I get yo' bitch butt naked, just break it
You gotta pay like you weigh wet wit two pairs of clothes on
Now get yo' ass to the back as I'm flyin' to the track
Timbaland let me spit my pro's on

Pump it up in the prozone
That's the track that we breakin' these hoes on
Ain't the track that we flow's on
But when shit get hot, then the Glock start poppin' like ozone

We keep hoes crunk like Trigger man
Fo' real it don't get no bigger man
Don't trip, let's flip, gettin' throwed on the flip
Gettin' blowed with the motherfuckin' Jigga Man, fool

We be big pimpin', spendin' G's
We be big pimpin', on B L A D's
We be big pimpin' down in P A T
It's just that Jigga Man, Pimp C and B U N B

'Cause we be big pimpin', spendin' G's
And we be big pimpin', on B L A D's
'Cause we be big pimpin' in P A T
It's just that Jigga Man, Pimp C and B U N B nigga

Uh, smokin' out, throwin' up, keepin' lean up in my cup
All my car got leather and wood, in my hood we call it buck
Everybody wanna ball, holla at broads at the mall
If he up, watch him fall, nigga I can't [Unwelcome language removed] witch'all

If I wasn't rappin' baby, I would still be ridin' Mercedes
Chromin' shinin' sippin' daily, no rest until whitey pay me
Uh, now what y'all know bout them Texas boys
Comin' down in candied toys, smokin' weed and talkin' noise

We be big pimpin', spendin' G's
We be big pimpin', on B L A D's
We be big pimpin' down in P A T
It's just that Jigga Man, Pimp C and B U N B

'Cause we be big pimpin', spendin' G's
And we be big pimpin', on B L A D's
'Cause we be big pimpin' in P A T
It's just that Jigga Man, Pimp C and B U N B nigga


Read more: Jay-Z - Big Pimpin' Lyrics | MetroLyrics
 

Arkady

President
If it was truly neutral then my upbringing would have nothing to do with how it was being read. The problem is, it is not truly neutral. Perhaps your bias in favor of premarital sex is coloring your view of the document.
Your upbringing would make a huge difference in how you regard neutral material. If I was raised Muslim, then a neutral piece laying out the dietary facts about pork might strike me as encouraging the eating of pork, since it failed to reflect my own perception that it's an unclean food forbidden by God himself.
 

Arkady

President
These questions are something everyone should ask themselves before engaging in sex. However, I fail to see what sort of "committed relationship" a thirteen-year-old is planning on having... marriage? Also, I'm questioning why some kids "felt pressured" to have sex, and "uncomfortable" with the whole thing because it taught them the direct opposite of what their parents (you know, the ones who are raising them) taught them?
You think that it taught the direct opposite of what their parents taught them? Think that through. Take another look at what is in the material and then honestly imagine what the direct opposite would be:

Don’t let what you think your friends are doing affect such an important decision. You’re not ready if the reason you want to have sex sounds anything like:

  • I’m the only “virgin” in my group of friends.
  • I want to “get it over with.”
  • My boyfriend or girlfriend will break up with me if I don’t have sex.
  • Having sex will make me popular.
  • I’ll feel older if I have sex.
Now, the direct opposite:

You should let what you think your friends are doing affect such an important decision. You’re ready if the reason you want to have sex sounds anything like:I’m the only “virgin” in my group of friends.
  • I want to “get it over with.”
  • My boyfriend or girlfriend will break up with me if I don’t have sex.
  • Having sex will make me popular.
  • I’ll feel older if I have sex.
It's possible that parents are teaching the direct opposite of what Planned Parenthood materials provide, but that seems pretty unlikely to me. How about you?
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
I'd like it to be handled by a centrally administered Department of Education program, but my understanding is that neo-confederate types get uncomfortable with such treading on states rights. So, I'd also be fine with the material coming out of the state education departments. But, I understand why a district might look to save money by leveraging pre-existing materials from a well-regarded nonprofit liek Planned Parenthood. That cuts the taxpayers a break while still providing the valuable material.

As for the Am I Ready reference, that's what I found at Planned Parenthood that corresponded to a checklist, based on the article I read whining about the checklist:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/09/parents-angry-after-school-tells-13-year-olds-can-have-sex-choose-gender/

...they are also fuming over the methods and materials being used, including a checklist that asks students if they are “ready for sex”​

I Googled "Planned Parenthood" "ready for sex" and it was the number one result. Were you thinking of some other material?

whoever above provided a link to i think a fox article within which were three reference materials - gender identification, sex checklist, consent checklist.

i think these discussions are no one business but the parents, at the age in question.

what business PP has, or the school has usurping that dialogue is my question and concern
 

connieb

Senator
Your upbringing would make a huge difference in how you regard neutral material. If I was raised Muslim, then a neutral piece laying out the dietary facts about pork might strike me as encouraging the eating of pork, since it failed to reflect my own perception that it's an unclean food forbidden by God himself.
Yeah um.. neutral is just that neutral.
 

Arkady

President
Try this one:

Uh, uh, uh, uh, it's big pimpin' baby
It's big pimpin', spendin' G's
Feel me, uh huh uh, uh huh
Ge-ge-geyeah, geyeah
Ge-ge-geyeah, geyeah

You know I thug 'em, [Unwelcome language removed] 'em, love 'em, leave 'em
'Cause I don't fuckin' need 'em
Take 'em out the hood, keep 'em lookin good
But I don't fuckin' feed 'em

First time they fuss I'm breezin'
Talki'n 'bout, what's the reasons?
I'm a pimp in every sense of the word, bitch
Better trust than believe 'em

In the cut where I keep 'em
Till I need a nut, till I need to beat the guts
Then it's, beep beep and I'm pickin' 'em up
Let 'em play with the dick in the truck

Many chicks wanna put Jigga fist in cuffs
Divorce him and split his bucks
Just because you got good head, I'ma break bread
So you can be livin' it up

Shit I parts with nothin', y'all be frontin'
Me give my heart to a woman
Not for nothin', never happen
I'll be forever mackin'

Heart cold as assassins, I got no passion
I got no patience and I hate waitin'
Hoe get yo' ass in and let's R I I I I I I D E
Check 'em out now

R I I I I I I D E, yeah
And let's R I I I I I I D E
Check 'em out now
R I I I I I I D E, yeah

We doin', big pimpin', we spendin' G's
Check 'em out now, big pimpin', on B L A D's
We doin' big pimpin' up in NYC
It's just that Jigga Man, Pimp C and B U N B

Yo yo yo, big pimpin', spendin' G's
We doin', big pimpin', on B L A D's
We doin'. big pimpin' up in NYC
It's just that Jigga Man, Pimp C and B U N B

Nigga it's the big Southern rap impresario
Comin' straight up out the black barrio
Makes a mill' up off a sorry hoe
Then sit back and peep my scenario

Oops, my bad, that's my scenario
No I can't [Unwelcome language removed] a scary hoe
Now every time, every place, everywhere we go
Hoes start pointin', they say, there he go

Now these motherfuckers know we carry mo' heat than a little bit
We don't pull it out over little shit
And if you catch a lick when I spit, then it won't be a little hit
Go read a book you illiterate son of a bitch and step up yo' vocab

Don't be surprised if yo' hoe stab out with me
And you see us comin' down on yo' slab
Livin' ghetto fabulous, so mad, you just can't take it
But nigga if you hatin' I

Then you wait while I get yo' bitch butt naked, just break it
You gotta pay like you weigh wet wit two pairs of clothes on
Now get yo' ass to the back as I'm flyin' to the track
Timbaland let me spit my pro's on

Pump it up in the prozone
That's the track that we breakin' these hoes on
Ain't the track that we flow's on
But when shit get hot, then the Glock start poppin' like ozone

We keep hoes crunk like Trigger man
Fo' real it don't get no bigger man
Don't trip, let's flip, gettin' throwed on the flip
Gettin' blowed with the motherfuckin' Jigga Man, fool

We be big pimpin', spendin' G's
We be big pimpin', on B L A D's
We be big pimpin' down in P A T
It's just that Jigga Man, Pimp C and B U N B

'Cause we be big pimpin', spendin' G's
And we be big pimpin', on B L A D's
'Cause we be big pimpin' in P A T
It's just that Jigga Man, Pimp C and B U N B nigga

Uh, smokin' out, throwin' up, keepin' lean up in my cup
All my car got leather and wood, in my hood we call it buck
Everybody wanna ball, holla at broads at the mall
If he up, watch him fall, nigga I can't [Unwelcome language removed] witch'all

If I wasn't rappin' baby, I would still be ridin' Mercedes
Chromin' shinin' sippin' daily, no rest until whitey pay me
Uh, now what y'all know bout them Texas boys
Comin' down in candied toys, smokin' weed and talkin' noise

We be big pimpin', spendin' G's
We be big pimpin', on B L A D's
We be big pimpin' down in P A T
It's just that Jigga Man, Pimp C and B U N B

'Cause we be big pimpin', spendin' G's
And we be big pimpin', on B L A D's
'Cause we be big pimpin' in P A T
It's just that Jigga Man, Pimp C and B U N B nigga


Read more: Jay-Z - Big Pimpin' Lyrics | MetroLyrics
Is it your view that he's encouraging that attitude or that he's speaking through a character, with an intent to critique the character? It's a critical distinction. For example, do we think that Randy Newman actually believes the United States should nuke every other country (other than Australia)? He has a song calling for that exactly.

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/randynewman/politicalscience.html

Similarly, did the Beatles think it was right to kill a woman who doesn't want to be with you, or were they speaking through and critiquing a character:

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/beatles/runforyourlife.html

Did the Barenaked Ladies want to glorify or criticize stalking when they spoke through the character of a stalker?

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/barenakedladies/theoldapartment.html

Same with the Police?

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/police/everybreathyoutake.html

Is Elvis Costello a psychotic killer?

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/elviscostello/psycho.html

Does Pink Floyd want Jews, black people, pop smokers, queers, etc., to be shot?

http://www.pink-floyd-lyrics.com/html/in-the-flesh-2-wall-lyrics.html
 
Last edited:

Arkady

President
whoever above provided a link to i think a fox article within which were three reference materials - gender identification, sex checklist, consent checklist.

i think these discussions are no one business but the parents, at the age in question.

what business PP has, or the school has usurping that dialogue is my question and concern
I think sex ed is the proper business of the nation. We, as a people, have to deal with the unwanted pregnancies and STDs that result from parents who neglect their responsibility to provide good quality information to their children about sex. There's a reason the Bible Belt is a hotbed for teen pregnancy, while liberal New England --with less of an evangelical virginity cult-- has much lower teen pregnancy rates. Education matters, and the lack of it ends up costing all of us.
 
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