Stupid will get you killed

[Bernard_Fokke]

It's a pity but what could the officer done differently given the initial report?


Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police
12-year-old wielding realistic toy at playground dies from wounds
CLEVELAND — A 12-year-old boy shot by police after grabbing what turned out to be a replica gun died from his wounds on Sunday, one day after officers responded to a 911 call about someone waving what the caller described as a “probably fake” gun at a playground.

Deputy Chief Ed Tomba said one officer fired twice after the boy pulled the fake weapon — which was lacking the orange safety indicator usually found on the muzzle — from his waistband but had not pointed it at police. The boy did not make any verbal threats, but grabbed the replica handgun after being told to raise his hands, Deputy Chief Tomba said.


Read more at http://www.toledoblade.com/State/2014/11/24/Cleveland-boy-with-fake-pistol-killed-by-police.html#bzZc5i3Wi3mqBMMc.99

 

[Dino]

It's a pity but what could the officer done differently given the initial report?


Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police
12-year-old wielding realistic toy at playground dies from wounds
CLEVELAND — A 12-year-old boy shot by police after grabbing what turned out to be a replica gun died from his wounds on Sunday, one day after officers responded to a 911 call about someone waving what the caller described as a “probably fake” gun at a playground.

Deputy Chief Ed Tomba said one officer fired twice after the boy pulled the fake weapon — which was lacking the orange safety indicator usually found on the muzzle — from his waistband but had not pointed it at police. The boy did not make any verbal threats, but grabbed the replica handgun after being told to raise his hands, Deputy Chief Tomba said.


Read more at http://www.toledoblade.com/State/2014/11/24/Cleveland-boy-with-fake-pistol-killed-by-police.html#bzZc5i3Wi3mqBMMc.99

I think we know by now what is required:
1. the training and firearms certifications of the officer involved
2. the color of the officer involved
3. all eyewitness testimony from the area: dregs, pushers, hos, drug dealers preferred
4. any videotape evidence
5. the address and photo of the officer involved
6. megaphones, torches, pitchforks, and hired protest groups

 

[Bernard_Fokke]

One would think that responsible parents would understand that in todays environment that a kid carrying a fake pistol is highly at risk in public.

 

[as seen on tv]

he was shot because he drew on officers. the only reason this 12 year old removed the orange "fake gun" tip from his weapon was so he could attempt to conduct robberies in that park. if he'd simply been playing "cops and robbers" wtih a toy weapon, instead of threatening and trying to rob people, he'd still be alive.

let's move on to the "parental supversion" and "prior arrests" phase of the public examination now. Was this kid ever arrested previously for carjacking, robbery or assault? Are either of his parents ex-felons with weapons and/or narcotics rap sheets? If so, why was this troubled kid still be raised by his parents.

Call the police and have DCP (department of child protective services) arrested, please.

 

[Bernard_Fokke]

All unknowns at this time ASOTV, just seems such a waste.

 

[Arkady]

It's a pity but what could the officer done differently given the initial report?


Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police
12-year-old wielding realistic toy at playground dies from wounds
CLEVELAND — A 12-year-old boy shot by police after grabbing what turned out to be a replica gun died from his wounds on Sunday, one day after officers responded to a 911 call about someone waving what the caller described as a “probably fake” gun at a playground.

Deputy Chief Ed Tomba said one officer fired twice after the boy pulled the fake weapon — which was lacking the orange safety indicator usually found on the muzzle — from his waistband but had not pointed it at police. The boy did not make any verbal threats, but grabbed the replica handgun after being told to raise his hands, Deputy Chief Tomba said.


Read more at http://www.toledoblade.com/State/2014/11/24/Cleveland-boy-with-fake-pistol-killed-by-police.html#bzZc5i3Wi3mqBMMc.99

What he could have done differently is not to shoot. It would, of course, take some courage to run the risk of getting shot, rather than "erring on the side of caution" by executing a kid just in case the gun was real. But that's exactly the kind of courage we should expect from a police officer.

I'm a bit on edge about this, since the child of an acquaintance just got killed by a cowardly cop with an itchy trigger finger:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/22/nyregion/new-york-police-officer-fatally-shoots-brooklyn-man.html

 

[Arkady]

One would think that responsible parents would understand that in todays environment that a kid carrying a fake pistol is highly at risk in public.

Why would that be? When I was a kid, we played with toy guns frequently in public -- and these were toys made to look quite realistic, often with caps to create the sound of a gun, not the deliberately phony looking toy guns you see today. And when I was a kid, pretty much all the young boys played with such guns. What has changed in "today's environment"? It's certainly not that society has grown more violent. Quite the opposite. I played with guns during the late Carter years and the Reagan years, which were some of the most violent in our nation's history. The murder rate hit its all time high in 1980, and the violent crime rate hit its all time high in 1991. Since those highs, Murder is down 56% and violent crime is down 51%. In other words, the violence problem in this nation was over twice as bad back when I was a kid, but nobody was suggesting that a kid carrying a toy gun should be regarded as highly at risk.

I'm not sure what's going on here. I'd like to see better stats about police shootings (unfortunately, those don't get collected). It seems possible that what has changed isn't that we're more violent, as a society (as mentioned, we're a lot less violent), but rather than our police forces have become more trigger happy. There seems to be a culture now of regarding anything -- a kid with a toy, a pedestrian who talks back, a dark stairwell-- as a mortal threat that calls for shooting first and asking questions later.

And, yes, I think racism is playing a part here. A large percentage of these events involve black male victims. I think there's a cultural tendency to think of black males as violent threats, at least subconsciously, even though the majority of black males have not been involved in any violent crime. If it was a little twelve-year-old blonde girl with the toy gun, would the cop have pulled the trigger? I strongly suspect not, even though a gun would be every bit as dangerous in her hands. I think seeing a black male with a gun (or even just a black male who MIGHT have a gun) triggers a deep, irrational fear in a lot of cops.

 

[Caroljo]

The kid grabbed the toy gun AFTER he was told to raise his hands. My God...how can anyone say the cop was wrong for what he did? The way things are today I wouldn't be taking any chances either.
The kid had to know what he was doing...how often have we heard of these things happening lately? If not...why didn't his parents tell him what could happen by playing with a toy gun where people can observe you? Was he using that gun for something illegal? Maybe. Someone was concerned enough that they called the police on him.

 

[fairsheet]

It's a pity but what could the officer done differently given the initial report?


Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police
12-year-old wielding realistic toy at playground dies from wounds
CLEVELAND — A 12-year-old boy shot by police after grabbing what turned out to be a replica gun died from his wounds on Sunday, one day after officers responded to a 911 call about someone waving what the caller described as a “probably fake” gun at a playground.

Deputy Chief Ed Tomba said one officer fired twice after the boy pulled the fake weapon — which was lacking the orange safety indicator usually found on the muzzle — from his waistband but had not pointed it at police. The boy did not make any verbal threats, but grabbed the replica handgun after being told to raise his hands, Deputy Chief Tomba said.


Read more at http://www.toledoblade.com/State/2014/11/24/Cleveland-boy-with-fake-pistol-killed-by-police.html#bzZc5i3Wi3mqBMMc.99

At a certain age - I think it was around 5 or 6, my mother no longer allowed us to have toy guns. I never asked her about that one. She was raised in a bird-hunting family though. What I do know though, is that my son-in-law is a hunter and a gun enthusiast, yet his wife (my stepdaughter) refuses to let my grandchildren have toy guns or violent video games. I'm assuming she wouldn't stand in the way of the boys' learning to handle real guns, but I don't know? The funny thing is that the oldest one (14) has an especial soft spot for animals, so I don't see him wanting to hunt in any case!

 

[fairsheet]

What he could have done differently is not to shoot. It would, of course, take some courage to run the risk of getting shot, rather than "erring on the side of caution" by executing a kid just in case the gun was real. But that's exactly the kind of courage we should expect from a police officer.

I'm a bit on edge about this, since the child of an acquaintance just got killed by a cowardly cop with an itchy trigger finger:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/22/nyregion/new-york-police-officer-fatally-shoots-brooklyn-man.html

I think it's off-the-charts unreasonable to ask a cop to risk being shot, on the chance that someone is wielding a toy gun. Someone's at fault for the kid's ignorance, but it's not the cop.

 

[resident_evil]

The kid grabbed the toy gun AFTER he was told to raise his hands. My God...how can anyone say the cop was wrong for what he did? The way things are today I wouldn't be taking any chances either.
The kid had to know what he was doing...how often have we heard of these things happening lately? If not...why didn't his parents tell him what could happen by playing with a toy gun where people can observe you? Was he using that gun for something illegal? Maybe. Someone was concerned enough that they called the police on him.

Maybe the kid thought the cop was playing cops and robbers with him. The kid didn't necessarily know he was in danger. He probably thought the cop knew he had a toy.

I'm not interested in a world where parents have to tell kids how to play with toy guns because a cop might shoot them. It is far easier to tell a cop not to shoot kids (or dogs) before asking questions and submitting to some risk. They literally get paid hazard pay just for that purpose.

 

[resident_evil]

I think it's off-the-charts unreasonable to ask a cop to risk being shot, on the chance that someone is wielding a toy gun. Someone's at fault for the kid's ignorance, but it's not the cop.

I blame the caller to 911 and the cops.

 

[Arkady]

I think it's off-the-charts unreasonable to ask a cop to risk being shot, on the chance that someone is wielding a toy gun. Someone's at fault for the kid's ignorance, but it's not the cop.

The cop is at fault, but he's not alone. People like you are at fault too -- reflexive authoritarians who will apologize for agents of the state erring on the side of killing your fellow Americans. It is that kind of toadying attitude that helps to create the culture in which this kind of thing happens again and again.

We're talking about a CHILD carrying a toy -- a child who didn't aim it at the police or make any threatening statements. We're talking about a child who is dead now, when he'd committed no crime. All he did is play with a fake gun -- something I did at the same age, and that every single one of my male friends at that age also did.

 

[Caroljo]

Maybe the kid thought the cop was playing cops and robbers with him. The kid didn't necessarily know he was in danger. He probably thought the cop knew he had a toy.

I'm not interested in a world where parents have to tell kids how to play with toy guns because a cop might shoot them. It is far easier to tell a cop not to shoot kids (or dogs) before asking questions and submitting to some risk. They literally get paid hazard pay just for that purpose.

Ya, maybe....but I don't believe it. Today's 12 yr olds, especially the ones that live most of the time on the streets hanging out with their friends, are much older mentally than I remember being at 12. They aren't stupid, they hear the stories....I don't believe this kid didn't know what he was doing. I don't like that our world has come to this....but today, if I had young children, they would know what the risks are! I agree that many cops have gotten too trigger happy....but then I'm not a cop and I don't know the pressure they're under.

 

[fairsheet]

I blame the caller to 911 and the cops.

I find it disingenuous to suggest that anyone - especially the cop - WANTED to kill the kid. It's similar to a suicide-by-cop incident in that contrary to what many may shout, the cop is due for some considerable sympathy for his being left with no other choice and now he's got to live with the consequences.

What people don't seem to realize is the cops don't have the option of assuming that the gun was a toy. Their only option is to assume that it's real. What some are shouting for here than, is that cops give a wide berth to ALL kids with guns - toy or real.

 

[Caroljo]

The cop is at fault, but he's not alone. People like you are at fault too -- reflexive authoritarians who will apologize for agents of the state erring on the side of killing your fellow Americans. It is that kind of toadying attitude that helps to create the culture in which this kind of thing happens again and again.

We're talking about a CHILD carrying a toy -- a child who didn't aim it at the police or make any threatening statements. We're talking about a child who is dead now, when he'd committed no crime. All he did is play with a fake gun -- something I did at the same age, and that every single one of my male friends at that age also did.

He pulled the gun out AFTER the cop told him to put his hands up. That CHILD made a stupid move. I'm sorry it happened, it sucks that someone child was taken from them, but I will not put the entire blame on the cop. Someone called 911 because they were concerned...it's not like the cop just happen to come across the kid...he was called there!

 

[resident_evil]

Ya, maybe....but I don't believe it. Today's 12 yr olds, especially the ones that live most of the time on the streets hanging out with their friends, are much older mentally than I remember being at 12. They aren't stupid, they hear the stories....I don't believe this kid didn't know what he was doing. I don't like that our world has come to this....but today, if I had young children, they would know what the risks are! I agree that many cops have gotten too trigger happy....but then I'm not a cop and I don't know the pressure they're under.

So he knew what he was doing and that it was very likely to get him killed? And did it anyways!? Yeah, right.

 

[fairsheet]

The cop is at fault, but he's not alone. People like you are at fault too -- reflexive authoritarians who will apologize for agents of the state erring on the side of killing your fellow Americans. It is that kind of toadying attitude that helps to create the culture in which this kind of thing happens again and again.

We're talking about a CHILD carrying a toy -- a child who didn't aim it at the police or make any threatening statements. We're talking about a child who is dead now, when he'd committed no crime. All he did is play with a fake gun -- something I did at the same age, and that every single one of my male friends at that age also did.

You're pontificating on this one from a position of 20/20 hindsight. Alas these days, it seems like most all of us "reserve the right" to do exactly that. It's too bad.

 

[resident_evil]

What people don't seem to realize is the cops don't have the option of assuming that the gun was a toy. Their only option is to assume that it's real. What some are shouting for here than, is that cops give a wide berth to ALL kids with guns - toy or real.

Yes, they do have that option. They are paid to take that option.

You're insidiously working a gun grab angle. I won't hear it.

 

[Arkady]

The kid grabbed the toy gun AFTER he was told to raise his hands.

We're talking about a child, terrified by an armed adult barking an order at him. Probably his first instinct was to grab the gun and throw it to the ground.... not a good instinct, but a completely understandable one. What's less understandable is a cop who, confronted with a kid who is holding what the 911 call had described as "probably a toy" would shoot the kid, even when he'd not pointed the weapon.

I fully admit that it would take courage to keep your wits about you and not pull the trigger unless the kid looked ready to shoot. But that's the kind of courage we should demand of police.

The way things are today I wouldn't be taking any chances either.

When you say "the way things are today" do you mean "with violent crime and murder rates having dropped by over half in recent decades"?

If not...why didn't his parents tell him what could happen by playing with a toy gun where people can observe you?

I played with toy guns at the same age. My parents never gave me such instructions. I'm not aware that any of my friends' parents doing so, either. Of course, we were white and rural, not black and urban, and although we lived in a MUCH more violent era, we also lived in an era before 24/7 cable news had created a false impression that things were horrifically violent, so the cops we were likely to run into wouldn't have been expected to be as trigger happy.

Was he using that gun for something illegal? Maybe. Someone was concerned enough that they called the police on him.

Are you speculating this way because you get off on the idea of children being gunned down, and want to encourage it to happen more often? Maybe. I was concerned enough about it to suggest the possibility.