Tell me what you think of this

[resident_evil]

Another example here;

He says, "Am I suspect of criminal activity." And the LEO crumbles.

LEO: "This facility and personnel have received threats and your surveiling behavior could be precursor to an attack. Give me your ID or I will arrest you and the court will work it out."

 

[freyasman]

He says, "Am I suspect of criminal activity." And the LEO crumbles.

LEO: "This facility and personnel have received threats and your surveiling behavior could be precursor to an attack. Give me your ID or I will arrest you and the court will work it out."

The courts have ruled that filming, where legal to do so, cannot be used as a basis for a detainment, nor to ID someone.
And not just filming;

 

[resident_evil]

The courts have ruled that filming, where legal to do so, cannot be used as a basis for a detainment, nor to ID someone.
And not just filming;

You simply don't listen. The training is not about stopping the filming. It is about requiring identification for a valid articulable reason.

The first time law enforcement fails to answer to a public alarm where a mass shooting happens because of legal open carry is the day your court ruling will change. You see if many people open carried everyday then law enforcement couldn't legally (let alone logistically) stop everyone and question them about abnormal (i.e. suspicious) behavior, right? Well, as long as open carry draws attention police investigation will likely continue. And when it stops and there is a mass shooting the "right" will end.

Look at the video you shared of a Boy Scout leader walking with an AR and a bunch of kids. It was incumbent on that officer to investigate. He just needed to be able to articulate his concern better and in court he'd have prevailed.

Dude, don't piss away my right to conceal carry or open carry with pointless confrontational acts. The kind of acts that are defiant and confrontational because if we aren't reasonable and something drastic happens then state laws will change. State laws have trended more towards gun rights as of late, they don't need to be reversed.

 

[freyasman]

You simply don't listen. The training is not about stopping the filming. It is about requiring identification for a valid articulable reason.

The first time law enforcement fails to answer to a public alarm where a mass shooting happens because of legal open carry is the day your court ruling will change. You see if many people open carried everyday then law enforcement couldn't legally (let alone logistically) stop everyone and question them about abnormal (i.e. suspicious) behavior, right? Well, as long as open carry draws attention police investigation will likely continue. And when it stops and there is a mass shooting the "right" will end.

Look at the video you shared of a Boy Scout leader walking with an AR and a bunch of kids. It was incumbent on that officer to investigate. He just needed to be able to articulate his concern better and in court he'd have prevailed.

Dude, don't piss away my right to conceal carry or open carry with pointless confrontational acts. The kind of acts that are defiant and confrontational because if we aren't reasonable and something drastic happens then state laws will change. State laws have trended more towards gun rights as of late, they don't need to be reversed.

I am listening to you, you're not hearing me..... a legal act, by itself, is not a valid reason to detain and demand ID. They can ask, but we can legally refuse to provide it.

This is not a question; cops already asked the courts this question over and over.....this is the answer.

 

[resident_evil]

I am listening to you, you're not hearing me..... a legal act, by itself, is not a valid reason to detain and demand ID. They can ask, but we can legally refuse to provide it.

This is not a question; cops already asked the courts this question over and over.....this is the answer.

If I can give an "ARTICULABLE" reason why I am stopping you to ask for ID is it legal? Yes, it is.

If you're walking down the street with bottles filled with gasoline and rags stuffed down their necks can a law enforcement officer stop you and ask for ID? Yes, they can.

If you have lock picking tools and are trying to open the locks to your OWN business can law enforcement ask you for your ID? Yes, they can.

If you're walking through a public park with an open flaming torch at the height of the dry season can law enforcement stop you and ask for ID? Yes, they can.

If you fit the description of a criminal suspect from your red hair to your birkenstocks can a law enforcement stop you and ask for ID? Yes, they can.

If you walk onto a primary school campus with an AR can law enforcement stop you and ask for ID? Yes, they can.

Try and do anything untoward with DNR (Dept. of Natural Resource) law enforcement personnel and you'll see just how much intrusion you can legally incur. They can ask you to open your cooler and count your fish while you're standing on thousands of acres of public land. They can look into your freezer AT HOME to make sure you aren't poaching deer. ALL THEY NEED IS A REASONABLE ARTICULABLE REASON TO DO SO!!!

 

[freyasman]

If I can give an "ARTICULABLE" reason why I am stopping you to ask for ID is it legal? Yes, it is.

If you're walking down the street with bottles filled with gasoline and rags stuffed down their necks can a law enforcement officer stop you and ask for ID? Yes, they can.

If you have lock picking tools and are trying to open the locks to your OWN business can law enforcement ask you for your ID? Yes, they can.

If you're walking through a public park with an open flaming torch at the height of the dry season can law enforcement stop you and ask for ID? Yes, they can.

If you fit the description of a criminal suspect from your red hair to your birkenstocks can a law enforcement stop you and ask for ID? Yes, they can.

If you walk onto a primary school campus with an AR can law enforcement stop you and ask for ID? Yes, they can.

Try and do anything untoward with DNR (Dept. of Natural Resource) law enforcement personnel and you'll see just how much intrusion you can legally incur. They can ask you to open your cooler and count your fish while you're standing on thousands of acres of public land. They can look into your freezer AT HOME to make sure you aren't poaching deer. ALL THEY NEED IS A REASONABLE ARTICULABLE REASON TO DO SO!!!

Articulable reason to believe a crime is being, has been, or is about to be committed.
What crime? Filming?

Sorry, no.

 

[resident_evil]

Articulable reason to believe a crime is being, has been, or is about to be committed.
What crime? Filming?

You give me an example that a crime is about to be committed and so ID can be requested? I gave you a number of them as I see possible. You give me the same number. What do you think it takes to see a crime about to be committed?

Can I ask for ID when a person is holding a gun to the temple of a kneeling person? Is that the ONLY time you can believe a crime is about to be committed?

You do know that surveiling for the purpose of a future attack (when the attack happens) is in fact a crime? If someone is killed or property is damaged you are part of the conspiracy and subject to criminal charges.

 

[freyasman]

You give me an example that a crime is about to be committed and so ID can be requested? I gave you a number of them as I see possible. You give me the same number. What do you think it takes to see a crime about to be committed?

Can I ask for ID when a person is holding a gun to the temple of a kneeling person? Is that the ONLY time you can believe a crime is about to be committed?

You do know that surveiling for the purpose of a future attack (when the attack happens) is in fact a crime? If someone is killed or property is damaged you are part of the conspiracy and subject to criminal charges.

But the courts have already ruled on this. It's not an unanswered question. Filming, or carrying a firearm, in a place where it is legal to do so, cannot be construed by LE as a reason to detain and ID. They tried that shit, and it failed to pass the smell test, over and over again.
The fact that so many LEOs keep trying it, is a testament to their persistence in their error.

 

[resident_evil]

But the courts have already ruled on this. It's not an unanswered question. Filming, or carrying a firearm, in a place where it is legal to do so, cannot be construed by LE as a reason to detain and ID. They tried that shit, and it failed to pass the smell test, over and over again.
The fact that so many LEOs keep trying it, is a testament to their persistence in their error.

I ask again....

You give me an example that a crime is about to be committed and so ID can be requested? I gave you a number of them as I see possible. You give me the same number. What do you think it takes to see a crime about to be committed?

Can I ask for ID when a person is holding a gun to the temple of a kneeling person? Is that the ONLY time you can believe a crime is about to be committed?

 

[freyasman]

I ask again....

You give me an example that a crime is about to be committed and so ID can be requested? I gave you a number of them as I see possible. You give me the same number. What do you think it takes to see a crime about to be committed?

Can I ask for ID when a person is holding a gun to the temple of a kneeling person? Is that the ONLY time you can believe a crime is about to be committed?

Go for it; enjoy your termination of employment, loss of qualified immunity, prosecution for official oppression, and subsequent civil lawsuit. And that's if it's an auditor.... if it's someone like me, you might very well end up hurt or dead for accosting and attacking me on the street, if not then and there, then when I come looking for you a few weeks later.

 

[freyasman]

I ask again....

You give me an example that a crime is about to be committed and so ID can be requested? I gave you a number of them as I see possible. You give me the same number. What do you think it takes to see a crime about to be committed?

Can I ask for ID when a person is holding a gun to the temple of a kneeling person? Is that the ONLY time you can believe a crime is about to be committed?

I see a guy driving a truck down a street, how do I know he isn't going to jump the curb and mow down 9 people on the sidewalk? So now that I have imagined this scenario, that suddenly means I can pull this person over, demand his ID, and use force to make him comply, up to and including lethal force..... all because I saw him doing something perfectly legal?


I don't think so.

 

[resident_evil]

I see a guy driving a truck down a street, how do I know he isn't going to jump the curb and mow down 9 people on the sidewalk? So now that I have imagined this scenario, that suddenly means I can pull this person over, demand his ID, and use force to make him comply, up to and including lethal force..... all because I saw him doing something perfectly legal?


I don't think so.

Well, I'll not bother to correct your assertion because I was asking you to provide a positive scenario in which it was legal for law enforcement to ask for ID on the basis of some possible future crime. You gave me an example in which asking isn't legal.

Now give me one (preferably some) in which it is legal to ask.

 

[resident_evil]

Go for it; enjoy your termination of employment, loss of qualified immunity, prosecution for official oppression, and subsequent civil lawsuit. And that's if it's an auditor.... if it's someone like me, you might very well end up hurt or dead for accosting and attacking me on the street, if not then and there, then when I come looking for you a few weeks later.

That's a non sequitur. I asked you for a hypothetical example. Got one?

 

[freyasman]

Well, I'll not bother to correct your assertion because I was asking you to provide a positive scenario in which it was legal for law enforcement to ask for ID on the basis of some possible future crime. You gave me an example in which asking isn't legal.

Now give me one (preferably some) in which it is legal to ask.

Problem is, it's legal to ask, but illegal to demand ID "on the basis of some possible future crime"...... that's just the way it is. The only thing I can think of is if you had a guy open carrying but who also had a lot of prison ink, and even that one is gonna be a tough sell. Varg Freeborn is a firearms and self-defense instructor and he did 5 years hard time..... shit happens.
You don't get to violate a person's rights unless or until there is evidence of a crime.... what you think they might do later on don't matter. At all.... period. The end. Full [Unwelcome language removed] stop.

 

[resident_evil]

Problem is, it's legal to ask, but illegal to demand ID "on the basis of some possible future crime"...... that's just the way it is. The only thing I can think of is if you had a guy open carrying but who also had a lot of prison ink, and even that one is gonna be a tough sell. Varg Freeborn is a firearms and self-defense instructor and he did 5 years hard time..... shit happens.

Remember the Boy Scout troop leader marching kids and him carrying an AR? It is reasonable to stop him, control his AR, and ask him questions on the basis that the kids could be marched off to some open ditch to be shot dead. You might think it ridiculous but it is a valid concern if the officer can articulate it. Once the officer can determine the guy is just your regular Texas open carry crank, then the AR is returned and they are on their way. The reason such a stop is reasonable is because the behavior is extremely out of the ordinary.

You don't get to violate a person's rights unless or until there is evidence of a crime.... what you think they might do later on don't matter. At all.... period. The end. Full [Unwelcome language removed] stop.

Well, you have to realize that your point of view isn't the law. If you think you can beat ALL of society on your will alone that isn't very likely to happen. Don't kill anyone let the court validate your opinion.

 

[freyasman]

Remember the Boy Scout troop leader marching kids and him carrying an AR? It is reasonable to stop him, control his AR, and ask him questions on the basis that the kids could be marched off to some open ditch to be shot dead. You might think it ridiculous but it is a valid concern if the officer can articulate it. Once the officer can determine the guy is just your regular Texas open carry crank, then the AR is returned and they are on their way. The reason such a stop is reasonable is because the behavior is extremely out of the ordinary.


Well, you have to realize that your point of view isn't the law. If you think you can beat ALL of society on your will alone that isn't very likely to happen. Don't kill anyone let the court validate your opinion.

You keep going on as though this point is yet to be determined by the courts.... it isn't. The law is clear, the court precedents are clear, and this point is well-established. This isn't simply my opinion. If they ain't doing anything illegal you can ask, but you can't detain, you can't seize their property (cameras or firearms), they don't have to answer your questions, and you can't compel them to ID. Just because you articulate your fears about what you imagine could, maybe, possibly at some point in the future, happen on down the road, without any actual facts, your imaginary scenarios don't result in any legal obligation on the part of the citizens, no matter how good of a bullshit artist the officer is.

If they tell you to fvck off and leave them be, and you do anything but fvck off and leave them be, then you are the one committing a crime.

 

[freyasman]

You simply don't listen. The training is not about stopping the filming. It is about requiring identification for a valid articulable reason.

The first time law enforcement fails to answer to a public alarm where a mass shooting happens because of legal open carry is the day your court ruling will change. You see if many people open carried everyday then law enforcement couldn't legally (let alone logistically) stop everyone and question them about abnormal (i.e. suspicious) behavior, right? Well, as long as open carry draws attention police investigation will likely continue. And when it stops and there is a mass shooting the "right" will end.

Look at the video you shared of a Boy Scout leader walking with an AR and a bunch of kids. It was incumbent on that officer to investigate. He just needed to be able to articulate his concern better and in court he'd have prevailed.

Dude, don't piss away my right to conceal carry or open carry with pointless confrontational acts. The kind of acts that are defiant and confrontational because if we aren't reasonable and something drastic happens then state laws will change. State laws have trended more towards gun rights as of late, they don't need to be reversed.

BTW;
"The first time law enforcement fails to answer to a public alarm where a mass shooting happens because of legal open carry is the day your court ruling will change."
Actually not..... that exact thing happened in Colorado a few years back. Open carry is still legal, and it still is not considered a valid reason to stop, detain, force ID, or demand justification or an explanation of their lawful behavior from citizens.

I don't agree with a lot of laws or court decisions but I'm good with this one.... because I think it's better to live in a free society.

 

[freyasman]

 

[resident_evil]

BTW;
"The first time law enforcement fails to answer to a public alarm where a mass shooting happens because of legal open carry is the day your court ruling will change."
Actually not..... that exact thing happened in Colorado a few years back. Open carry is still legal, and it still is not considered a valid reason to stop, detain, force ID, or demand justification or an explanation of their lawful behavior from citizens.

I don't agree with a lot of laws or court decisions but I'm good with this one.... because I think it's better to live in a free society.

How about your link to this?

 

[resident_evil]

@freyasman

How about those examples I asked for of where cops can lawfully ask for ID on the basis of some crime about to be committed?