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The era of Justice* Gorsuch begins

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trapdoor

Governor
Now you're back to pretending that the Framers intended a situation where the Senate would refuse to advise and consent on any and all nominees, thereby negating a president's ability to fill positions, leaving our government crippled. The Framers did not envision that hyper-partisan wackjobs would simply refuse to engage in advise and consent. They viewed the Senate's role as a duty.
Yes, that's exactly what the "framers" intended, as they wanted the Senate and Congress to be a total check, if needed, on executive power. The "duty" of the Senate is discharged if it disagrees with the president and fails to act on his requests.

If you want something the "framers" didn't intend or expect, look at the alphabet soup of executive agencies that were created in the 20th century. They never expected legislators to give up their power to act, or not to act.
 

Bugsy McGurk

President
Yes, that's exactly what the "framers" intended, as they wanted the Senate and Congress to be a total check, if needed, on executive power. The "duty" of the Senate is discharged if it disagrees with the president and fails to act on his requests.

If you want something the "framers" didn't intend or expect, look at the alphabet soup of executive agencies that were created in the 20th century. They never expected legislators to give up their power to act, or not to act.
Absurd. No way the Framers envisioned some partisan wackjobs in the Senate refusing to even consider any and all presidential nominees. If they envisioned that they would not have included the advise and consent clause - they wanted to give the Senate the right to consider nominees and say yea or nay. They did not intend to give the Senate (much less one senator) the right to negate the president's right to have nominees considered on their merits.
 

Craig

Senator
Supporting Member
Yes, that's exactly what the "framers" intended, as they wanted the Senate and Congress to be a total check, if needed, on executive power. The "duty" of the Senate is discharged if it disagrees with the president and fails to act on his requests.

If you want something the "framers" didn't intend or expect, look at the alphabet soup of executive agencies that were created in the 20th century. They never expected legislators to give up their power to act, or not to act.
I will argue that the Founders most certainly did envision some sort of "alphabet soup" of agencies.

Hamilton was clear regarding the term general welfare...and was clear that the requirements, the exigencies, as he wrote, of the future were unknown...therefore, the term was as non specific as possible so as to not lock the nation into a bad bargain.

The founders were wise enough to understand that they did not know the future, hence the vagueness of some wording, "general welfare", "proper and necessary", as well as the inclusion of the amendment process, indicating a wisdom beyond that of normal people. These were people with an eye on the future with an understanding of the problems of the past.
 

Bugsy McGurk

President
I will argue that the Founders most certainly did envision some sort of "alphabet soup" of agencies.

Hamilton was clear regarding the term general welfare...and was clear that the requirements, the exigencies, as he wrote, of the future were unknown...therefore, the term was as non specific as possible so as to not lock the nation into a bad bargain.

The founders were wise enough to understand that they did not know the future, hence the vagueness of some wording, "general welfare", "proper and necessary", as well as the inclusion of the amendment process, indicating a wisdom beyond that of normal people. These were people with an eye on the future with an understanding of the problems of the past.
Wingers have such a strange view of the Constitution. They have no problem saying that the Framers intended to all a Senate to negate the president's power of appointment, while claiming that the Framers did not all intend to permit the formation of executive agencies.

Very strange.
 

trapdoor

Governor
I will argue that the Founders most certainly did envision some sort of "alphabet soup" of agencies.

Hamilton was clear regarding the term general welfare...and was clear that the requirements, the exigencies, as he wrote, of the future were unknown...therefore, the term was as non specific as possible so as to not lock the nation into a bad bargain.

The founders were wise enough to understand that they did not know the future, hence the vagueness of some wording, "general welfare", "proper and necessary", as well as the inclusion of the amendment process, indicating a wisdom beyond that of normal people. These were people with an eye on the future with an understanding of the problems of the past.
Hamilton was "clear" on that topic -- and only Hamilton. It is clear from the discussion and writing of other ratifiers, especially Madison, that if Hamilton's views had been generally held, the Constitution would not have been ratified. The founders were wise enough to incorporate a means for making changes to the structure of government -- via the amendment process. They didn't envision reinterpreting the document so it meant different things at different times.
 

Craig

Senator
Supporting Member
Hamilton was "clear" on that topic -- and only Hamilton. It is clear from the discussion and writing of other ratifiers, especially Madison, that if Hamilton's views had been generally held, the Constitution would not have been ratified. The founders were wise enough to incorporate a means for making changes to the structure of government -- via the amendment process. They didn't envision reinterpreting the document so it meant different things at different times.
Hamilton did pen the majority of the writings in The Federalist Papers in support of the Constitution...so..."only" Hamilton is simply an attempt to disregard those writings.

How is it you can ignore the vagueness of the words? Explain what "general welfare" means. Explain what "necessary and proper" means and how those phrases indicate that Congress doesn't have such power to create an agency.
 

trapdoor

Governor
Absurd. No way the Framers envisioned some partisan wackjobs in the Senate refusing to even consider any and all presidential nominees. If they envisioned that they would not have included the advise and consent clause - they wanted to give the Senate the right to consider nominees and say yea or nay. They did not intend to give the Senate (much less one senator) the right to negate the president's right to have nominees considered on their merits.
No way did they envision the president being able to make appointments without Senate consent -- I started to ask you to look up the word "consent" but I think its better if I go over to dictionary.com and get the definition so that we can avoid obfuscation:

consent, 1. verb; to permit, approve, or agree; comply or yield (often followed by to or an infinitive):
He consented to the proposal. We asked her permission, and she consented.
2.
Archaic. to agree in sentiment, opinion, etc.; be in harmony.

noun
3. permission, approval, or agreement; compliance; acquiescence:
He gave his consent to the marriage.
4. agreement in sentiment, opinion, a course of action, etc.

Noun or verb, the definition of consent is "permit or permission" -- if the Senate doesn't give the president permission, he can't make an appointment to SCOTUS. The Senate must vote in favor of giving permission -- if it does not act all, no consent has been given, and the president can't act.

There is no language requiring the Senate either to provide consent, nor to require a vote to deny its consent. It's INACTION is itself denial of permission to the president to make an appointment. You're attempting to insert requirements into the Constitution that are not there.
 

trapdoor

Governor
Hamilton did pen the majority of the writings in The Federalist Papers in support of the Constitution...so..."only" Hamilton is simply an attempt to disregard those writings.

How is it you can ignore the vagueness of the words? Explain what "general welfare" means. Explain what "necessary and proper" means and how those phrases indicate that Congress doesn't have such power to create an agency.
Hamilton, as rich a commentator as he was, was not in charge of inserting most language into the Constitution. That task fell to Madison, who had a diametrically opposed view of the words "general welfare." How is it you ignore his writings on the topic?

I'm editing this statement because I left a question of yours unanswered. You asked me "what does general welfare mean?" In the Constitution, in a definition eventually accepted by Hamilton, it was not a blank check for expanded powers. While president, Monroe probably defined it best as, "“to purposes of common defence, and of general, national, not local, or state, benefit.”
 

Craig

Senator
Supporting Member
Hamilton, as rich a commentator as he was, was not in charge of inserting most language into the Constitution. That task fell to Madison, who had a diametrically opposed view of the words "general welfare." How is it you ignore his writings on the topic?
I don't ignore Madison...but you again discredit Hamilton, who, once again, wrote the majority of the papers in support of the document.

So...once again...How is it you can ignore the vagueness of the words? Explain what "general welfare" means. Explain what "necessary and proper" means and how those phrases indicate that Congress doesn't have such power to create an agency.
 

trapdoor

Governor
I don't ignore Madison...but you again discredit Hamilton, who, once again, wrote the majority of the papers in support of the document.

So...once again...How is it you can ignore the vagueness of the words? Explain what "general welfare" means. Explain what "necessary and proper" means and how those phrases indicate that Congress doesn't have such power to create an agency.
Papers in support of the document are not the document itself, and I think Madison is the more authoritative source on the document itself. I'm not discrediting Hamilton -- he was the Bill Clinton of his time, a brilliant polymath who rather lacked a personal moral compass. I provided a definition of general welfare elsewhere.
 

Craig

Senator
Supporting Member
Papers in support of the document are not the document itself, and I think Madison is the more authoritative source on the document itself. I'm not discrediting Hamilton -- he was the Bill Clinton of his time, a brilliant polymath who rather lacked a personal moral compass. I provided a definition of general welfare elsewhere.
I think Hamilton is the more authoritative force. By far. And the more insightful and forward thinking. I think it is beyond obvious the language in the Constitution allows Congress to create agencies to handle the needs and demands of the nation.

There you have it.
 

trapdoor

Governor
I think Hamilton is the more authoritative force. By far. And the more insightful and forward thinking. I think it is beyond obvious the language in the Constitution allows Congress to create agencies to handle the needs and demands of the nation.

There you have it.
Based on what? In the 1800 presidential election, the issue of general welfare was really the only thing separating federalists and republicans. The republican Jefferson won, adopted the Madisonian view of general welfare, and that view was retained by all presidents for the next 60 years, and many of them even beyond the Civil War. The Hamiltonian position lay in a backwater until resurrected in the 1930s.

You may find it insightful and forward looking, but that doesnt' make it correct.
 

Craig

Senator
Supporting Member
Based on what? In the 1800 presidential election, the issue of general welfare was really the only thing separating federalists and republicans. The republican Jefferson won, adopted the Madisonian view of general welfare, and that view was retained by all presidents for the next 60 years, and many of them even beyond the Civil War. The Hamiltonian position lay in a backwater until resurrected in the 1930s.

You may find it insightful and forward looking, but that doesnt' make it correct.
Based on what he wrote and what has become of our nation.

Yes...I'd say his philosophies, which became dominate after some 60, 70, 100 years after the founding were insightful and forward thinking.
 

JackDallas

Senator
Supporting Member
This is why you're so miserable - you're too delusional to know that your hopes and dreams will never come true, and your unrealistic hopes and dreams consist of wishing for others to suffer. You live a very sad, wretched life.
I'm not wishing for others to suffer, I'm wishing for two criminals to pay for their crimes against the American people. There's a difference that might be too deep for you.
 

trapdoor

Governor
Based on what he wrote and what has become of our nation.

Yes...I'd say his philosophies, which became dominate after some 60, 70, 100 years after the founding were insightful and forward thinking.
"What he wrote" is insufficient basis for the authority of what he wrote. Madison, at least, could claim the authority of being primary editor of the Constitution. I'd say the view that prevailed for the longest duration of US history, the Madisonian position (that was favored by every president from Jefferson through at least Grant), would carry more authority.

But let's say I'm wrong. What authority does NOT fall under "general welfare?" Is there any limit on federal government whatsoever?
 

Craig

Senator
Supporting Member
"What he wrote" is insufficient basis for the authority of what he wrote. Madison, at least, could claim the authority of being primary editor of the Constitution. I'd say the view that prevailed for the longest duration of US history, the Madisonian position (that was favored by every president from Jefferson through at least Grant), would carry more authority.

But let's say I'm wrong. What authority does NOT fall under "general welfare?" Is there any limit on federal government whatsoever?
I want to begin with the math...

Jefferson to Grant...1801-1877. 76 years. Grant to Trump...1877-2017. 140 years.

Not much limit, no. Really...necessary and proper. The limits are "general". Legislation is supposed to apply to all. This is mirrored in the "common defense" language.

The Congress shall have Power ... To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

The FFs were not endowed with fortune tellers and crystal balls. They knew not what the future held. Jefferson wanted an agrarian society, a view that would simply prove somewhat foolish at the dawn of the industrial age.

Hamilton knew things could change and change rapidly, hence the vagueness of language, "general, "common"...and the final authority, all laws "necessary and proper" to achieve those mandated tasks.

To ensure folks understood, one final authority was written in...a little after the initial agreement...

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

FDR considered some additional, unenumerated, rights, retained by the people...and btw, The New Deal was largely passed by 1936...and that is 81 years ago. This too is a longer period than Jefferson to Grant.

Among these are:

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.
 

trapdoor

Governor
I want to begin with the math...

Jefferson to Grant...1801-1877. 76 years. Grant to Trump...1877-2017. 140 years.

Not much limit, no. Really...necessary and proper. The limits are "general". Legislation is supposed to apply to all. This is mirrored in the "common defense" language.

The Congress shall have Power ... To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

The FFs were not endowed with fortune tellers and crystal balls. They knew not what the future held. Jefferson wanted an agrarian society, a view that would simply prove somewhat foolish at the dawn of the industrial age.

Hamilton knew things could change and change rapidly, hence the vagueness of language, "general, "common"...and the final authority, all laws "necessary and proper" to achieve those mandated tasks.

To ensure folks understood, one final authority was written in...a little after the initial agreement...

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

FDR considered some additional, unenumerated, rights, retained by the people...and btw, The New Deal was largely passed by 1936...and that is 81 years ago. This too is a longer period than Jefferson to Grant.

Among these are:

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.
Like all mathematics, the formula is only as good as the inputs. And the real range of dates really skips the era from Grant to FDR, and the court case Butler v. US which resurrected the Hamiltonian view in 1936. I'll stipulate that there was a period between the Civil War and the 1930s where there was no well-defined legal view of general welfare, but it acquired the "Hamiltonian" view as a practical matter only after that time (and only after FDR's threat to pack the Supreme Court cowed certain justices into ruling in favor of New Deal programs).

While you only may be reading too much into the general welfare clause, you are definitely reading too much into the necessary and proper clause which only refers to the foregoing powers -- ie, those listed in Article 1, section 8 after the phrase "Congress shall have the power too..."

FDR's "rights" don't appear in the Bill of Rights. Neither are they mentioned as authorities granted to Congress or the executive -- save for an expansive reading of "general" in "general welfare." Read as its primary author, Madison, said it should be read, general welfare doesn't grant these authorities either. At most, the 9th and 10th Amendments said the government can't interfere with, for example, the "right to a good education." It makes no mention of providing such an education.

I'm going to repeat my question -- given the expansive reading of general welfare you favor, what is the government unable to do? Is it a government of limited powers or an indefinite one subject to particular exceptions?
 

Craig

Senator
Supporting Member
Like all mathematics, the formula is only as good as the inputs. And the real range of dates really skips the era from Grant to FDR, and the court case Butler v. US which resurrected the Hamiltonian view in 1936. I'll stipulate that there was a period between the Civil War and the 1930s where there was no well-defined legal view of general welfare, but it acquired the "Hamiltonian" view as a practical matter only after that time (and only after FDR's threat to pack the Supreme Court cowed certain justices into ruling in favor of New Deal programs).

While you only may be reading too much into the general welfare clause, you are definitely reading too much into the necessary and proper clause which only refers to the foregoing powers -- ie, those listed in Article 1, section 8 after the phrase "Congress shall have the power too..."

FDR's "rights" don't appear in the Bill of Rights. Neither are they mentioned as authorities granted to Congress or the executive -- save for an expansive reading of "general" in "general welfare." Read as its primary author, Madison, said it should be read, general welfare doesn't grant these authorities either. At most, the 9th and 10th Amendments said the government can't interfere with, for example, the "right to a good education." It makes no mention of providing such an education.

I'm going to repeat my question -- given the expansive reading of general welfare you favor, what is the government unable to do? Is it a government of limited powers or an indefinite one subject to particular exceptions?
As I answered, there are very few limits on the powers of the government as long as their actions were dedicated to the mission statement. The word Hamilton used was plenary.

Many of the limits are spelled out directly. Things like...the VP and the President CANNOT live in the state.

The 9th Amendment makes it clear that the enumerated rights listed in Article One, Section 8, are not the only rights retained by the people. The language could not be clearer.
 

Bugsy McGurk

President
No way did they envision the president being able to make appointments without Senate consent -- I started to ask you to look up the word "consent" but I think its better if I go over to dictionary.com and get the definition so that we can avoid obfuscation:

consent, 1. verb; to permit, approve, or agree; comply or yield (often followed by to or an infinitive):
He consented to the proposal. We asked her permission, and she consented.
2.
Archaic. to agree in sentiment, opinion, etc.; be in harmony.

noun
3. permission, approval, or agreement; compliance; acquiescence:
He gave his consent to the marriage.
4. agreement in sentiment, opinion, a course of action, etc.

Noun or verb, the definition of consent is "permit or permission" -- if the Senate doesn't give the president permission, he can't make an appointment to SCOTUS. The Senate must vote in favor of giving permission -- if it does not act all, no consent has been given, and the president can't act.

There is no language requiring the Senate either to provide consent, nor to require a vote to deny its consent. It's INACTION is itself denial of permission to the president to make an appointment. You're attempting to insert requirements into the Constitution that are not there.
As you know, I didn't say that presidents can make such appointments without the Senate's consent. I did say that the Framers intended that the Senate either advise or consent - say yea or nay. The Framers did not envision that partisan wackjobs would seek to negate the presidential power to fill seats by refusing outright to even consider any nominees. Making it even worse, the Senate did not even make such a decision as to Obama's nominee - only Mitch McConnell did. A constitutional abomination.
 

trapdoor

Governor
As I answered, there are very few limits on the powers of the government as long as their actions were dedicated to the mission statement. The word Hamilton used was plenary.

Many of the limits are spelled out directly. Things like...the VP and the President CANNOT live in the state.

The 9th Amendment makes it clear that the enumerated rights listed in Article One, Section 8, are not the only rights retained by the people. The language could not be clearer.
There is a difference between rights retained by the people, and the authority of the government to help the people achieve those rights.

Suffice it to say I think you have the Constitution inverted. The goal of the people writing it (apparently aside from Hamilton), was to provide the government with more authority than it had held under the Article of Confederation -- while still confining it to limits, giving it its stated authorities and no more. The general welfare is not a stated authority -- it's a caption to the stated authority according to Madison, who was the person who put the phrase into the document.

If general welfare is a plenary power, why then is there a need to state that Congress has the power to tax? Couldn't congress merely say, "Taxation is good for the general welfare," and then create taxes? Even Hamilton said government was limited, writing in the Federalist 84 that there was no need for a Bill of Rights, "For why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do? Why, for instance, should it be said, that the liberty of the press shall not be restrained, when no power is given by which restrictions may be imposed? I will not contend that such a provision would confer a regulating power; but it is evident that it would furnish, to men disposed to usurp, a plausible pretence for claiming that power."

If your reading of general welfare prevailed, then this statement by Hamilton would be provable wrong, as Congress could (without any enabling authority) declare that restraining the liberty of the press was good for the general welfare, and would have the exact authority under the general welfare clause that Hamilton said it lacked, even with the presence of that clause.

But this is an example of pure politics and the way in which Hamilton himself was a man out of time, much more suited to the 20th century than the 18th. When he wanted the government limited, he said its limits were strict. Later, when he was in administration and wanted more power to "do things" he discovered the "plenary" nature of general welfare.
 
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