The real "Hands up, don't shoot"?

[EatTheRich]

What kind of work do you do. Do you consider a shop foreman a worker or a capitalist pig? Something else? How about a department manager?

I am a clerk in a bookstore. I consider a shop foreman a worker, albeit a privileged one. Not sure what you mean by a "department manager" (I manage several departments at work but am clearly a wage-earner) but if you mean someone with a white-collar job I'd consider that person petty-bourgeois ... in a tenuous position between the two great classes, a potential ally of the workers (and someone to whom concessions can permissibly be made under appropriate circumstances), but more likely in a capitalist country to follow the lead of the bourgeois class. Farmers are petty-bourgeois too (usually; tenant farmers, sharecroppers, farmhands, and agribusiness investors excepted) but because of their particular social circumstances are unusually receptive to a tactically astute (i.e., not ultraleftist) communist program.

 

[Bugsy McGurk]

Where are Al Sharpton and Barack Obama calling for ju$tice? Where is Bill DiBlasio inciting people to kill cops in revenge? Where are the major "news" networks? Where are our watchdog lefties on PJ?

A man and his 6-year old son were gunned down by two cops, while the man allegedly had his hands up.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/jeremy-mardis-father-hands-up_56413a0de4b0307f2caeb86b

Huff Post and CBS report it, and you claim "lefties" and the networks have ignored it.

Classic.

;-)

 

[EatTheRich]

Also, please clearly define "worker" since most Americans who aren't on welfare fit that definition.

I would add that most people on welfare are just workers who aren't able to get jobs (or, more often, people who need to supplement their income from wages with the social wage that the working class has won in struggle). The deepest division in the working class is that between employed and unemployed workers ... but unemployment is a built-in part of the capitalist system without which it wouldn't function. If you thank capitalists for giving you a job, the very least you can do is also thank the unemployed for making it possible for the capitalists to do so.

 

[Max R.]

I am a clerk in a bookstore. I consider a shop foreman a worker, albeit a privileged one. Not sure what you mean by a "department manager" (I manage several departments at work but am clearly a wage-earner) but if you mean someone with a white-collar job I'd consider that person petty-bourgeois ... in a tenuous position between the two great classes, a potential ally of the workers (and someone to whom concessions can permissibly be made under appropriate circumstances), but more likely in a capitalist country to follow the lead of the bourgeois class. Farmers are petty-bourgeois too (usually; tenant farmers, sharecroppers, farmhands, and agribusiness investors excepted) but because of their particular social circumstances are unusually receptive to a tactically astute (i.e., not ultraleftist) communist program.

Well, you have many of the code words down. You don't think a secretary busting her ass all day at a desk is a "worker" because she's a bourgeois "white-collar" worker, yet you consider yourself a member of the proletariat because you work in a bookstore and manage several departments. What I don't understand why you didn't use the term Proletariat like Marx did? You're obviously a Marxist, so why not be honest and come out of that Marxist closet? Why hide your true beliefs? Are you afraid the NSA or CIA will getcha? Too late, kid. Your file is already locked into the NSA data bank and you are deemed...wait for it....harmless. Have a really nice day, citizen!

http://www.bl.uk/learning/histcitizen/21cc/utopia/methods1/bourgeoisie1/bourgeoisie.html
Marx viewed the unfolding process of history as follows:

• First in ancient and mediaeval society the landed and wealthy had oppressed the slaves and the poorest plebeians and labourers.
• Then, as new technologies were invented and market forces grew stronger, everything changed. The middle classes - gaining wealth and power from trade and manufacture - challenged the power and authority of the old rulers.
• But at this stage a new struggle was formed between the bourgeoisie (the property owning class) and the proletariat (the industrial working class).

Marx argued that the capitalist bourgeoisie mercilessly exploited the proletariat. He recognised that the work carried out by the proletariat created great wealth for the capitalist. The products created in the factory (the material outcome of the workers' labour) were sold for more than the value of the labour itself i.e. more than the workers' wages. For instance, the factory worker may get paid £2 to produce a yard of cloth. The capitalist then sells the cloth for £5. In this way, the capitalist, who controls the process of production, makes a profit. But the worker does not benefit from this added value, and fails to benefit from the fruits of his/her own labour.

 

[Max R.]

...If you thank capitalists for giving you a job, the very least you can do is also thank the unemployed for making it possible for the capitalists to do so.

By that logic, you should thank all those who served and died for our nation so you have the freedom to work as you please, go freely as you please and have the leisure time to spout Marxism on an Internet forum. Obviously you'd never do such a thing yourself since you hate the very system which gives you so much opportunity and freedom.

 

[marvin martian]

I am a clerk in a bookstore. I consider a shop foreman a worker, albeit a privileged one. Not sure what you mean by a "department manager" (I manage several departments at work but am clearly a wage-earner) but if you mean someone with a white-collar job I'd consider that person petty-bourgeois ... in a tenuous position between the two great classes, a potential ally of the workers (and someone to whom concessions can permissibly be made under appropriate circumstances), but more likely in a capitalist country to follow the lead of the bourgeois class. Farmers are petty-bourgeois too (usually; tenant farmers, sharecroppers, farmhands, and agribusiness investors excepted) but because of their particular social circumstances are unusually receptive to a tactically astute (i.e., not ultraleftist) communist program.

I didn't realize you're a diehard communist. Can you provide an example of a society where communism worked; i.e. didn't result in genocide, mass murder, mass starvation or all of the above?

 

[Max R.]

I didn't realize you're a diehard communist. Can you provide an example of a society where communism worked; i.e. didn't result in genocide, mass murder, mass starvation or all of the above?

1. Technically he's a Marxist. A subtle difference, but one which, IMHO, ends up the same way.

2. I'm sure he can justify it since most of those murdered were "petty-bourgeois" and, thus, deserved it for the betterment of mankind.

 

[EatTheRich]

Well, you have many of the code words down. You don't think a secretary busting her ass all day at a desk is a "worker" because she's a bourgeois "white-collar" worker, yet you consider yourself a member of the proletariat because you work in a bookstore and manage several departments.

Incorrect. I do consider secretaries workers, and in fact I used to be a secretary. You know very well that the 'white-collar workers' who are 'in management' that I was talking about are the people in executive positions in the bureaucracy of public or private business. That's why I try to avoid the imprecise language of 'white-collar' and 'management' in the first place, because it obscures real class differences.

What I don't understand why you didn't use the term Proletariat like Marx did? You're obviously a Marxist, so why not be honest and come out of that Marxist closet? Why hide your true beliefs?

I had no intention to hide my Marxist beliefs, which I have openly proclaimed on several occasions. I didn't consider using the term proletarian to add clarity to that particular discussion (and I make little distinction between 'workers' and 'proletarians,' although perhaps I should reserve the term 'worker' for those who are employed and 'proletarian' for our entire class regardless of employment status), although I have used the term at other times as a search of the archives would prove.

Are you afraid the NSA or CIA will getcha? Too late, kid. Your file is already locked into the NSA data bank and you are deemed...wait for it....harmless. Have a really nice day, citizen!

Since I am not particularly politically active (more a bourgeois-bohemian debater than a militant professional Bolshevik), I don't worry much about getting NSA or CIA attention. That could change, though, if 1) I became involved in a high-profile political battle, perhaps to defend those close to me; 2) an ultra-right government swept into power; 3) the U.S. got into a shooting war with a workers' state such as N. Korea, Cuba, or China.

 

[EatTheRich]

By that logic, you should thank all those who served and died for our nation so you have the freedom to work as you please, go freely as you please and have the leisure time to spout Marxism on an Internet forum. Obviously you'd never do such a thing yourself since you hate the very system which gives you so much opportunity and freedom.

To the extent that I have the 'freedom to work as I please' (and not 'work or starve') it's because of the unions and their fight against this country's ruling class. To the extent that I can 'go freely as I please' it's because of radicals who have fought the government's attempts to militarize our society (creating national ID cards, warrantless searches, checkpoints, etc.). To the extent that I have free speech, it's again because of radical resistance, often communist-led, to government efforts to suppress it.

 

[EatTheRich]

I didn't realize you're a diehard communist. Can you provide an example of a society where communism worked; i.e. didn't result in genocide, mass murder, mass starvation or all of the above?

Communism has worked in American society: for instance, it propelled the civil rights movement to victory. But I imagine you are talking about the prospects for a revolution that is successful in overthrowing the capitalist class. In that case, we have:

The Paris Commune (as with many of the other examples, this works only if you don't count the murderous reprisals by the capitalists after the overthrow of the communist government).
East Germany (unless you want to count the people killed trying to cross the Berlin Wall as 'mass murder,' in which case the killings of Black people by police on a much larger scale in the United States is also mass murder).
Bulgaria.
Cuba (unless you count killings by U.S.-backed terrorists).
Algeria.
Grenada.
Burkina Faso.

Now name 7 countries where capitalism worked, by the same criteria?

 

[Max R.]

Incorrect. I do consider secretaries workers, and in fact I used to be a secretary. You know very well that the 'white-collar workers' who are 'in management' that I was talking about are the people in executive positions in the bureaucracy of public or private business. ...

No, I did not since they're your code words. Most people associate "white collar" jobs with office workers and "blue collar" jobs with laborers/manual workers. People who work in stores in charge of several departments aren't proles, they're bourgeoisie.

http://smallbusiness.chron.com/bluecollar-worker-whitecollar-worker-11074.html
The terms "blue collar" and "white collar" are occupational classifications that distinguish workers who perform manual labor from workers who perform professional jobs. Historically, blue-collar workers wore uniforms, usually blue, and worked in trade occupations. White-collar workers typically wore white, button down shirts. and worked in office settings. Other aspects that distinguish blue-collar and white-collar workers include earnings and education level.


Blue Collar
Blue-collar workers perform labor jobs and typically work with their hands. The skills necessary for blue-collar work vary by occupation. Some blue-collar occupations require highly skilled personnel who are formally trained and certified. These workers include aircraft mechanics, plumbers, electricians and structural workers. Many blue-collar employers hire unskilled and low-skilled workers to perform simple tasks such as cleaning, maintenance and assembly line work.

White Collar
White-collar workers usually perform job duties in an office setting. They are highly skilled and formally trained professionals. Many white-collar workers, such as accountants, bankers, attorneys and real estate agents, provide professional services to clients. Other white-collar workers, such as engineers and architects, provide services to businesses, corporations and government agencies.

 

[Max R.]

To the extent that I have the 'freedom to work as I please' (and not 'work or starve') it's because of the unions and their fight against this country's ruling class. To the extent that I can 'go freely as I please' it's because of radicals who have fought the government's attempts to militarize our society (creating national ID cards, warrantless searches, checkpoints, etc.). To the extent that I have free speech, it's again because of radical resistance, often communist-led, to government efforts to suppress it.

Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were radicals, but not communists. Labor Unions, like democracy, allows people to band together for a common cause, but they aren't communists. I doubt very many members of unions in the US consider themselves to be communists or socialists.

 

[EatTheRich]

Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were radicals, but not communists. Labor Unions, like democracy, allows people to band together for a common cause, but they aren't communists. I doubt very many members of unions in the US consider themselves to be communists or socialists.

Not anymore. During the 1930s and 1940s, many major unions, from the UAW to the International Ladies' Garment Workers' Union to the United Electrical Workers', were communist/socialist-led. Some, such as the American Railway Union and United Mine Workers, had socialist leaderships going all the way back to the 1870s. Many of those with conservative leaderships, such as the Teamsters' Union, the National Education Association, and the International Longshore Workers' Union, had locals with socialist leaderships that led some of the most important fights in those unions' histories.

The unions were purged by conservative business unionists taking advantage of the repressive legislation and police-state methods of the Truman/McCarthy-era witch hunt. For example, the Taft-Hartley Act, passed over Truman's veto, unconstitutionally banned labor unions from electing communist leaders. The purge of the unions' militant left coincided with the beginning of the decline of union influence.

 

[Max R.]

Not anymore. During the 1930s and 1940s, many major unions, from the UAW to the International Ladies' Garment Workers' Union to the United Electrical Workers', were communist/socialist-led......

Yeah, the execution of Trotsky and Stalinism put a damper on the who "Reds" thing.

 

[EatTheRich]

Yeah, the execution of Trotsky and Stalinism put a damper on the who "Reds" thing.

Or to put it another way, Stalin acted as an agent of counterrevolution.