Unions Bankrupt Another Great American Company.

[TomFitz]

All that is true because your neigbors and the other employers were union, so the companies that you worked for had to pay decent wages to attract people that would have gone elsewhere.

You wouldn't have done half as well as you did if you were in a "right to work" state.

 

[Old Ridge Runner]

look at the financial results for Caterpillar. They are near a 52 week high in stock price and are earning $7 per share.

They are going to get rid of workers that your link says make "as much as" $30 per hour to hire people making less than $18 per hour. They have moved jobs to China. Face it....this is a prime example of why unions exist at all. The company says that .50 per hour is all they need to keep the jobs in Canada....according to your link. The management of Caterpillar sucks.

I disagree, the main reason that jobs initially left for places such as China was the government tax policies and unreasonable union demands. However, there are many people in this country now that would kill to have a job paying $18 and hour. It is less that what current employees were making in Canada, but with the job situation here in the US, it is a great wage.

 

[MaryAnne]

And the unions did not give in to any lose of benifits. When I was in the CWA, whenever we negotiated a contract we never gave up any benifits, it is union policy ask for the moon ans settle for sunshine and never give up anything you already have no matter what.

How many years has it been since you were in the Union? One thing is sure you know little about the recent past with Unions and companies. They gave up plenty!

 

[MaryAnne]

Th 50's was a different era. We were just out of a major war and going into a second one with Korea. The mills were still up and operating in a war mode. Unions back than didn't have the attitude of killing the goose that layed the golden egg either. Pensions and benifits weren't as massive as they were today with the companies paying the whole cost of the pensions. That was part of it back then.

That is funny! I well remember the strikes employees marched in to even get decent wages and Health Care .Trust me,I know well, I lived them.

And CEO's did not make off like bandits then. Companies fought every step of the way against decent wages.

 

[MaryAnne]

"Pays some of the highest wages in our area." What is that a $1.50 above minimum wage?

You noticed that too?

 

[MaryAnne]

years ago companies provided pensions. it was common that the pension was part of your compensation. in the 70s William E Simon was secretary of the treasury. He changed the rules related to how a company capitalized their pensions. Then he left government service and started a company called "Wesray". They raided companies that had fully funded their pensions, lent the pension money to themselves and had the company "forgive" the loans....then they'd sell the company. The now underfunded pensions were in compliance with Simon's rules and so the buyers were typically not aware of the new liability. Lots of companies were left without the money to pay retirement benefits.....but Simon became quite wealthy....in much the same way that Bain and Romney got their money.

Look....you guys argue against unions, saying "if the worker doesn't like what the employer wants to pay they should go elsewhere", but don't seem to apply the same thought process to the unions...."if the worker doesn't want to belong to a union they should go to a non-union company".....your logic sucks, but if you want to think it applies to one case then it certainly applies in the other.

The reasoning for not having a "right to work" law as they are usually written, is that the employer can use threats against employees to get rid of the union. If the union negotiates for wages and benefits for workers, how does it make sense to you that a worker can refuse to pay the dues to the union, but at the same time take advantage of the union negotiations?

There is no doubt that some unions became abusive....there is also no doubt that some CEOs are abusive. The CEO of United HealthCare got a $100 million paycheck last year. How could you argue to the workers that they have no right to demand higher wages when that kind of information hits the news? I worked for a company that a week after they had announced to the employees that the average raise that year would be 1% and only the top 5% could get a 3% raise.....the CFO got a raise in excess of 50%....At that moment I'd have voted for a union.

Wesray sure sounds like Bain!

 

[middleview]

GM execs said they were headed to chapter 7, not chapter 11. Big difference.

 

[MaryAnne]

Here is another thing to consider. Caterpillar has closed down their plant in Canada and are moving it to Indiana, why because it is a right to work state. Spokemen stated that the union had locked out employees over contract disputes.

http://www.thestarpress.com/article/20120204/NEWS01/202040337/Caterpillar-closes-locomotive-plant-Canada-jobs-could-move-Muncie-s-Progress-Rail

Gee,that is funny,Caterpillar just opened up a huge Distribution Center across from the Vocational school about a mile from me. Republicans would like to make this a RTW state,but after the drubbing they got when they brought a bill against Unions,Kasich is not so hot for that now. Cons would still like to present a bill,but Kasich knows better.The Firefighters,Police and Teachers already hate his guts.

Caterpillar is shipping many of it's jobs back to the states because it just costs too much to ship those big suckers.

 

[MaryAnne]

look at the financial results for Caterpillar. They are near a 52 week high in stock price and are earning $7 per share.

They are going to get rid of workers that your link says make "as much as" $30 per hour to hire people making less than $18 per hour. They have moved jobs to China. Face it....this is a prime example of why unions exist at all. The company says that .50 per hour is all they need to keep the jobs in Canada....according to your link. The management of Caterpillar sucks.

I never say this,but he is making that up. Caterpillar is shipping jobs back to the states, not the other way around.

 

[Sgt Staples]

I guess saving a million plus jobs and two companies at the core of the US industrial economy is bad.

The core problems with GM and Chrysler haven't been fixed, they still owe the taxpayer tens of billions of dollars, and since the restructuring that would have taken place didn't, they will either ultimately fail or become endless government subsidies as they are now. That is until the juice machine runs dry.

 

[TomFitz]

Disagree all you want, but the proof is in the pudding. You got a middle class wage because your employers had to compete with unionized labor rates. That's why working class America entered the middle class.

It didn't happen because of a fraud called "trickle down ecomomics". By then, the conservatives and the business interests were busy reversing the rules that created the middle class and the consumer market.

 

[MaryAnne]

The core problems with GM and Chrysler haven't been fixed, they still owe the taxpayer tens of billions of dollars, and since the restructuring that would have taken place didn't, they will either ultimately fail or become endless government subsidies as they are now. That is until the juice machine runs dry.

Once GM got rid of the deadwood CEO's the place turned around. I know that irks but is still fact. And the money is being paid back and it is not billions.

 

[Old Ridge Runner]

How many years has it been since you were in the Union? One thing is sure you know little about the recent past with Unions and companies. They gave up plenty!

It's been quite awhile, 18 years to be exact. They apparently didn't give up alot in Canada.

 

[Old Ridge Runner]

That is funny! I well remember the strikes employees marched in to even get decent wages and Health Care .Trust me,I know well, I lived them.

And CEO's did not make off like bandits then. Companies fought every step of the way against decent wages.

And I remember my father loosing his job and my parents loosing their house because of the union doing nothing to help my father when he was layed off. I also remember the strikes my father was in with the D.C. Transit company in the 50's and the union telling him that if he was not on the picket line he could not take a parttime job to keep his family fed, and that he would only get paid by the union if was on the picket line. I know about unions.

 

[Old Ridge Runner]

Gee,that is funny,Caterpillar just opened up a huge Distribution Center across from the Vocational school about a mile from me. Republicans would like to make this a RTW state,but after the drubbing they got when they brought a bill against Unions,Kasich is not so hot for that now. Cons would still like to present a bill,but Kasich knows better.The Firefighters,Police and Teachers already hate his guts.

Caterpillar is shipping many of it's jobs back to the states because it just costs too much to ship those big suckers.

Cost to much in wages too. That was another reason for them moving the jobs back home. I would imagine that the state and/or local government is giving them a break on taxes as well, which Canada would not do to keep them there despite the high rages.

 

[Old Ridge Runner]

The core problems with GM and Chrysler haven't been fixed, they still owe the taxpayer tens of billions of dollars, and since the restructuring that would have taken place didn't, they will either ultimately fail or become endless government subsidies as they are now. That is until the juice machine runs dry.

Chrysler already is, this is the second bailout for them and I suspect that number three is just down the road.

 

[Old Ridge Runner]

Disagree all you want, but the proof is in the pudding. You got a middle class wage because your employers had to compete with unionized labor rates. That's why working class America entered the middle class.

If this is true, than why don't the unions have a bigger share of private industry than they do?

 

[Old Ridge Runner]

Once GM got rid of the deadwood CEO's the place turned around. I know that irks but is still fact. And the money is being paid back and it is not billions.

Yep, and once they get rid of those union workers that are smoking dope and binge drinking on their lunch breaks they'll be flying high, won't they.

 

[Old Ridge Runner]

Here is hwa the union big wigs do for their rank and file:

http://townhall.com/columnists/kyleolson/2012/02/07/eag_exclusive_teachers_union_staffers_set_sail_on_7day_caribbean_cruise

Imagine your organization is facing attacks from all sides. Imagine it’s losing members and revenue. Imagine governors and mayors – of both political parties – publicly denouncing your industry as “broken” and move swiftly to stifle your power and influence, while you flail away helplessly.

What to do? What else to do but go down drinking?

That’s what members of the National Education Association’s National Staff Organization have apparently decided. The NSO is an association of sorts for teachers’ union staff – political and communications types.

Following an “Advocacy Retreat” with the theme “Building Our Unionism,” members set sail on a 7-day cruise from Miami on February 5th “with stops at Cozumel, Grand Cayman Island and Isla Roatan.” Sounds fun! [In case the Facebook link disappears, never fear: here’s a PDF of the NSO newsletter.]

Guess what union staff? There are going to be cameras all over the ship documenting your every move – from every Fuzzy Navel to every game of shuffle board. Just think how your rank-and-file members might appreciate seeing all the “fun in the sun” you’re having, courtesy of their dues dollars.

Dues payers – especially those in states with compulsory unionism – can think fondly this week about their “employees” cavorting in the Caribbean as they’re looking at layoffs, decreased pay and increased insurance co-pays.

(Technically, NEA staffers exist to serve the union members. That might come as a surprise to some, considering that those roles have been reversed for decades.)

Incredibly, this isn’t the first cruise NEA staffers have taken. Last year, the destination was the Mexican Rivera, according to the trip’s contact person. Next year, who knows? As long as the members keep paying, who cares?

As the union staffers set sail, I hope they’ll remember the eyes of their dues-paying members are on them. Bon voyage!

It seems like the big wigs do a hell of alot more for themselves than they do for the rank and file, all with the rank and file's money.

 

[Sgt Staples]

Once GM got rid of the deadwood CEO's the place turned around. I know that irks but is still fact. And the money is being paid back and it is not billions.

GM owes the taxpayers 25 billion; look it up. That money will most likely never be paid back. GM is also receiving additional tens of millions in subsidies on the Chevy volt, a car so bad, the government has to pay you to buy it.

Union Pensions at GM are literally 10's of billions in the red, and that was never addressed in the bailout.

And , back when we used to be a free country, the Free Market System was a PROFIT and LOSS system where a badly managed or mis-managed company failed and a properly managed company succeeded. Unions have only added to the problem with strike threats and unsustainable pension demands whether the company agreed to them or not.

When we penalize Ford Motor Company by using their tax dollars, (along with the rest of ours) to bail out their competitor, we are punishing success and rewarding failure.

Add to this the costs, such as CAFE standards, of government mandates some of which are so expensive to achieve, if they can be achieved at all, and you are making it much harder to run a such an enterprise successfully.

GM and Chrysler's competitors, the taxpayers and the Free market, all LOST. Any business that would have been lost by GM and Chrysler would have swung over to successfully run companies. And a normal bankruptcy proceeding would have resolved the pension and benefit issues which will eventually come to a head again.

We've gotten some short term gain, which will eventually cause long term pain.